What is Socialism?

Timsup2nothin said:
How much stock are you putting into this "key to understanding?"

Quite a bit. Capital dis-accumulation is probably the most important unrecognized feature of the modern economy.

Timsup2nothin said:
Those things account for me not seeing things your way, which i don't take to mean that you "don't know what you are talking about.".

Not seeing things my way wasn't what prompted that, it was that you referred to economic 'model' in the singular as though economics is monolithic. There are many different models even within neoclassical economics, and of course there are competing economic schools of thought with their own models.

Timsup2nothin said:
For example, the "extraordinary novelty of consumer credit" that "tripled in the decade" isn't extraordinary, or novel, since tripling from insignificant to three times as much but still insignificant just isn't a big deal. Much more significant expansions of consumer debt have happened without causing similar consequences. Picking it out as a similarity between 1929 and 2008 might offer some comfort to those trying to understand 2008, but it seems a false comfort.

This is a graph of consumer debt from 1943-2007.

Consumer_Debt.jpg


I don't see such drastic increases anywhere except from about 1993-2007 the level consumer debt roughly tripled, with catastrophic consequences.

In any case, I would recommend reading that whole essay though I'll understand if you don't. The increase in consumer debt is not the Prime Mover here - it's a consequence of capital dis-accumulation. As any post-Keynesian economist will tell you, excessive private debt (by contrast with public debt) always results in a crash of some kind. Minsky's theory of finance explains why pretty well but I won't get into that right now.

The rise in consumer debt from 1993-2007 didn't just happen, it was a function of workers receiving a lower and lower share of national income. Consumer debt in the '20s was a function of the same thing.
 
1977, ~250 billion.
1987, ~750 billion.

Tripled in less the time, and followed 1967-1977 where it also came close to tripling.

That said, I will read the entire essay, though I haven't yet.

I think that assigning causality for rising consumer debt to workers receiving a lower and lower share of national income requires support as well. I think a case can be made for rising consumer debt being more commonly a result of newly invented instruments of debt. As you pointed out regarding the 1920s there was the installment plan for consumable goods. The surge in the sixties and seventies coincides with the invention of the credit card. The surge in the nineties and current century coincides with the successful marketing of "borrow your equity" home refinancing. Does that mean "this is the cause, you are just wrong"? No. It means that this causal link is a lot to hang the economic model on, so hang with caution.

Which brings me to the singular and plurals of models. I like Einstein. THE model is accurate, in all facets. I have not the first claim on having access to such a model. There are plenty of modeling techniques built on varying theories, and all of them are useful, though partial. We (modern economists) look at the free market capitalism model constructed by Keynes and say "well, that's obvious but the ground has shifted out from under it" without acknowledging the brilliance of it, because it was very nearly complete. The shifting of the ground out from under it is a result of it.

That's the difference between the social sciences and the hard sciences. A physicist comes up with a model of objective reality. There may come a better model that makes it obsolete, but the objective reality being modeled isn't (at least theoretically) going to change. But models in the social sciences are created expressly for the purpose of making themselves obsolete through alteration of that reality.

We are in a period where we really need the next Keynes. Someone who can synthesize all the current models of facets into something approaching the model of the economy that we are currently stuck with. We need that model because the economy is creaking, badly, and if we don't find a way to dismantle it in some controlled fashion the transition to whatever supplants it is likely to be extremely messy.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
1977, ~250 billion.
1987, ~750 billion.

Tripled in less the time, and followed 1967-1977 where it also came close to tripling.

I would say that both of these are consistent with a theory assigning causality to decreasing share of national income going to workers. The level of consumer debt follows a fairly steady trend until the end of the sixties when it starts to accelerate much faster.
However, keep in mind I'm not saying that any increase in consumer debt must be caused by a declining share of worker national income- I'm just saying that the increases in the '20s and after the '60s can be explained that way.

Timsup2nothin said:
The surge in the nineties and current century coincides with the successful marketing of "borrow your equity" home refinancing. Does that mean "this is the cause, you are just wrong"? No. It means that this causal link is a lot to hang the economic model on, so hang with caution.

The surge in the 2000s was due to fraudulent loan origination as part of the mortgage fraud epidemic that caused the recession. That's little more than a truism though, as I think saying previous expansions were due to the invention of new forms of credit. Why were new forms of credit invented just then? Why did they come into widespread use? Those are more important questions.
Historically speaking the accumulation of too much private debt is what "causes" a financial crisis. This is where Minsky's explanation of the financial system comes in: his classic line is "stability is destabilizing," which speaks to the idea that a period of prosperity leads people to make riskier and riskier investments. He identifies three basic types of borrowers: hedge borrowers (safe investments like government bonds), speculative borrowers, and ponzi borrowers. Ponzi borrowers are borrowers who are only able to service their debts when the value of the assets they have positions in keeps rising: a fall or even a halt in the rise of value will render them insolvent. I think you can already see the relevance of that to pretty much every economic crisis in the past two centuries.

Timsup2nothin said:
Which brings me to the singular and plurals of models. I like Einstein. THE model is accurate, in all facets. I have not the first claim on having access to such a model. There are plenty of modeling techniques built on varying theories, and all of them are useful, though partial. We (modern economists) look at the free market capitalism model constructed by Keynes and say "well, that's obvious but the ground has shifted out from under it" without acknowledging the brilliance of it, because it was very nearly complete. The shifting of the ground out from under it is a result of it.

That's the difference between the social sciences and the hard sciences. A physicist comes up with a model of objective reality. There may come a better model that makes it obsolete, but the objective reality being modeled isn't (at least theoretically) going to change. But models in the social sciences are created expressly for the purpose of making themselves obsolete through alteration of that reality.

We are in a period where we really need the next Keynes. Someone who can synthesize all the current models of facets into something approaching the model of the economy that we are currently stuck with. We need that model because the economy is creaking, badly, and if we don't find a way to dismantle it in some controlled fashion the transition to whatever supplants it is likely to be extremely messy.

So I'm not completely sure what you mean by "the free market model constructed by Keynes." The "Keynesian" model that's currently dominant, AFAIK, is IS-LM which wasn't constructed by Keynes but by other (neoclassical) economists. Keynes' General Theory was meant to explain any capitalist economy, from the classical 19th century one based on the gold standard to the managed economies that emerged in the '30s in response to the Depression (that's why it's called the General Theory).
For myself, I favor post-Keynesian approaches, as I think those have the best predictive utility. Models of the economy based on perfect competition, universal access to correct information and so forth are clearly not only wrong, they're predictive failures.

I don't think it's possible to construct a mathematical model of the entire economy even in principle. But you can model the (causally) important parts. The trick is figuring out what those are, and I think the post-Keynesians are correct that the immediately important thing for understand how the business cycle works is debt - while it seems clear that Marx is far closer to the underlying causes of economic events than any 'bourgeois' economist.

Interestingly, on the point of Keynesian theory changing the social reality, you should read Kalecki's essay Political Aspects of Full Employment. Kalecki predicted that even though Keynesian management would result in higher profits for business, full employment would lead to the working class becoming more socially assertive and erode the social primacy of employers, and so predicted that the Keynesian policy apparatus would not last.
I think he's been more or less vindicated by events. Keynesian demand management fell out of favor for monetarist approaches at the beginning of the '70s.
 
Why were new forms of credit invented just then? Why did they come into widespread use? Those are more important questions.

New forms of credit were invented for the same reason anything else is invented...so the inventor has something to sell for profit. They came into widespread use because they were marketed successfully.
 
At its core, socialism's meaning is in the very first part: the idea that production will be socially managed, as opposed to individually. Whether that social refers to everyone, or only those contributing labor, seems to vary from person to person.

Of course, that's a very broad meaning... but lo and behold, that's why there's a huge variety of beliefs about how it should be implemented. Then you have history doing its part and seeing the term expand in a number of ways beyond the narrow definition, both by socialism's supporters (adopting the title of Social Democrat, but referring to themselves as socialists at times as well), and its detractors (e.g. Cold War-era Americans starting to refer to ANY government program or oversight as "socialism.").

And that's how we get the mess we have now. Language shifting all the time as it does, whether socialism refers to the means of production or results of production can easily change depending on who uses the word. I personally prefer the original definition, as it sets the system apart from capitalism (whereas something like social democracy is merely modifying capitalism rather than changing it entirely).
 
Since it is a practical application of "love thy neighbor as thy self" that is reasonably accurate.

Which in essences means if one hates themselves, they have to say sorry to everyone?
 
Socialism is the only way to go, government wise.
Sooner or later you'll all realize this simple truth.
Thanks and bye.
 
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