What is, and what should be, the standard for determining racial insensitivity?

[Synobun]

Well, I think however you look at it, that's not a 'decent' or 'gentlemanly' way to live your life - you might not place any value on that, but I think the whole point of a thread about insensitivity is that we start from the premise that living decently is inherently a good thing.

Obviously you shouldn't go out of your way to offend others, but if, for example, somebody got offended because I hold no racial opinion over the n-word, tough luck for them.

I don't care about what they get offended about. I care about what I think, not what they think. As long as I'm not being a bigot or a complete douchebag for no reason, I also see no reason for me to change the way I act because someone gets a little mad.

 

[Lillefix]

Yeah, what Flying Pig said. Want to be a good person? Then try not to offend people, and if you do, apologise and correct yourself in the future. It's not always easy being a good person; if it were, there'd only be a heaven.

A line has to be drawn. That's what this thread is about. It might be with chop stick letters, it might be somewhere else. My point is that if an unreasonable person says something offends him, then it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, if you continue to do it.

 

[Mise]

People don't have a right to not be offended, but I do take your approach with dealing with people I like and/or am related to, for obvious reasons... Also, usually. I have offended a great deal of people in my family by expressing my views on catholicism, christanity, God, etc. But in that case I did not desist and voiced them anyway because members of my family deserve to know what the hell I believe and why. My beliefs are not hateful in nature and are born out of straight logic, which is something a lot of people can appreciate even if they disagree.

I'll let FP speak for himself, but I don't think anyone's saying that you should avoid confrontation or debate, or withhold expressing your firmly held beliefs. FP said in his first post, and I agree, that you take ownership of the offence caused by your words, rather than saying "you shouldn't find this offensive! Stop being so oversensitive!"

Anyway, I disagree that it is your duty to do things that do not offend people; it depends on the level with which you agree that the offensiveness is warranted or not. I'm not going to go out of my way to offend people, because I'm not a jerk, and I know how to behave in an African-American dominated neighbourhood and what sort of phrases to avoid there (andthank you that die hard 3) for example.. and when I travel abroad I avoid doing things that might offend the locals, as silly as their sensibilities might be..

but when I'm at home in my own geographical area I am going to offend people from time to time. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just being myself. The fact that you have been offended has been noted and IGNORED. YOU MAY NOW GO ON WITH YOUR LIFE

If you're chatting with your friends you're going to offend at some point, inevitably. But surely you apologise for offending them? You know, even if you don't really think you did anything wrong, and they are being oversensitive, you still apologise, right? And if you habitually offend your friends just by being yourself then maybe you should be yourself a little less often. Or try to be a better person... I don't know... It's quite easy to say "I'm just being myself! If people can't accept that, then they shouldn't be my friends." But what if it turns out that who you are is a jerk? I'm not saying you're a jerk btw, I'm just asking if you honestly believe that you can reconcile being a good person with (a) habitually offending people, and (b) not really caring that you're offending people.

 

[warpus]

If you're chatting with your friends you're going to offend at some point, inevitably. But surely you apologise for offending them? You know, even if you don't really think you did anything wrong, and they are being oversensitive, you still apologise, right?

Yeah, if I make a silly "yo momma" joke to someone and it so happens that his mom died last year and I had no idea, I'll apologize profusely. But if someone gets offended because I don't like their hat or I don't agree with their politics, then no apology will be forthcoming.. maybe a diplomatic one if it's a girl I have a chance with or say .. you're with a group of friends and it's somebody's birthday and you don't want to ruin his day.

And if you habitually offend your friends just by being yourself then maybe you should be yourself a little less often. Or try to be a better person... I don't know... It's quite easy to say "I'm just being myself! If people can't accept that, then they shouldn't be my friends." But what if it turns out that who you are is a jerk?

I've often asked myself that question



I was thinking more of a random encounter instead of a recurring occurrence. So for example, you happen to mention something that people might find offensive (off the top of my head: you disagree with Israel, have an opinion on abortion, don't believe that God exists, spell god with a lower g, have any sort of political opinion, ..)

People get offended too easily. When it's warranted I will apologize and back off, but..

I'm not saying you're a jerk btw, I'm just asking if you honestly believe that you can reconcile being a good person with (a) habitually offending people, and (b) not really caring that you're offending people.

If you habitually offend people then chances are that you really are a jerk.. or you hang around too many overly sensitive idiots! Either way you should figure out which

 

[Mise]

A line has to be drawn. That's what this thread is about. It might be with chop stick letters, it might be somewhere else. My point is that if an unreasonable person says something offends him, then it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, if you continue to do it.

Well I don't really see this happening very often. Looking back on the times I've offended people in my own life, I don't think there's been a time that "the line" has ever been relevant - I've always been well over whatever line you want to draw. Similarly, if I look back at all the really good human beings that I've known in my life, they don't cause offence to anyone. Ever. They don't ever have to worry about where "the line" is, because they won't ever come close to crossing it. They are just really nice, good hearted people, and that's just the kind of person I want to be.

I think this forum is populated by peculiarly argumentative and confrontational people, which makes this a very one-sided debate. If you asked people out there in the real world, you'd get different answers entirely.

 

[Gustave5436]

A line has to be drawn. That's what this thread is about. It might be with chop stick letters, it might be somewhere else. My point is that if an unreasonable person says something offends him, then it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, if you continue to do it.

The problem isn't that you're doing something that someone considers offensive, it's that, as far as I can tell anyway, you're doing it because someone considers it offensive. If it really is that trivial that you are unable to see why it's offensive, you probably don't really care whether you do it or not. It would be just as trivial to stop doing it. Persisting in doing it, therefore, must be a deliberate attempt at bothering people, and that is the mark of an inconsiderate person.

If you need to "draw a line," draw it between stuff that matters and stuff that doesn't. If it actually infringes on the free expression of your own religious and cultural beliefs, then you should keep doing it. But "your word choice" really isn't the same thing as "practicing your religion." Being courteous with the former doesn't mean a slippery slope towards not getting to do the latter, that's just ridiculous.

 

[Lillefix]

Well I don't really see this happening very often. Looking back on the times I've offended people in my own life, I don't think there's been a time that "the line" has ever been relevant - I've always been well over whatever line you want to draw. Similarly, if I look back at all the really good human beings that I've known in my life, they don't cause offence to anyone. Ever. They don't ever have to worry about where "the line" is, because they won't ever come close to crossing it. They are just really nice, good hearted people, and that's just the kind of person I want to be.

I think this forum is populated by peculiarly argumentative and confrontational people, which makes this a very one-sided debate. If you asked people out there in the real world, you'd get different answers entirely.

Let's be specific then. What about the chopstick-letters? If I open a restaurant and use these letters in the menu, then an Asian comes and says it offends him. Am I really a bad person if I say I will not change anything?

 

[Domen]

I only find people racist if they take actions to discriminate against another ethinicity/colour. For example, if you say "Blacks are inferior", that is racist.

If you wear shoes that happen to have plastic/rubber shackles on them, you are fine.

People find racism in places it doesn't exist because they WANT to see racism.

So when you say "N_ _ _ _ _ _ are superior", then it's not racist?

 

[Formaldehyde]

A white guy opening an Asian restaurant? Now that's funny.

Seriously, I think FP hit the nail on the head. It doesn't really matter what I think is racially insensitive. It is what other races and ethnic groups think.

 

[warpus]

The problem isn't that you're doing something that someone considers offensive, it's that, as far as I can tell anyway, you're doing it because someone considers it offensive. If it really is that trivial that you are unable to see why it's offensive, you probably don't really care whether you do it or not. It would be just as trivial to stop doing it. Persisting in doing it, therefore, must be a deliberate attempt at bothering people, and that is the mark of an inconsiderate person.

Sometimes I'll say something offensive just because... I'm not quite sure why, really.. My friend introduced me to a girl.. She said: "Hi Warpus!" I said: "Hi. I don't like your hat". She got confused and then annoyed.

Why did I do that? I don't know! I didn't even mind the hat! Maybe I'm a jerk

It made my friend laugh though, which was great. I think he felt worse about laughing out loud than I did for making fun of her hat. So maybe that's why I did that.

I'm a horrible person

 

[Domen]

A white guy opening an Asian restaurant? Now that's funny.

??? What's so funny about it?

A black guy opening "a European / American restaurant" is also funny?

 

[Mise]

Yeah, if I make a silly "yo momma" joke to someone and it so happens that his mom died last year and I had no idea, I'll apologize profusely. But if someone gets offended because I don't like their hat or I don't agree with their politics, then no apology will be forthcoming.. maybe a diplomatic one if it's a girl I have a chance with or say .. you're with a group of friends and it's somebody's birthday and you don't want to ruin his day.



I've often asked myself that question



I was thinking more of a random encounter instead of a recurring occurrence. So for example, you happen to mention something that people might find offensive (off the top of my head: you disagree with Israel, have an opinion on abortion, don't believe that God exists, spell god with a lower g, have any sort of political opinion, ..)

People get offended too easily. When it's warranted I will apologize and back off, but..



If you habitually offend people then chances are that you really are a jerk.. or you hang around too many overly sensitive idiots! Either way you should figure out which

Well, they say you shouldn't talk about religion or politics with people you don't know very well - I think that's sound advice. So boo hoo, another thing I can't talk about - back to the weather I guess By random occurrence, do you mean at a party say? So I'm at a party and I'm talking with friends, and a friend of friend is sat there with us, and he's deeply religious. So I say some stupid anti-Jesus comment, and it upsets him. Are you saying you'd apologise in this situation? Or would it depend on the comment? To me, I don't really see the downside in apologising - it's not as if by apologising you're renouncing your belief in atheism. You're just agreeing not to discuss it with/in front of someone who finds the discussion offensive. "Sorry I didn't realise you were religious, I didn't mean to offend you," or whatever - surely that's not a big deal to say, it would mean a lot to the other guy, and it doesn't diminish your own beliefs in any way.

And like I said to Lillefix, there are a lot of people who will never get into that situation in the first place, because they don't have the same compulsion that I do to say stupid anti-Jesus things at parties. And, like most other people on this forum, I'm a very confrontational, argumentative person, so it doesn't come naturally to me to censor myself around other people. But isn't that part of being a better person? Rather than try to justify myself and decide whether what I said was over the line, I'd rather not get into that situation in the first place - I'd rather stick firmly to the right side of the line. What harm does that cause?

TL;DR, I don't think discussing where "the line" is is really the point. We should be discussing how to never have to worry about where the line is at all.

 

[Lillefix]

A white guy opening an Asian restaurant? Now that's funny.

Seriously, I think FP hit the nail on the head. It doesn't really matter what I think is racially insensitive. It is what other races and ethnic groups think.

You think people of a single race all think alike?

No of course you don't, but this is about individuals and individuals might be unreasonable. If most individuals of that race thinks something is racist, then yes I understand. But I don't think most Asians think chopstick-letters are racist.

Besides I never said Asian restaurant, I said a restaurant with menus with a font called chopsticks.

 

[Synobun]

So when you say "N_ _ _ _ _ _ are superior", then it's not racist?

I'm not quite sure where you came to that conclusion from what I said. Do elaborate.

 

[Mise]

Let's be specific then. What about the chopstick-letters? If I open a restaurant and use these letters in the menu, then an Asian comes and says it offends him. Am I really a bad person if I say I will not change anything?

honestly, I don't think I'd use Chop Suey letters to begin with. I wouldn't dress the waitresses up in Kimonos either (or maybe I would, for irony's sake, and serve kimchi with popadoms). But I think I'm more sensitive to kitch racial clichés than most people.

So it's quite easy to answer this question: I'd change the damn lettering.

 

[Lillefix]

So it's quite easy to answer this question: I'd change the damn lettering.

You would change it, just because of a complaint? (let's keep good taste out of this)

I didn't expect that answer tbh. Seriously, you would let people dictate you that easily? I really doubt people who run big businesses can do it effectively if they have to change according to every complaint they receive.

 

[Formaldehyde]

??? What's so funny about it?

A black guy opening "a European / American restaurant" is also funny?

I guess you missed the word "seriously" at the start of the very next sentence.

You think people of a single race all think alike?

How did you possibly get that from my post? Did you also think FP stated or even insinuated that?

No of course you don't, but this is about individuals and individuals might be unreasonable. If most individuals of that race thinks something is racist, then yes I understand. But I don't think most Asians think chopstick-letters are racist.

What percentage need to be offended before it becomes unacceptable? And how do you find out without polling everybody who happens to be in that ethnic group on the planet?

If people are openly complaining about it, then it is probably a good idea to stop doing it unless you are deliberately trying to offend them.

Besides I never said Asian restaurant, I said a restaurant with menus with a font called chopsticks.

Don't you think that would be even far less appropriate with any other restaurant? What would possibly be the point?

 

[Lillefix]

How did you possibly get that from my post? Did you also think FP stated or even insinuated that?

Here you go: "It is what other races and ethnic groups think."

What percentage need to be offended before it becomes unacceptable?

That's one of the subjects of this thread in my eyes. And I think you need more than one potentially unreasonable person. FP said that if ANY person got offended by your action then you should change in order to be a decent person. I dispute that.

Don't you think that would be even far less appropriate with any other restaurant? What would possibly be the point?

Are you questioning my taste in fonts? Perhaps Lucida handwriting would be better.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Here you go: "It is what other races and ethnic groups think."

That in no way insinuates that I think they all think alike. I am merely stating the same thing FP did in a slightly different form.

That's one of the subjects of this thread in my eyes. And I think you need more than one potentially unreasonable person. FP said that if ANY person got offended by your action then you should change in order to be a decent person. I dispute that.

I doubt I would do it for one person, especially if I asked others of that ethnic group and they claimed to have no problem with it. But if a number of different people did complain, I certainly think I'd change it. Wouldn't you?

Are you questioning my taste in fonts? Perhaps Lucida handwriting would be better.

If you are using that font for anything but something that is Asian-related, I would think you had absolutely no talent in the graphics arts.

 

[Lillefix]

That in no way insinuates that I think they all think alike. I am merely stating the same thing FP did in a slightly different form.

OK then.

I doubt I would do it for one person, especially if I asked others of that ethnic group and they claimed to have no problem with it. But if a number of different people did complain, I certainly think I'd change it. Wouldn't you?

That is very, very likely. I'm not very confrontational IRL.

If you are using that font for anything but something that is Asian-related, I would think you had absolutely no talent in the graphics arts.

I can't really disagree here either...