What if...

[Chieftess]

Here's a couple more whatifs. (I was actually thinking of starting a thread like this last week myself)

- What if America had decided to keep all of Mexico after the US-Mexican war? (This actually was debated in congress according to the History Channel).

I think the Civil War still would have happened, and fractured the US into maybe 3 factions. (North, South, and Mexicans wanting independence) Would've been both Mexico and the South vs. the North. The outcome might've been different, which in turn, would affect WWI, and possibly WWII (if that happened at all).

- What if the Americas (pre-Columbus) was allowed to develop on its' own? (i.e., suppose Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia and a bunch of islands didn't exist)

With the Inca pushing tribes to the north (Tarascans), and tribes being pushed south into Mexico from the Rockies, civilization would've started to flourish. I think it was just starting to - despite being maybe 2,500-3,000 years behind by 1500AD. If you want to go by the law of averages (1500BC = Bronze Age, 750BC Late Bronze Age, 500BC = Iron Age, 500AD = Middle Ages, etc.), you would've seen the development of bronze in Mesoamerica, the fall of the Aztecs after maybe a century (I think they still had some fight in them), more agressive tribes around the coastal areas of the Gulf/Carribean (Caribs - perhaps the Americas version of the Scythians - were pushing out the peaceful tribes). The Mississippi was starting to have civilizations pop up through out the river system. (They were in decline, but probably would've rose again, especially with Tarascan traders if they made it that far. Although, I think the west coast would've been explored/traded with first).

After maybe 500 years, you'd have many tiny civilizations around the Gulf/Carribean region, and probably a few confederacies around the Great Lakes. The southern part of South America was sparesly populated, so I don't think many civilizations would've formed there. Since there's no horses, that means foot travel only, and probably smaller nations, like the size of Serbia or Hungary being the norm - granted, there are exceptions like the Inca.

(I'll make a longer version later)

What if the US didn't have Manifest Destiny? (i.e., just remained colonial)
What if Rome hadn't fallen and was able to defeat the Germans, Huns, Visigoths, etc.? In a similar vein, what if they didn't split? (assuming they still defeated the invaders)
What if the Dutch (who were the first to Brazil) had given the Inca musket technology before the Spanish conquered them?


I'll save these for debate - gotta go to work.

 

[drudkh44]

the world would be a better place

 

[Tee Kay]

What if the Dutch (who were the first to Brazil) had given the Inca musket technology before the Spanish conquered them?

The Spanish gained control of Peru not by brute force, but by trickery + the Incan's own guillability + European epidemic. However, after the Incans realised they've been had, the rebels, who knew the local terrain, may have a better chance of fighting back.
Perhaps they succeed. Maybe they managed to reorganise themselves and set up a small state up in the Andes in Cuzco. Maybe other South American states will follow suit.

These states are likely to adopt some European aspect of life eg Christianity, but will likely to maintain traditional aspects such as system of government. Many, eg smaller states along the coast, may become European protectorates and over time annex into the colonies, but some, likely Incans and inland Amazonian kingdoms, may be more hostile towards Europeans.

By 1800 there would be several native states and European colonies coexisting uneasily in South America. I would expect the strongest of them will be the Incan State and Amazonian kingdoms. I would also expect that as soon as the colonies gain their independence a continental - wide war would break out between former colonies and former colonies and natives and natives and former colonies and natives over land and cultural differences.

 

[drudkh44]

These states are likely to adopt some European aspect of life eg Christianity

you sure about that one??

 

[Plotinus]

er,, newton was an occultist

Yes, and a Christian. He spent half his time writing commentaries on the book of Revelation.

and 'do re me' is in no way christian...

Do you know what "Do re me" actually means? It comes from the following eighth-century hymn to John the Baptist:

Ut queant laxis
Resonare fibris
Mira gestorum
Famuli tuorum
Solve polluti
Labii reatum

("So that your servants may sing at the tops of their voices the wonders of your deeds, absolve the sin from their stained lips".)

Each line began on a higher pitch. Guido took the first syllable of each one to create a singable scale that was easy to remember. Later, "Ut" became "Do", and an extra one, "Ti", was added to the end to create an octave: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do. So there you go: if Christianity hadn't existed, we wouldn't have The Sound of Music. Not such a great legacy after all, perhaps.

What if the US didn't have Manifest Destiny? (i.e., just remained colonial)

I'm not sure what you mean by this - surely the doctrine of "Manifest Destiny" was a post-colonial development, that is, it appeared in the nineteenth century? I don't know how much of an impact it really made on the world, though. I'm sure that the US would have come to occupy most of the area that it does even without it, and that it would have been no more or less imperialistic without it.

What if the Dutch (who were the first to Brazil) had given the Inca musket technology before the Spanish conquered them?

I don't know enough about the Inca to say, but I bet it would have been the same as what happened in western and central Africa: all the chieftains who had previously been forced to submit to the central government suddenly had more powerful warriors and could break away. This is what caused Kongo to splinter and collapse. As I understand it, the Inca were ruled by a highly autocratic despotism: I suspect that if muskets had been made suddenly available to them, it would have removed the emperor's advantage over his vassals and resulted in chaos.

 

[Dell19]

These states are likely to adopt some European aspect of life eg Christianity

you sure about that one??

It would make a reasonable amount of sense. If there were several groups of rebels then Europeans would be more likely to support or accept them if they adopted some form of Christianity and would probably be trying to encourage the adoption.

What if Byzantium had reconquered Turkey and modernised instead of eventually falling? How would their relationship with Russia have played out?

 

[Tboy]

Good to see a lot of posts here, though a shame to see a lot of them are flames...

If the Romans had not fallen, I reckon the situation of the world would have eventually turned out the same, but it would've took a lot longer, since, as far as I know (but please correct me if I'm wrong) the Romans didn't look too kindly on free speech and that kind of thing, which would've slowed progress a bit. That would also mean that the history of the Americas would be very different, what with Columbus not going and publicising it, but some European proabably would've found it sooner or later anyway

 

[Chieftess]

I'm not sure what you mean by this - surely the doctrine of "Manifest Destiny" was a post-colonial development, that is, it appeared in the nineteenth century? I don't know how much of an impact it really made on the world, though. I'm sure that the US would have come to occupy most of the area that it does even without it, and that it would have been no more or less imperialistic without it.

Well, it was westward expansion. What I meant by it was, what if the US had just remained the 13 origanal colonies. (I thought the expansion to the Mississippi was part of the Manifest Destiny - atleast I think that's what they told us in school.).

 

[drudkh44]

if Christianity hadn't existed, we wouldn't have The Sound of Music. Not such a great legacy after all, perhaps

mmm.. the sound of music...it sucks...big time..and its the most lamest thing ever

 

[Plotinus]

I thought that "Manifest Destiny" was not the simple fact of westward expansion but a particular ideology justifying it: the term was coined in 1845 and referred to a supposed divine mandate that authorised the US to conquer more and more territory and bring "liberty" and true religion to them. A bit like the justification for colonial imperialism among the European powers a few decades later.

 

[Rambuchan]

That's my understanding too Plotinus.

 

[aaglo]

What if Sid Meyer had never been born:
<this would be completely blank space>

 

[Tee Kay]

What if Sid Meyer had never been born:
<this would be completely blank space>

sacrilege!

This forum wouldn't exist. We wouldn't be discussing what-ifs. And I would actually be doing something useful instead of playing with bits of data against animated historical leaders.

 

[Xanikk999]

What if Sid Meyer had never been born:
<this would be completely blank space>

I shudder to think of how my life would of turned out.

 

[raen]

What if the Portuguese king Sebasti&#227;o didnt go to last battle in ceuta leaving Portugal without a king?

What if jews werent so successful?

What if there was no football?

What if there wasnt people of diffrent colours?

What if there was no decrease of number of trees in Africa (dry weather), did we go to the ground and create human race as we know?

 

[Israelite9191]

What if jews werent so successful?

What is your POD exactly? There are a very large number of things that contributed to the success of Jewry as a whole, and I can not think of a particular one that could be eliminated in order to change the ultimate outcome. If you can think of a POD that would achieve this, I would be very interested to hear it.

 

[Chieftess]

I thought that "Manifest Destiny" was not the simple fact of westward expansion but a particular ideology justifying it: the term was coined in 1845 and referred to a supposed divine mandate that authorised the US to conquer more and more territory and bring "liberty" and true religion to them. A bit like the justification for colonial imperialism among the European powers a few decades later.

I blame my local school system then.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Actually, as with most colonizing, the people who wanted to get the land were not the same people who wanted to convert the heathens.

 

[JonnyB]

What if the Earth had no moon?
How would man develop with only starlight at night, no tides, etc.

 

[raen]

What is your POD exactly? There are a very large number of things that contributed to the success of Jewry as a whole, and I can not think of a particular one that could be eliminated in order to change the ultimate outcome. If you can think of a POD that would achieve this, I would be very interested to hear it.

what I meant with this if was, if they werent so successful maybe there was not greedy people try to murder them.