So socialism

You main economic point is very good and I caution anyone unclear on it to understand it before even considering my counterargument.

However the existence of financial savings is pent up demand waiting for basically "something better" to induce spending. As such, the existence of those financial savings inherently incentivizes change. Individuals liberated to decide how to induce this spending are more creative than bureaucracies.
I just want to add that I was not arguing against savings per se. I was arguing against savings as a system of social security. What is called the "capitalization system". As opposed to what is called the "pay-as-you-go" system.

Savings are always an individual option and choice. Or sould be - it's bad that in so many places people simply do not earn enough to even be able to save, rentiers know how much they get paid and jack up the rents they control to extract it all.
 
Savings are always an individual option and choice.
And what should people do with their savings? Banks? Stocks? Bonds? Under a mattress? Crypto? Buy Canned food and water? Buy real estate to rent out?
 
You guys seem confused, I'm not saying parents should be solely responsible for teaching their kids I'm saying public school (in the us) isn't very good & it's not designed w pure benevolent interest of society in mind
But that's confusing the concept of "public school" with its implementation.
Many countries have very decent public schools, don't throw the baby with the bathwater.

El_Machinae said it perfectly : it's about setting up a baseline.
 
And what should people do with their savings? Banks? Stocks? Bonds? Under a mattress? Crypto? Buy Canned food and water? Buy real estate to rent out?

Certainly not crypto.

Other options depend entirely upon circumstances.

And keeping some savings in cash and some in an instant access (state guaranteed) bank account as both a contingency
for uneven cash flow, expected bills and an ability to take advantage of a windfall opportunity is generally a good idea.
 
O(logN) is a time complexity of an extremely scalable algorithm.

O(logC) is the same as O(C) which is O(1)

What in capitalism is the “constant” such that is costs the same in absolute terms regardless of scale? Why is socialism a tree of people and capitalism not? Why is it scaling with a log?

What are these algorithms you have in your head? What are they doing/ solving?
Sorry, I was busy these days. Here are my observations, from where I live and the history of my country, which practiced central planning in its history:
- In a market economy, the authorities' role is to design and provide small functional systems and let the inner to individuals, they also want to control things to a minimal extent, and the best algorithm to control is likely tree-based/hierarchical. Let's say they want to create a system that allows capital moving to the people need it; example: central bank. There is a hierarchy within the central bank; I do not know how it works internally because I do not study in that field. The general structure of modern capitalism resembles an ensemble of forests (authority) interacting with a swarm/point cloud of individuals/organizations. The purpose of a democratic government/authority is to maximize the 4 conflicting objectives: the expected (maximize) + std (minimize) difference between the total assets/economic power of the ruling party and the opposing party, the expected (maximize) + std (minimize) total asset/economic power of the whole collective and they - the authority controls these games (the forest ensembles). However, every individual in society has one sole objective: how to get as much public good as possible to enrich themselves; a player against the authority. These two players make a capitalism-based society stable, as they are trying to take advantage of each other.
- In a socialist economy, however, the authorities play another game: the creation of systems and "redistribution". The cost to manage such systems is small but the cost to redistribute is not a small thing. Redistribution has to know everyone's diverse needs, and each supervisor can only supervise a limited amount of humans, therefore, to achieve that, they must organize a hierarchy over the whole population somehow; on the other hand, in a market economy, that job is left by "unknown market forces". Therefore, O(logN + logC) = O(logN). In ideal socialist economy, they should focus in the public good due to the lack of opposing parties, however, reality deviates a lot from ideal scenarios but let's think the ideal is true...

When I say modern capitalism is a generalized version of socialism, here is what I meant:
- In a framework of capitalism, the government can make these "forests" bigger to increase their degree of control, and of course, they can extend their degree of control to the level of socialism if the technologies allow them to do so; and in my belief, the governments, in general, is an adversarial force to its citizen (I believe in liberalism and have a bias towards anarchism). However, what stops them from doing so is the cost of managing deterring them to do so not any civil liberty.

Why the logN seems too good to be true, horrible in reality?
There was a small experiment: take 20 children to form a line. Ask the first person to draw what they see, then pass it to the next and next person, the result is normally horrible. More precisely, I believe this is due to information compressing; example: you need to put it into a paper/a vector R^n/...

The algorithm I have in my head is:
- Capitalism: everyone wants to murder each other to achieve some goods and they are really good at playing the games to try to take over the authority to have power to murder the opposing sides or try to survive when authority is not in their control. they also try to cooperate with others in order to murder some other organizations. and of course, its nature seems horrible.

Step 1: see the big cloud
Step 2: do some modifications to the games to adapt the current situation
Step 3: many of them died, ouch
Step 4: update the games' parameters (interest rate, inflation rate, ...)

- Socialism: everyone tries to cooperate with others but they need to have a central planner for everything. this seems very humane but too much burden is put on the authority. and people are also trying to take advantage of this system, passing information that benefits them most.

Non-roots:
Step 1: receive info from child nodes and commands from parent nodes
Step 2: select the information that you want to pass to the parent nodes for your own good
Step 3: pass a part of the command from parent node to child nodes
Step 4: profit

Root:
Step 1: receive info from child nodes
Step 2: try to generate a big picture from these missing info
Step 3: make commands/pruning ill-willed nodes
 
You are confusing socialism with central planning.

Consider the "soviet" in "soviet" union.

Soviet = something like = worker's council.

Very good for; bottom up decision making, non centralised innovation and personal motivation.

But the soviet union went the wrong way with increasingly top down policies imposed
by monolithic party dogma and secret police as consequence of a democratic deficit.

Yes, central planning is required for some things, but in many other things worker run
factories could have been better left to liaise directly with distributors/suppliers/customers.
 
You are confusing socialism with central planning.
"Socialism is a political philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic and social systems,[1] which are characterised by social ownership of the means of production".
I do not see a way to implement socialism without central planning, there must be some institution to redistribute these social goods like how public welfare which is a very inefficient system (most of goods are spent on maintaining the system and delivering the goods to the one who needed rather than creating the goods for the one who needed) works on a smaller scale.
factories could have been better left to liaise directly with distributors/suppliers/customers.
Distributors/Suppliers/Customers are very conflicting forces, wanting different objectives, how they can cooperate with each other for public goods by jointly controlling factories. I do not see a way better than capitalism to let them murder each other, trying to take advantage of each other to achieve equilibrium in a partially observable game. For simplicity, suppliers want to create less since they want leisure while customers gain more leisure if more resources are received; work less and earn more.
Very good for; bottom up decision making
Socialism: Workers' innovation -> Speaking to councils -> Councils send information packages to their supervisors -> The innovations are reviewed, experimented with, and then implemented if yields a positive result.
Capitalism: Individuals' innovation -> Go to the bank to get a loan (your house, your future depends on your ideas and your implementation) -> The market determines if your idea is successful or not -> get rekt or get rich
The socialist style can miss lots of ideas due to limitations in resources to experiment with these ideas while the capitalism-style can experiment with all of these ideas; however, the innovators in a socialism-style thing have no risk therefore they can speak out their crazy ideas (regardless of their supervisors accept it or not) while if the innovators in a capitalist-style fail, well, he's bankrupted, as 99% of start-ups in reality failed.
But the soviet union went the wrong way with increasingly top down policies imposed
by monolithic party dogma and secret police as consequence of a democratic deficit.
I'm not really a fan of democratic processes as my childhood was democratically bullied in schools; however, without democracy but a state-imposed global free market, it will create a force directed at themselves, hence, forcing them to improve their own policies or to perish. Think about a global free market as a market of policies; the humans/talented/capital/everything will flow to where it is desirable. I believe in the freer the market, the freer the people. There exists a dictatorship that all-in into the free market side, state-impose free market after all.
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What you mention is likely an idea my country experimented with in its late stage of central planning economy "autonomous cooperatives". It divides people into socialist clusters, divides the good evenly within the clusters, gives fund for high-performance clusters, and observe the policies of high-performance clusters to share these policies. It worked somehow at first but then failed in the "observing & redistributing" process, and finally decomposed into a market economy for its own survival. These "autonomous cooperatives" became what we called nowadays cooperations/joint stock companies, which are not very new things to the rest of the world.

The model that most of the world adopts nowadays is likely, I might be wrong: democratic(US/EU/..)/dictatorship(many former socialists) ensembles of dictatorships (private companies) and small socialisms (labor unions)
The previous model that most of the world adopts in the past: democratic ensembles of dictatorship (private companies) and forbids small socialism -> more like aristocracy honestly
The previous model that most socialist world adopts in the past: dictatorship control of smaller dictatorships (down in the hierarchy) and smaller socialisms (autonomous cooperatives)

My prediction for the future may be the democratic ensemble might disappear to be replaced by something more market-oriented when the borders of countries become so open that people can flock to anywhere having a desirable policy, with the expansion of globalization. Voting will likely obsolete since instead of voting for what policies they want, people run to places having the policies suitable most for them to work with their best. There will be some setbacks in the globalization process but overall globalization will become something really big, bigger than any form we see nowadays. The process of how democracy disappears is not some laws that forbid people to vote but the immense pressure from immigrants that continuously reinforce the previous policy/the reason they came to make a career elsewhere and for the reverse process, there will be peaceful fragmentation that tears the countries into smaller parts due to immense accumulated differences.
 
There is a distinction between market economy and capitalism.

And both communist and non communists tend to confuse the two.

For instance communists chose to believe that markets were incompatable with
central planning rather than more modestly limit central planning to what it is best for..

And capitalists like to put it about that limiting capitalism is abolishing the market.

And without democracy, you likely end up with authoritarian communism,
feudalism, plutocracy, theocracy etc rather than a proper market economy.
 
State ownership/control and economic planning are not synonymous with socialism as many seem to feel. Under de Gaulle France went in for central planning and state ownership in a big way. Even today the French state owns a controlling share
in EDF and SNCF. Neither de Gaulle or Macron are remotely socialist.

Socialism is about workers and users controlling enterprises, not the state or party doing so. The Coop or the John Lewis Partnership have more to do with socialism than the National Coal Board ever did.
 
honestly, it'd be good just having an outline of different terminologies for this thread, at least. like, screw it if it doesn't hold up elsewhere, we just need to discuss the goods and ills of X, and then X can be whatever word it is elsewhere.

so eg we could say:
social democracy: capitalist system with large public (state) owned sectors of certain industries (firefighting, police, healthcare, social subsidies)
socialism: the general idea of worker/state owned sectors. integral to social democracy, of course. so not a system in itself, but a component in several systems. point is it is removed from the power of supply-demand and put into a demand-oriented system with the idea of public good in mind.
leninism: all sectors are owned by the state. top-down.
communism: worker owned sectors. bottom-up.

the issue as is is not, in my opinion, whether we're using the correct idea of socialism, at all. it's that we enter the discussion with different conceptions of it, which leads to us talking past each other. if we take the above four ideas and talk about them coherently, just in this thread, then we can go elsewhere in another discussion where socialism means social democracy, as i defined it, and communism means leninism, etc, etc, and then engage in that conversation with a better understanding of what we consider goods and ills of that. even i have flipped back and forth within the thread depending on context, which might have been useful in the detail, but makes coherence a problem.

like, names are just definitions are just names. i don't really care whether something is truly socialism or whatever. it's just a title. what matters is how and whether X works, not what X is called.

definitions only really matter if someone demonizes X for something it isn't. like harassing social democrats by talking about venezuela, and not, say, the nordics.
 
honestly, it'd be good just having an outline of different terminologies for this thread, at least. like, screw it if it doesn't hold up elsewhere, we just need to discuss the goods and ills of X, and then X can be whatever word it is elsewhere.

so eg we could say:
social democracy: capitalist system with large public (state) owned sectors of certain industries (firefighting, police, healthcare, social subsidies)
socialism: the general idea of worker/state owned sectors. integral to social democracy, of course. so not a system in itself, but a component in several systems. point is it is removed from the power of supply-demand and put into a demand-oriented system with the idea of public good in mind.
leninism: all sectors are owned by the state. top-down.
communism: worker owned sectors. bottom-up.

the issue as is is not, in my opinion, whether we're using the correct idea of socialism, at all. it's that we enter the discussion with different conceptions of it, which leads to us talking past each other. if we take the above four ideas and talk about them coherently, just in this thread, then we can go elsewhere in another discussion where socialism means social democracy, as i defined it, and communism means leninism, etc, etc, and then engage in that conversation with a better understanding of what we consider goods and ills of that. even i have flipped back and forth within the thread depending on context, which might have been useful in the detail, but makes coherence a problem.

like, names are just definitions are just names. i don't really care whether something is truly socialism or whatever. it's just a title. what matters is how and whether X works, not what X is called.

definitions only really matter if someone demonizes X for something it isn't. like harassing social democrats by talking about venezuela, and not, say, the nordics.
This is too true. It is easy for arguments to devolve into semantics without discussing the pros and cons of any particular tangible thing.
 
honestly, it'd be good just having an outline of different terminologies for this thread, at least. like, screw it if it doesn't hold up elsewhere, we just need to discuss the goods and ills of X, and then X can be whatever word it is elsewhere.

so eg we could say:
social democracy: capitalist system with large public (state) owned sectors of certain industries (firefighting, police, healthcare, social subsidies)
socialism: the general idea of worker/state owned sectors. integral to social democracy, of course. so not a system in itself, but a component in several systems. point is it is removed from the power of supply-demand and put into a demand-oriented system with the idea of public good in mind.
leninism: all sectors are owned by the state. top-down.
communism: worker owned sectors. bottom-up.

Thank you! This was much needed.

You can also add Stalinism as the deranged offshoot of Leninism; a totalitarian police state that will gladly sacrifice its own citizens to protect the one party in control.
 
...
so eg we could say:
social democracy: capitalist system with large public (state) owned sectors of certain industries (firefighting, police, healthcare, social subsidies)
socialism: the general idea of worker/state owned sectors. integral to social democracy, of course. so not a system in itself, but a component in several systems. point is it is removed from the power of supply-demand and put into a demand-oriented system with the idea of public good in mind.
leninism: all sectors are owned by the state. top-down.
communism: worker owned sectors. bottom-up.
...
"public good" is also a precise term:
 
Vietnam, the central planning economy still left most old people (40+ years old) with horror-like experiences. It's something the general population here never wants to try again.

Wait, so you are a Vietnamese person who wishes that South Vietnam won the war?
 
Did Marx really argue that it is the unique tension of the ability to get surplus productive value out of labor above its employment cost that would drive capitalists to ultimately have to squeeze labor harder and harder to get any profits over in the long run, and that being pressure on humans would eventually force an inevitable workers revolution?

Focus being on labor’s unique tension between use value and exchange value.
 
Did Marx really argue that it is the unique tension of the ability to get surplus productive value out of labor above its employment cost that would drive capitalists to ultimately have to squeeze labor harder and harder to get any profits over in the long run, and that being pressure on humans would eventually force an inevitable workers revolution?

Focus being on labor’s unique tension between use value and exchange value.

Kalecki argued that the capitalists would throw profitability to the wolves to preserve their social position as bosses.

I think we're basically watching that happen in real time. It's obvious that socialist public policy would create a much more healthy environment for business, make it much easier to profit by creating value than by securing rents. But they'd rather squeeze rent out of a dying planet until it dies than admit the poors are equal humans.
 
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