As a collective, the ancient Greeks. Fighting against overwhelming odds at Marathon, Artemisium, Thermopylae, Salamis, the Granicus, Issus, Arbela, and even the Hydaspes takes skill, luck, bravery, and more than a little good generalship. The Greeks were a big part of the Byzantine Empire, which saved Europe from Turk domination. Even in more recent times, during the civil war against the Ottomans in the 1820s and in WWII, Greece showed exemplary courage. In the former, they beat back the invaders, and in the latter, they held against impossible odds until the Germans got there.
What is the world's bravest nation
- Thread starter Fox Mccloud
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Dreadnought
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Well, mine are Korea, Poland, and Finalnd
Korea - many invasions, never surrendered until th US gave them to Japan (oops)
Poland - had the unlucky honor of being next to two powerful countries (Prussia, or Germany, and Russia)
Finland - withstood Soviet invasion
Korea - many invasions, never surrendered until th US gave them to Japan (oops)
Poland - had the unlucky honor of being next to two powerful countries (Prussia, or Germany, and Russia)
Finland - withstood Soviet invasion
Jack the Ripper
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America - Whooped an empire and fought for freedom without blinking ever sense
Austrailia - Same
Scotland - Same, until they joined the empire...
Israel - shepards that keeps the wolves away from their flock with one hand tied behind their back by the UN
Austrailia - Same
Scotland - Same, until they joined the empire...
Israel - shepards that keeps the wolves away from their flock with one hand tied behind their back by the UN
NBGreenDay
Warlord
Poor Scotland, and those Nobles of 1707.
Jack the Ripper: Israel is not a lamb surrounded by wolves. It took Arab-inhabited land and invaded several other Arab states during its history. Not that the Arabs are without fault, and definitely Israelis have proven to be brave, but don't be so one-sided.
Kan' Sharuminar
Fluffy
I'll go for national pride and say British, we can BRAVELY fight on despite having barely nothing for half a century. All we have is a cool accent and being the best camp bad guys in hollywood films.
In all seriousness, I'm quite behind all those who proclaim Poland, Afghanistan etx etc etc. Though, I'm fairly sure that every nation has had their moment of bravery and have stood against troubling times. Quite frankly, I salute them all, and hope that in my lifetime I am constantly humbled as I learn of these achievements.
In particular though, good old Scotland, for fighting against those dastardly southerners and holding firm to the very end. Well, until unification at least. Go us! Go national pride
In all seriousness, I'm quite behind all those who proclaim Poland, Afghanistan etx etc etc. Though, I'm fairly sure that every nation has had their moment of bravery and have stood against troubling times. Quite frankly, I salute them all, and hope that in my lifetime I am constantly humbled as I learn of these achievements.
In particular though, good old Scotland, for fighting against those dastardly southerners and holding firm to the very end. Well, until unification at least. Go us! Go national pride
superisis
His Highness' dog at Kew
Jack the Ripper said:
*cough*Suharto*cough* (won't make a long list, cause that's unnessesary)
Jack the Ripper said:
and the other holding a US subsidized machine gun.
Ancient Grudge
Its all in this life
Jack the Ripper said:
You do realise we had much bigger problems then "a bunch of rebels armed with pitchforks"... namely the French.
CoolioVonHoolio
Quit WoW, back to Civ.
What about ireland, sure america revolted agasnt britain but they were agasnt an enemy 2000 miles away! ireland broke away from tyranny with their "king" like 200 miles away. The IRA stood up to power foes and eventually won, but those baby north irish stayed with britian, bogus.
Moderator Action: Warned, flaming. - XIII
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Moderator Action: Warned, flaming. - XIII
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
TrailblazingScot
I was kittenOFchaos
CoolioVonHoolio said:
Don't feed the troll.
Panzerking
Defender of the Realm
What about ireland, sure america revolted agasnt britain but they were agasnt an enemy 2000 miles away! ireland broke away from tyranny with their "king" like 200 miles away. The IRA stood up to power foes and eventually won, but those baby north irish stayed with britian, bogus.
The IRA are as brave as Al Quaida in that they bomb innocent women and children from afar. This does not constitute bravery -just ask the parents of those toddlers slaughtered in the bombing of the shopping centre in Warrington. Such mindless sentiments eminate the falsehoods of views of Extreme Irish nationalism held by certain parts of US society.
I personally would argue that the bravery is those who ignore the threats of these murderers and continue with their lives. Such as the Londoners of the Blitz or post-911 New Yorkers.........
The IRA are as brave as Al Quaida in that they bomb innocent women and children from afar. This does not constitute bravery -just ask the parents of those toddlers slaughtered in the bombing of the shopping centre in Warrington. Such mindless sentiments eminate the falsehoods of views of Extreme Irish nationalism held by certain parts of US society.
I personally would argue that the bravery is those who ignore the threats of these murderers and continue with their lives. Such as the Londoners of the Blitz or post-911 New Yorkers.........
Yamamoto
Viriato, Lusitania Leader
What about PORTUGAL?
Once an 2 millions population size country that controlled half world!
And prevail, inspite of his 3 size bigger neighbour, Spain, once powerful too.
In fact I think all nations had their "golden age" of bravery!
Once an 2 millions population size country that controlled half world!
And prevail, inspite of his 3 size bigger neighbour, Spain, once powerful too.
In fact I think all nations had their "golden age" of bravery!
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
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Half the world? 
Methinks someone's exaggerating...
Methinks someone's exaggerating...
Yamamoto
Viriato, Lusitania Leader
Half of the "known" world of that age, in the europe point of view.
Not my words, but it was written and confirmed by pope - Treaty of Tordesilhas.
"King Manuel was conscious of the grandeur of the age in which he lived and its effect on the monarchy which grew ever more powerful until the Treaty of Tordesilhas conferred half the world on him."
Anyway, The Portuguese were indeed very curious ppl
Not my words, but it was written and confirmed by pope - Treaty of Tordesilhas.
"King Manuel was conscious of the grandeur of the age in which he lived and its effect on the monarchy which grew ever more powerful until the Treaty of Tordesilhas conferred half the world on him."
Anyway, The Portuguese were indeed very curious ppl
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
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Oh dear, here we go again.
Britain controlled something like 1/4 of the "actual" world with a small starting population and area of land too, so I always find the use of the term "known world" something of a pointless argument sorry.
The mongols got closer to Britain, seems what they didn't "know" about they simply invaded in order to explore
Which is not to say that the Portugese didn't do well, but I just take exception to the rather selective way people judge such matters.
Yamamoto
Viriato, Lusitania Leader
Ok, I was not clearly enough.
I explain myself.
In fact the Tordesilhas Treaty divided the known world in two, but, targeting the "unknown" world.
Well was unknown for the majority of nations, but I doubt that the interested parts - Portugal and Spain - didnt knew already about the "new world".
In fact, just few years later, Portugal and Spain "discovered" the new world, and Portugal, in that way, could grant the enourmous extension of Vera Cruz Land, todays known as Brazil.
Of course Britain had a major rule in history too. As I said, I believe allmost all nation, one time, in a way or another, did.
But in the golden age of discoveries, Portugal, a very small country considering the european power, did play a major rule, and the "half of world division" was a proof of it!
The Treaty of Tordesillas
was very clear.
It divided the world outside of Europe in an exclusive duopoly between the Spanish and the Portuguese along a north-south meridian 370 leagues (1770 km; 1100 miles) west of the Cape Verde Islands (off the coast of Senegal in West Africa), roughly 46� 37' W. The lands to the east would belong to Portugal and the lands to the west to Spain. The treaty was ratified by Spain, July 2, and by Portugal, September 5, 1494.
It was later ratified, by both parts, to move the line to the west, by the Portuguese King arguing that the meridian would extend all around the globe - limiting Spanish control in Asia. The treaty effectively countered the bull of Alexander VI but it was sanctioned by Pope Julius II in a new bull of 1506.
As you can see in the link (german site, only to be neutral), the consequence for the others was that:
"The remaining exploring nations of Europe such as France, England, and the Netherlands were explicitly refused access to the new lands, leaving them only options like piracy, unless they (as they did later) rejected the papal authority to divide undiscovered countries.
The view taken by the rulers of these nations is epitomised by the quotation attributed to Francis I of France demanding to be shown the ''clause in Adam's will'' excluding his authority from the New World".
With the voyage around the globe of Magellan, a new dispute was born. Although both countries agreed that the line should be considered to be running around the globe, dividing the world in two equal halves, it was not clear where the line should be drawn on the other side of the world. In particular, both countries claimed that the Moluccas (important as a source of spices) lay in their half of the world. After new negotiations, the '''Treaty of Saragossa''' of April 22, 1529 decided that the line should lie 297.5 leagues west of the Moluccas. Spain got a monetary compensation in return.
As I said before, the nerv of that guys!
I explain myself.
In fact the Tordesilhas Treaty divided the known world in two, but, targeting the "unknown" world.
Well was unknown for the majority of nations, but I doubt that the interested parts - Portugal and Spain - didnt knew already about the "new world".
In fact, just few years later, Portugal and Spain "discovered" the new world, and Portugal, in that way, could grant the enourmous extension of Vera Cruz Land, todays known as Brazil.
Of course Britain had a major rule in history too. As I said, I believe allmost all nation, one time, in a way or another, did.
But in the golden age of discoveries, Portugal, a very small country considering the european power, did play a major rule, and the "half of world division" was a proof of it!
The Treaty of Tordesillas
was very clear.
It divided the world outside of Europe in an exclusive duopoly between the Spanish and the Portuguese along a north-south meridian 370 leagues (1770 km; 1100 miles) west of the Cape Verde Islands (off the coast of Senegal in West Africa), roughly 46� 37' W. The lands to the east would belong to Portugal and the lands to the west to Spain. The treaty was ratified by Spain, July 2, and by Portugal, September 5, 1494.
It was later ratified, by both parts, to move the line to the west, by the Portuguese King arguing that the meridian would extend all around the globe - limiting Spanish control in Asia. The treaty effectively countered the bull of Alexander VI but it was sanctioned by Pope Julius II in a new bull of 1506.
As you can see in the link (german site, only to be neutral), the consequence for the others was that:
"The remaining exploring nations of Europe such as France, England, and the Netherlands were explicitly refused access to the new lands, leaving them only options like piracy, unless they (as they did later) rejected the papal authority to divide undiscovered countries.
The view taken by the rulers of these nations is epitomised by the quotation attributed to Francis I of France demanding to be shown the ''clause in Adam's will'' excluding his authority from the New World".
With the voyage around the globe of Magellan, a new dispute was born. Although both countries agreed that the line should be considered to be running around the globe, dividing the world in two equal halves, it was not clear where the line should be drawn on the other side of the world. In particular, both countries claimed that the Moluccas (important as a source of spices) lay in their half of the world. After new negotiations, the '''Treaty of Saragossa''' of April 22, 1529 decided that the line should lie 297.5 leagues west of the Moluccas. Spain got a monetary compensation in return.
As I said before, the nerv of that guys!
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
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I don't really care what the pope gave and I am quite aware of the treaty also. Without actual occupation of said lands and colonisation of them the point is as useless as the "known lands" theory in my mind.
I also understood you clearly, I just believe the point you're making to be rather... pointless
I also understood you clearly, I just believe the point you're making to be rather... pointless
Yamamoto
Viriato, Lusitania Leader
Pope was kind of an United Nations of those times. (even though that isnt too much nowadays, onsidering the actual UN).
Anyway, those lands, at least in during a certain period of history, where occupied alright:
July 25, 1415, departed to Ceuta in North Africa, a rich trade Islamic centre. On August 21, the city was conquered by Portugal.
In 1419, João Gonçalves Zarco disembarked on Madeira Island. Between 1427 and 1431 most of the Azorean islands were discovered.
In 1434, Gil Eanes turned the Cape Bojador South of Morocco. The trip marked the beginning of the Portuguese exploration of Africa.
Bartolomeu Dias turning the Tormentas Cape, renamed Cabo da Boa Esperança (Cape of Good-Hope),
In 1448, on a small island known as Arguim off the coast of Mauritania an important castle was built, working as a feitoria (a tradepost) for commerce with inland Africa, some years before the first African gold was brought to Portugal, circumeventing the Arabic caravans that crossed the Sahara.
Some time later, the caravels explored the Gulf of Guinea which lead to the discovery of several uninhabited islands: Cape Verde, Fernão Poo, São Tomé, Príncipe and Annobón.
Finally, in 1471, the Portuguese captured Tangier, after years of trying. Eleven years later, the fortress of São Jorge da Mina in the Gulf was built. In 1483, Diogo Cão reached the Congo River.
A remarkable achievement was the turning of the Cape of Good Hope by Bartholomew Diaz (Bartolomeu Dias) in 1487 and the richness of India was now nearby, hence the name of the cape.
In 1489, the King of Bemobi gave his realms to the Portuguese King and became Christian.
Between 1491 and 1494, Pêro de Barcelos and João Fernandes Lavrador explored North America.
At the same time, Pêro da Covilhã reached Ethiopia.
Vasco da Gama sailed for India, and arrived at Calecut on May 20, 1498.
In 1500, Pedro Álvares Cabral sighted the Brazilian coast; ten years later, Afonso de Alburquerque conquered Goa, in India.
João da Nova discovered Ascension in 1501 and Saint Helena 1502; Tristão da Cunha was the first to sight the archipelago still known by his name 1506. In East Africa small Islamic states along the coast of Mozambique, Kilwa, Brava and Mombasa were destroyed or became subjects or allies of Portugal.
The two million Portuguese people ruled a vast empire with hundreds of millions of inhabitants in the Americas, Africa, the Middle East and Asia.
From 1514, the Portuguese had reached China and Japan.
In the Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea, one of Cabral's ships discovered Madagascar (1501), which was partly explored by Tristão da Cunha (1507); Mauritius was discovered in 1507, Socotra occupied in 1506, and in the same year D. Lourenco d'Almeida visited Ceylon.
In the Red Sea Massawa was the most northerly point frequented by the Portuguese until 1541, when a fleet under Estevão da Gama penetrated as far as Suez.
Hormuz, in the Persian Gulf, was seized by Alfonso d'Albuquerque (1515), who also entered into diplomatic relations with Persia.
On the Asiatic mainland the first trading-stations were established by Cabral at Cochin and Calicut (1501); more important, however, were the conquest of Goa (1510) and Malacca (1511) by Albuquerque, and the acquisition of Diu (1535) by Martim Afonso de Sousa.
East of Malacca, Albuquerque sent Duarte Fernandes as envoy to Thailand (1511), and dispatched to the Moluccas two expeditions (1512, 1514), which founded the Portuguese dominion in the Malay Archipelago.
Fernão Pires de Andrade visited Canton in 1517 and opened up trade with China, where in 1557 the Portuguese were permitted to occupy Macao.
Japan, accidentally reached by three Portuguese traders in 1542, soon attracted large numbers of merchants and missionaries. In 1522 one of the ships in the expedition that Ferdinand Magellan organized in the Spanish service completed the first voyage around the world.
Anyway, those lands, at least in during a certain period of history, where occupied alright:
July 25, 1415, departed to Ceuta in North Africa, a rich trade Islamic centre. On August 21, the city was conquered by Portugal.
In 1419, João Gonçalves Zarco disembarked on Madeira Island. Between 1427 and 1431 most of the Azorean islands were discovered.
In 1434, Gil Eanes turned the Cape Bojador South of Morocco. The trip marked the beginning of the Portuguese exploration of Africa.
Bartolomeu Dias turning the Tormentas Cape, renamed Cabo da Boa Esperança (Cape of Good-Hope),
In 1448, on a small island known as Arguim off the coast of Mauritania an important castle was built, working as a feitoria (a tradepost) for commerce with inland Africa, some years before the first African gold was brought to Portugal, circumeventing the Arabic caravans that crossed the Sahara.
Some time later, the caravels explored the Gulf of Guinea which lead to the discovery of several uninhabited islands: Cape Verde, Fernão Poo, São Tomé, Príncipe and Annobón.
Finally, in 1471, the Portuguese captured Tangier, after years of trying. Eleven years later, the fortress of São Jorge da Mina in the Gulf was built. In 1483, Diogo Cão reached the Congo River.
A remarkable achievement was the turning of the Cape of Good Hope by Bartholomew Diaz (Bartolomeu Dias) in 1487 and the richness of India was now nearby, hence the name of the cape.
In 1489, the King of Bemobi gave his realms to the Portuguese King and became Christian.
Between 1491 and 1494, Pêro de Barcelos and João Fernandes Lavrador explored North America.
At the same time, Pêro da Covilhã reached Ethiopia.
Vasco da Gama sailed for India, and arrived at Calecut on May 20, 1498.
In 1500, Pedro Álvares Cabral sighted the Brazilian coast; ten years later, Afonso de Alburquerque conquered Goa, in India.
João da Nova discovered Ascension in 1501 and Saint Helena 1502; Tristão da Cunha was the first to sight the archipelago still known by his name 1506. In East Africa small Islamic states along the coast of Mozambique, Kilwa, Brava and Mombasa were destroyed or became subjects or allies of Portugal.
The two million Portuguese people ruled a vast empire with hundreds of millions of inhabitants in the Americas, Africa, the Middle East and Asia.
From 1514, the Portuguese had reached China and Japan.
In the Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea, one of Cabral's ships discovered Madagascar (1501), which was partly explored by Tristão da Cunha (1507); Mauritius was discovered in 1507, Socotra occupied in 1506, and in the same year D. Lourenco d'Almeida visited Ceylon.
In the Red Sea Massawa was the most northerly point frequented by the Portuguese until 1541, when a fleet under Estevão da Gama penetrated as far as Suez.
Hormuz, in the Persian Gulf, was seized by Alfonso d'Albuquerque (1515), who also entered into diplomatic relations with Persia.
On the Asiatic mainland the first trading-stations were established by Cabral at Cochin and Calicut (1501); more important, however, were the conquest of Goa (1510) and Malacca (1511) by Albuquerque, and the acquisition of Diu (1535) by Martim Afonso de Sousa.
East of Malacca, Albuquerque sent Duarte Fernandes as envoy to Thailand (1511), and dispatched to the Moluccas two expeditions (1512, 1514), which founded the Portuguese dominion in the Malay Archipelago.
Fernão Pires de Andrade visited Canton in 1517 and opened up trade with China, where in 1557 the Portuguese were permitted to occupy Macao.
Japan, accidentally reached by three Portuguese traders in 1542, soon attracted large numbers of merchants and missionaries. In 1522 one of the ships in the expedition that Ferdinand Magellan organized in the Spanish service completed the first voyage around the world.
privatehudson
The Ultimate Badass
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And like the UN, many people ignored his edicts making his announcement on the matter rather moot frankly.
I hardly think what you propose amounts to the same type of occupation, colonisation and so on that I reffered to in all those cases.
According to this link you're largest claim could be around 10th, and a whole 8 million square miles behind the British empire.
Of course you could argue that the Asian territories should be included there, but then you'd need to include places like the eastern US and so on to others.
An achievement yes, half the world... only if you are pedantic about the defenition of "half" and "owning"
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