What is the world's bravest nation

[Yamamoto]

It sure helps.
Is that a point you didn’t understand, IMO. (Not Humble)!

One of the political support for someone make a war, on does days, were the support of the church, personifying the Pope.
And what that matters were only the European point of view. The world was Europe. The rest were land to divide, explore, and people to convert to church.

“Cortés did not hurt his own cause when he described the wealth of the Aztecs and claimed that he wanted to conquer the territory in the name of Christianity and the Spanish Crown. Convinced that his actions would ultimately justify the steps he had already taken, Cortés set off overland for the Mexican capital.”

 

[privatehudson]

Is that a point you didn’t understand, IMO

Oh I certainly understand thank you, it would be rather difficult not to since you repeat yourself almost every post about it to remind everyone. Shame I wasn't talking about it in that way though...

My point is that his announcement would have been useless had the Aztecs not been so incapable of defending their empire, or had Cortez and Pizarro not been so arrogant and risk taking. Without the problems of disease or internal strife it's doubtful either empire would have fallen to such a small number of invaders.

The point of the quote is that without knowledge of all the problems which the pope did not control that made the work of the Conquistadores possible, the treaty was a ridiculously arrogant assumption that most people in the world and a good portion of Europe would not pay the slightest attention to anyway. To the Aztecs who did not then know or suspect their future, it's very relevant of them to assume that only a drunk or an idiot would presume to divide up lands over which he had no realistic power in comparison to those dwelling there.

 

[amadeus]

Probably Poland. How many times have they tried to fight off the Russians and the Germans?

 

[Yamamoto]

The point of the quote is that without knowledge of all the problems which the pope did not control that made the work of the Conquistadores possible, the treaty was a ridiculously arrogant assumption that most people in the world and a good portion of Europe would not pay the slightest attention to anyway. To the Aztecs who did not then know or suspect their future, it's very relevant of them to assume that only a drunk or an idiot would presume to divide up lands over which he had no realistic power in comparison to those dwelling there.

Well... what can I say...

Of course it was arrogant... at our eyes, nowadays!

But as slaves is horrible nowadays, you must think as in that age, to understand that ages, and to judge it.

Well one could say it is arrogant too, dispute the moon today. Or discovery new planets...
Perhaps one day, some alien will laughs of us, concerning who discover who (if us or them), or who colonize who... Hm... Thinking again, I hope that won't happen...


The main point here is and will be always, a treaty, conceded by the pope, it has an effect alright.
Take a look at the crusades. Of course was not only because the pope says to do so. But it sure helps and give the “right” to do it.

And on the church perspective, was a relief have two countries with the tools to bring new worlds to the Christians, and ONLY, Portugal and Spain were able to do it, in those centuries...

That is why, the other countries accept it as well. And that it is why indeed, Portugal and Spain grab so much land in the 2 first centuries of colonization and discovery.

Or why didnt England just sail right way to the new world in the 15th(XV) century and take that land to his own? Pherhaps it hadnt the "tools" right way, and also because the Portuguese and Spain already take the step, and with the political favour of the too powerful church... So it was political, and like UN, it may be not so finally always, but it matters.
In a common sense, of course was not because the Pope says so, that Portugal and Spain get the half world for each. But with the authorization of the pope (very important) they start to do their part of the job.

But I understand you understand, and I also understand you.
So we all understand, yet we don’t agree.

 

[privatehudson]

Well one could say it is arrogant too, dispute the moon today. Or discovery new planets...

Only if the planet was actually occupied with a civilisation with comparable levels of technology but a much larger population would that be a relevant connection. Since the moon does not fall into this category, it is not a very good one.

And on the church perspective, was a relief have two countries with the tools to bring new worlds to the Christians, and ONLY, Portugal and Spain were able to do it, in those centuries...

Not entirely, the English and French began exploring North America during that period also even if they did not establish colonies until later. Under my defenition that would not count for much, but you consider exploration a vital part of such matters so...

That is why, the other countries accept it as well. And that it is why indeed, Portugal and Spain grab so much land in the 2 first centuries of colonization and discovery.

I doubt they "accepted" it at all. The English and French willingly ignored it to explore and settle North America soon after or during that period.

Or why didnt England just sail right way to the new world in the 15th(XV) century and take that land to his own? Pherhaps it hadnt the "tools" right way, and also because the Portuguese and Spain already take the step, and with the political favour of the too powerful church... So it was political, and like UN, it may be not so finally always, but it matters.

England was busy with their own internal problems and continental wars for a good deal of this period frankly. Launching a serious epedition into the Americas would have been very difficult. I very much doubt that under Protestant rulers after the mid 1500s the English would pay the slightest attention to what the pope decreed, in fact they'd be more likely to defy him.

 

[Verbose]

About the papal division of the world:
I do know that in the case of Japan it may actually have worked against the Portugese.

The advent of Dutch and British traders in Japan made the Japanese aware of it, among other things.

It seems to have partly influenced the Tokugawa shogunate to grant a trade monoply to the Dutch after their (catholic) "Christian century" from 1548-1637, with trade and missionary work in the hands of the Portugese.

(I hope I remember the year of Franciscus Xavier's arrival in Japan correct.)

 

[MCdread]

I doubt they "accepted" it at all. The English and French willingly ignored it to explore and settle North America soon after or during that period.

That's quite true. I'm not sure about who, but I think it was François I who wrote to the Pope asking if Adam and Eve had donated the world to Portugal and Spain in their will...
And only a few years after the Treaty both England and Spain were already exploring the New World on their own.

 

[MCdread]

Just read the previous 2 pages of this argument. Yamamoto, what propaganda panflet have you been reading? Portugal's 1st Empire was a trade empire based in the Indian Ocean, but regarding effective occupation and possession of land it was a handful of fortresses, coastal cities and key points only, and much less than that in Africa. The exploration and occupation of non coastal areas of Brazil only really started a century or more later.
The Pope cannot offer what isn't his anyway and it's not like he was acknowledge as such an inflallible authority in non-religious affairs (and soon enough not even on those) as the long disputes between several Popes and Emperors (just to mention thye most notorious ruler) throughout the Middle Ages show.
Besides, the real winners of this game were France and Northern Europe, all that colonial wealth went there because the country never really used it to develop her agriculture and industry.

 

[jonatas]

I've always thought the fascinating bit about the Portugese empire was the fact that they were so few they had to enlist those people they colonised into the effort rather than go for repression.

If the Portugese got things right it wasn't by having 2 million of them rule everyone else, but by getting their cooperation.

Apart from being the biggest slave traders.

indeed...

without having read any hard comparative analysis, i would assume that perhaps the largest influx of slaves into the Americas from Africa took place in Salvador and the state of Bahia, the old deep heart of Brazil ....

perhaps the interesting thing to note is the resulting admixture between Africans and Portuguese, in every sense of the word, including cultural, which took place historically in Brazil, and which certainly had no comparable parallel in North America....

edit: grammatical stuff

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I would have to say Poland. For hundreds of years they have staved off the greedy Germans and Russians. Sometimes with a lot and sometimes a little effectiveness.

 

[MCdread]

"Mulatas" were Portugal's greatest gift to the world.

 

[jonatas]

yes i adore them too MC

 

[Thorgalaeg]

This concept of the pope giving lands to Spain and Portugal is a bit unprecise and leads to an erroneous perception of the situation. Things didnt work in that way. First Spaniards and Portuguesse signed many treaties (all conveniently blessed by papa´s bullas) that were very harmful to Portugal interests, so Portuguesse managed to convince spaniards to negotiate a new threaty and it seems that they were much more clever than spaniards and hided them the Brasil real size and ubication.
In that time the pope was Alejandro VI, a Borgia, indeed Borja a rich family from Valencia so from Spanish origin. Spain and Portugal negotiated the treaties and later the papa to please Spanish kings, blessed whatever they had stamped their signature on.

To ilustrate this, after 25 years and several Borja popes, the Pope Clemete VI (a Medicis) attempted freeing the popedom from Spanish tutelage. In order to achieve that he formed an alliancy of France, England, Florencia, Venecia and Milan (Cognac Leage) against Spain . In response Rome was conquered and looted by "spanish" troops (they were manily mercenaries from all nationalities even some german luterans) and the pope was jailed along seven months until the "reconciled" with the Spanish King Carlos I of Spain (Carlos V of Germany) proclaiming him Emperor of the Sacred Roman-Germanic Empire.

Resuming Papal authority was very relative and the the pope was many times a tool indeed.

 

[Aleph-Null]

USA, for fighting against British imperialism, slavery, standing up to soviet nuclear threats, communism, and fighting against drugs & global terrorism and the power of its citizens to resist governance.

 

[Yamamoto]

Resuming Papal authority was very relative and the the pope was many times a tool indeed.

Indeed, a tool to the powerfuls of that age!

In many ways like UN todays.

And the powerful at that age, were Portugal and Spain, the ones who gaves new worlds to the old world.

So one of the worlds bravest nation, in those ages. (that was the topic)

 

[Yamamoto]

England was busy with their own internal problems and continental wars for a good deal of this period frankly.

Exaclty, among other things.
That is why England was not a card on the game, particulary in that age, that is why Spain and Portugal power could rise, among other things, and that is why, they have the nerv to "divide the world to themselfs", in a politicaly point of view, with the power to discuss that in the UN of that time - the pope.

I think the arguing is going in a other way! The thing is not if a pope decision were deifinitivly or not (like UN today) but the power or the nerv, as you wish, to discuss that between two nations (small in size, but not in power in those times) and the pope.

That was always the meaning that I give to it. And of course, if the political order were that, if the political players of those times, were they, then, that decision had an impact alright, as it was proven with the practice.

 

[Yamamoto]

It seems to have partly influenced the Tokugawa shogunate to grant a trade monoply to the Dutch after their (catholic) "Christian century" from 1548-1637, with trade and missionary work in the hands of the Portugese.

Look, the top power of Portugal was in fact between those ages: 1500-1650.

So that coincide of course when Portugal had more interests and were able to act in Japan.
In the later 16th century Portugal had a several lands to manager, few people and severe competition, so yes, japan went second level. That was the main reason, above alls.

But you are right, yes, Portugal were the first country reach Japan.

 

[Yamamoto]

And only a few years after the Treaty both England and Spain were already exploring the New World on their own.

Guys... what are we discuss anyway? Oh yes... I remember now.
Please take note Mcdread, Spain of course, were already exploring it... in those side of the map! Of course no decisions are for ever...
Again, the Pope political decision, after the Portugal lobby effort to "get an better agreement concerning the line division", had in fact a efect (i am repeat myself again, oh dear), and that help alot Portugal assure such big land as Brazil, and even, for instance you have the Moluccas example, were concerning the agrement, Spain let the Moluccas for Portugal, in spite of they were also interested on it.

Concerning England, the Italian John Cabot did reach the USA mainland under the England crown (after Portugal and Spain rejected him), in very earlier, in the end of 15th century.
In a second voyage, he disapeared (probably sunked or killed by indians or even spanish).
But, the first England settlers only reached USA in the earlier of the 17th century.

As I said, I was, initially (for who may remember it in these stage) talking about 15th and 16th centuries, and not 200 years after the tordesilhas treaty!

 

[privatehudson]

That is why England was not a card on the game, particulary in that age, that is why Spain and Portugal power could rise, among other things, and that is why, they have the nerv to "divide the world to themselfs", in a politicaly point of view, with the power to discuss that in the UN of that time - the pope.

England rose to the challenge though precisely by ignoring the arrogant presumption of the Pope and taking advantage of this. By the mid 1500s England had every reason and ability to ignore the ridiculous treaty and defy papal decrees. Hence why our involvement from then on in the new world increased.

The fact still remains that without prior knowledge of the events of the 1520s onwards, any such proclamation was of very little value other than to provide loose moral justification the rampant destruction and greed of the conquistadores and others. Without that knowledge it could only have made by an arrogant fool or a drunk, hence the Aztec comment. The point they were making was not who in europe did or did not have the power to turn it into reality, but what kind of idiot would give away land that was not his to partition, especially if existing power structures occupied it?

In that sense, who had the power to occupy the new world during that period is rather moot.

 

[Yamamoto]

Just read the previous 2 pages of this argument. Yamamoto, what propaganda panflet have you been reading?

Well, I just read the tordesilhas treaty, is where the political division of the world were written. Was that propaganda? Probably. But a political decision too, (wich the main thing, as I said many times here, was that showing the power of the three sides that signed it, and their influence in those days). Of course, after this consideration, we go over and over if the treaty worth more than an UN resolution nowadays.
As I said before, was pretty much the same thing. But as nowadays USA influence the UN... Take your conclusions.

But speaking of propaganda, lets read your theories too (not too well documented in facts or sources, so if you dont mind, I will call it propaganda too).

Portugal's 1st Empire was a trade empire based in the Indian Ocean, but regarding effective occupation and possession of land it was a handful of fortresses, coastal cities and key points only, and much less than that in Africa.

Well where you read that I said a different thing? I am just being saying that: half globe influence with the right to explore, trade indian route, and the occupations of lands, at the begining, in those days were done exactly with frotress and key points. 2 cents for your propaganda theory.

The exploration and occupation of non coastal areas of Brazil only really started a century or more later.

Right the begining of colonization. As the was the Spain case.
The other powers only two centuries after, (17th century).

As I said, talking about 15th and 16th.

The Pope cannot offer ...

pff... that seems a 21th century political overview. Is not what we were talking about, so, what is your point?

Besides, the real winners of this game were France and Northern Europe, all that colonial wealth went there because the country never really used it to develop her agriculture and industry.

What game? Exploration of colonization on the 15th and 16th century?
Not true. But please show me your sources and facts, or I will just consider it propaganda too.
But hey, are you talking about 17th century and above? Of course, special England was the most sucessful, for several reasons and they deserved it!

And develloped agriculture or Industry? In 15th and 16th centuries? with 2 million habitants? lol, what are you talking about?