What is the ideal taxation scheme?

Tani Coyote

Son of Huehuecoyotl
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What is the ideal taxation scheme?


At one point in the past, I asked forum members what the limits of government spending should be. Now, I ask everybody, what should the limits of government INCOME be?

The government, as everyone should know, can't really make money itself(I don't think nationalised industries count here) due to it's nature as an administrator and not a business or individual. It must instead take money from others - call it legalised theft if you want, but that's not relevant here - in order to finance it's programs, and it is these programs - and how they're paid for - that often divide many people.

So, I ask all of you, what is the ideal taxation scheme, in your humble - or not - opinions?

(I pray that the word 'socialism' doesn't show up in here...)


My personal response:

Spoiler :
In addition to believing that sanity needs to be restored in government through a cutting of the military budget and the welfare budget as well, I believe our taxation scheme needs to be drastically altered.

First and foremost, the income tax! This post will be a bit US-centric, naturally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate_schedule_(federal_income_tax)

I'll put that link there to show the current income tax situation in the United States, for quick reference.

First and foremost, those ugly absolute values need to be removed. They could be seen as regressive, plus they make tax calculation somewhat more complicated. Reduce the taxation scheme entirely to percentages of income(that naturally will have to fluctuate with things such as inflation, of course).

With those numbers removed, there are still two income tax subjects that need covering:

a) The Brackets

I believe the brackets - provided there's a progressive tax, of course - should be shuffled to be even numbers, especially ending in zeros, to make things simpler. I think the amount covered in each bracket should be increased, thus resulting in a net tax cut for the majority of people, and the tax stays constant for those already on top.

So, for example, replace those ugly six brackets with these:

1. 0 - 50,000
2. 50,001 - 500,000
3. 500,001+


Much simpler, plus for the vast majority of people, income taxes are cut due to the shift upwards.

b) the Rates

Now this is where I become more open-ended. I am an advocate of a flat tax, a progressive tax, AND a Negative Income Tax as a means of financing the government. The Flat Tax and Negative Income Tax do not need discussion here, as they do not have different "rates", but a single flat rate.

These numbers are arbitrary, of course, and could be negotiated. But just to give an idea...

1. 0 - 50,000 : 1%
2. 50,001 - 500,000 : 5%
3. 500,001+ : 10%

In essence, everybody wins under a system such as this, due to taxes being cut for everybody, and the majority of people being moved into a lower tax bracket. Of course, given the realities of politics, such a simple system is not likely to exist. But, this is about IDEAL taxation systems, after all.

My main proposal with brackets is this: Do not lump a person who makes a few hundred thousand a year in with Warren Buffet. Call it personal bias, but I'll give my father as an example.

Our family grew up in borderline-poverty, having to leech off our grandparents to pay the bills. My father never accepted a single dime from the government, and as time went on, he moved his way up until he became a regional manager at a local business. He eventually resigned due to his ambition, becoming a small business owner. That business makes about 750,000 dollars a year, and he takes home about 200,000 or so of it himself. Due to the current taxation scheme, he loses about half of it all. Thankfully, the whammy of state taxes is not imposed upon us thanks to being in Nevada. But with only a net income of 100,000+, that money is easily gobbled up by medical bills, the mortgage and other assorted expenses. There are times where we have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get by, and it's all because of the insanity imposed upon us by both sides of the aisle's agendas.

So in all honesty, given how many small business owners - and even some large business owners too - rose up from desperate circumstances and lived out the American dream, should we really punish them from their success? And rhetoric aside, should the small business owners, who are the brick and mortar of the American economy - making up about 60% of it's business if I recall correctly - be punished as harshly as those at the top?


This is one reason why I'm more of a supporter of a flat tax, as it doesn't punish people for being successful, be it by personal virtue or manipulation of the system.

And, to quiet the left-leaning types, I support the Negative Income Tax to merge the benefit and taxation systems, thus allowing the wealthy and poor to both prosper. Now just to get the imbeciles on Capitol Hill to actually do something. The only problem with the Negative Income Tax is it might squeeze the middle class, and thus it's implementation would have to be done very carefully.



On to the other parts of this grand trainwreck we call the taxation system...

Inheritance taxation. I am a firm believer in a progressive inheritance tax. The main reason being, people who become rich worked for their money, while those who were born into it DID NOT. All liquid assets should be subject to enormous taxation the larger they get. Of course, as explained in other threads I've made, I believe a handsome amount can still be exempted. Say, 1,000,000 dollars for the spouse and every child. But everything over that will see the cut of the government's blade. Of course, the wealthy have the choice of donating the non-exempted amounts to charity, in which case the government will NOT be able to touch them. A post-mortem tax deduction, if you will. It also serves as an incentive to spend money while alive, thus keeping large amounts of cash flowing through the economy, likely producing a net benefit.


Now that the "people worked for their money" (or not) argument has been solidified, on to the other things...


A sales tax. The sales tax is certainly an interesting way to generate revenue, being that it taxes economic activity and purchases rather than production. It can also be used to try and deter people from harmful or unhealthy substances through 'sin taxation.' Some of the most radical - not saying that in a bad way - thinkers believe the income tax should be outright abolished and replaced with a national sales tax.

So all in all, I'm a supporter of the sales tax. It also offers a tad more choice to people in terms of paying it(as they can choose to buy the product it's attached to), whereas income taxation is more forced upon a person as they choose to be productive. The only issue is it is regressive, and thus healthy food, medicine, clothing and simple housing should be exempt from it, to ensure that society's least fortunate are not punished.


Tariffs and duties. I used to be a supporter of these, but I became a free trader thanks to discussions with other posters. Keeping tariffs low - with the benefit of diversifying income and adding a bit of cash to the government bucket - isn't too bad for me. But turning to outright protectionism is. Lower prices are generally a consequence of better efficiency(or lack of economic development on the part of the producer, whichever), and so they should not be punished. A better way to protect industries such as automobile manufacturers - in my opinion - is to gradually cut taxes and tell them to either emulate their rivals or face the wrath of the free market. Free trading will produce a better overall benefit, as it nurtures competition between countries as well as within them.

The only issue is that as trade barriers are demolished, there's a chance less moral businessmen will exploit those in undeveloped countries, as shown by simple things such as outsourcing. However, I'm not quite sure if it is "exploitation", given how the wages - which are small to us - might be relatively large in the area they go to. Observe how migrant workers often agree to work for less, not only because of their - general - humility, but also due to the fact what's little to us is a lot to them. They're a sad reflection on the culture of privelege that has developed in the First World.

But anyway, my point is, is that so long as the wage is still good relative to the worker's location, I see no issues with the outsourcing, as free trade helps us all in the end. Sure a few people might go bankrupt in the homeland, but given time, it is for the greater good that other nations develop, improving the quality of life they enjoy, while also giving us more competitors and markets. We all benefit in the end. The greater, long-term good is better than the lesser, short-term good.


Land taxation. Whether one is a Georgist or not, placing high taxes on land - beyond a certain amount of it, to shield the poor from regressive effects - seems like a good idea. It reduces an individual's excesses, and even moreso when licenses and fees are used with regards to natural resources and development of the land. A good, Georgian-esque tax can help guarantee an affluent individual makes the most use of their land, squeezing every penny they can out of it, improving efficiency. It also aids the environmental movement, by preserving natural landscapes here and there from being bought up by those who would not use them.

As an example of how much revenue land taxation can generate, one can look at Hong Kong.


As a component of land taxation, there is a natural resource taxation scheme. One should not be able to own a natural resource - an oil deposit, mineral deposit, freshwater source, etc. - unless they pay a fee for it. This fee guarantees that individual's right to monopolise the resource and prevent access by others to it. On top of this fee for owning the resource, there should be an additional fee for not developing/using the resource; oil or gold that sits in the ground, for example, doesn't help the economy any, when it could be flowing into the market as raw materials, as well as providing jobs in the mining industry.




I feel I covered about everything there! :D I probably left some things out, but I can tackle those later. Those are the major things.

Anyway, enough about my views. I would like to hear YOURS.
 
Ideal is an utterly and completely flat tax. Everything you make, profit, whatever, you pay a flat rate on that everybody else pays. Personally I suggest 9.9% because it is arrogant of the government to get more than God.

That said, I accept that there is probably going to need to be some sort of initial exemption of some income to help the poor, but I wish we didn't need to do that.

Bill gates should pay the same percentage as I should. Why should he be punished for being more succesful?
 
Ideal is an utterly and completely flat tax. Everything you make, profit, whatever, you pay a flat rate on that everybody else pays. Personally I suggest 9.9% because it is arrogant of the government to get more than God.

That said, I accept that there is probably going to need to be some sort of initial exemption of some income to help the poor, but I wish we didn't need to do that.

Bill gates should pay the same percentage as I should. Why should he be punished for being more succesful?

I'm not religious, but anyway, 10% sounds like a good flat rate to me, it's nice and even and easy to remember.

I overall do feel a flat tax - or a negative income tax - would be the best system, simply because it not only could be seen as more fair, but also because of the fact it enormously simplifies the taxation system.

I agree, somebody should not be punished for being more successful, the small business owners especially. I hate the fact people lump the wealthiest with those who have just entered the top bracket. What kind of moron believed a person who ran a few local shops was anywhere near as wealthy as Rockefeller and Carnegie, and wouldn't be hit hard by sharing the same - high, rather than flat and low - tax rate?

On the issue of working for money, how do you stand on inheritance taxation?

While I believe that people should be able to have a flat rate while alive due to earning their success, I'm not quite as forgiving to the successors of that person, as they may or may not have earned their money. I feel that most of their liquid assets should be taken(after a good amount, say 1,000,000 per heir, was exempted, as well as any charitable donations), though the young person should still have the ability to say, take over their parents' means of production(their business), so they have a chance at being successful as well.

Would this proposal entail any cutting of government spending?

In addition to believing that sanity needs to be restored in government through a cutting of the military budget and the welfare budget as well, I believe our taxation scheme needs to be drastically altered.

It was right in the first part of my proposal. :)

But of course! At this point, I feel, due to the huge debt and nothing be done to get it down to sane levels, spending is more of an issue than income... We're not in the old days where having a surplus was considered bad.
 
I'd be in favor of a simpler prog tax without so many exemptions. A progressive tax isn't "fair" like a flat tax would be, but it makes a smaller indentation in the lives of the taxed. But ultimately we should aim for less tax and sapient and controlled spending, without that, any tax system would be equally worthless. Let's be real though, the government will be spending money whether they have the money or not.
 
Ideal is an utterly and completely flat tax. Everything you make, profit, whatever, you pay a flat rate on that everybody else pays. Personally I suggest 9.9% because it is arrogant of the government to get more than God.
Technically, god doesn't get the money. His minions in the church do. That money keeps the churches going. I'm quite sure god doesn't get a single penny of it. Besides, to paraphrase Kirk: What does god need with a tithe?
That said, I accept that there is probably going to need to be some sort of initial exemption of some income to help the poor, but I wish we didn't need to do that.

Bill gates should pay the same percentage as I should. Why should he be punished for being more succesful?

I was just thinking about this the other day. I'd like to see an end of income tax. I don't pay income tax anyway, because my deductions outweigh any tax that I owe. I'm not quite sure how the gov't would get money... So I started trying to figure out how to get the umpteen billion dollars this country needs to run. Print it, of course. We already allow the gov't to do so. Money is so arbitrary anyways...until you try to print your own. ;)

I thought it might be worth it to have a federal sales tax, and federal property taxes. Of course, this is still pretty much an income tax, you're just taking it at a different time.

So I really didn't come up with a new way to tax, but I'm leaning towards a federal sales tax, say 10% on top of local and state taxes. Yeah, that'll make everything more expensive, but everyone will be making more money anyways, so they can afford it.

We could always go back to trade tariffs again, like before there was an income tax. It would certainly put a dent in the trade deficit with China.

I'd have to say I do like a flat tax though. I agree that people should all basically pay the same rate.
 
Ideal is an utterly and completely flat tax. Everything you make, profit, whatever, you pay a flat rate on that everybody else pays.
Everything you make (revenue) or profit? Becuase if you want to go by profit, you introduce deductions and the world isn't so flat and simple anymore.
Bill gates should pay the same percentage as I should. Why should he be punished for being more succesful?
He has perhaps paid less of a percentage than you since the gains on most of his wealth (holdings of Microsoft stock) have received tax deferral which will never become due if he dumps his stock into charities at or before death.
 
Flat tax isn't "fair" and I've never even heard of a flat tax proposal that is actually "flat."

edit: xpost'd
 
Very high inheritance tax would be nice, albeit difficult to manage.
 
The issue with a flat tax is that there is a certain incompressible amount of expenses that you have to do to basically survive (food, utilities, rent/mortgage,...)
And as such, low salaries are penalized by a flat tax because this incompressible amount of expense eats a very large percentage of their salaries - and the flat tax just eats more of their remaining expenses.

Basically:
incompressible expenses=$500. Flat tax is 10%.
Someone earning $600 dollars will have $40 left, someone earning $1000 will have $400 left.
That is 10 times more savings for the higher salary (compared to 5 times more without the flat tax).

Highly simplified but that's the idea.
 
Yeah, that's why I included "That said, I accept that there is probably going to need to be some sort of initial exemption of some income to help the poor, but I wish we didn't need to do that."
 
Pigouvian taxes on goods with negative externalities.
Flat tax rate on income with standard deduction, for a net progressive tax.
Flat tax rate on corporate profits, probably.
A few other miscellaneous things.

That's the short version. Explanations available upon request.

In before fairtax and twenty-page derailment.
 
Also as with all things economics, a taxation system is very much dependent on ideology. That's why I'm not particularly keen on a flat tax all across the board, because I don't think all income types are equally benefiting to society. There is in my eyes a difference between "real" income (that which you get from doing a job such as civil servant or business owner) and "fictional" income (things like trading currencies or getting 5% a year on the 2 billions you inherited)
 
There is no such thing as a "fair" tax. All taxation is theft and must be abolished. The state, that relies on tax is a criminal organisation, it is the modern mafia.

Objective:
Income tax: 0%
Social security, healthcare, etc: 0%
sales tax: 0%
property tax: 0%
regulations and other state fees: 0$

Who doesnt like it? :)

are you even serious?
 
I would rather most taxes be tariffs and excise taxes based on the externalities the manufacture, transport, and use of the products cause. Pollution would be the main factor considered here, although high tariffs would also used to put pressure on counties guilty of human rights abuses. I would allow taxes on exports too, but again only those justified by the externalities.



I would increase the estate tax for the very wealthy. I'd probably not use discrete brackets, but a continuously differentiable formula. I might even make it so that the amount (not just percent) you can pass on decreases on estates passed the ~$500,000,000 dollar mark.



I'd probably include something similar to the Fair Tax, but 23% (or 30% depending on how it is calculated) seems rather high. Since this would not be the only tax and since I'd cut spending dramatically, 10% is probably as high as I'd consider going. I would probably allow foods that the FDA deems the healthiest to be free from this tax, as well as at least some prescription drugs (but certainly not things like viagra).




I would definitely get rid of payroll taxes completely.


I lean towards eliminating the income tax. I would definitely reduce the rate and get rid of all deductions and loopholes. Also, benefits like healthcare plans should be factored in as part of income.

If I keep it, I would give the taxpayer the right to earmark their tax money for specific programs (or at least departments/agencies), perhaps making them pay a little more based on how much they earmark. Individuals should have the right to express their views on what the government should be doing with their money. For example, those who oppose the war should be able to keep their money from the military and give it to something like education or healthcare instead.






I prefer the biblical system of gleaning over government handouts. That makes it clear that the right of private property is derived from improving the land so as to be more beneficial to society as a whole, not to the state. It encourages people to love their neighbors, and allows those who have nothing the opportunity to work for their living. The biblical quote "if any would not work, neither should he eat" makes much more sense in a system where property owners do not have the right to stop the less fortunate from using their means of production. I would consider using such a system in agriculture and extending something similar to other industries. The government would not really regulate it, but would simply refuse to prosecute property crimes committed against those who did not set aside 10% of their capital or products. Obviously regulations would require the arms industry to give its weapons to the military and law enforcement instead of leaving them out on the streets for criminals to take and pharmaceutical companies to donate drugs to hospitals rather than letting people pick them up for recreational use, but the general principle is the same. Perhaps adding an optional tax that could be payed instead of setting things aside like this could be good too.
 
If there is even one person that pays taxes against his will, due to the threat of violence behind the tax demand, then he is the victim of theft, and the thief, the state, is the aggressor, has violated the rights of another person to ownership of his legitimate property.

So who are you going to call to catch the thief? The cops? oh wait that's right, there are no cops as you paid no taxes :lol:
I guess it leaves you with Ghostbusters!
 
The issue with a flat tax is that there is a certain incompressible amount of expenses that you have to do to basically survive (food, utilities, rent/mortgage,...)
And as such, low salaries are penalized by a flat tax because this incompressible amount of expense eats a very large percentage of their salaries - and the flat tax just eats more of their remaining expenses.

Basically:
incompressible expenses=$500. Flat tax is 10%.
Someone earning $600 dollars will have $40 left, someone earning $1000 will have $400 left.
That is 10 times more savings for the higher salary (compared to 5 times more without the flat tax).

Highly simplified but that's the idea.

Which is why most people advocating a flat tax also advocate a decent exemption, making the tax actually progressive (as the more you make the bigger the chunk of your income that gets taxed).

A flat tax with an exemption is fair, simple and effective. Loopholes could be eliminated.

Edit: To further expand my views on taxation, I gotta say I pretty much agree with Integral. A flat tax on income with a decent exemption; a flat and light tax on corporate earnings; pigovian taxes on stuff like fossil fuels. I would also add a tax on land (higher for land without use than for land employed in agriculture or industry, to discourage land speculation).

My ideal country would have a tax burden around 20% of GDP, which means the government is well funded enough to provide national security, police, firefighters, education up to highschool and etc, and also capable of delivering some welfare for those in genuine need. But it also mean the government would be fairly minor compared to the private sector.
 
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