What is the worst Unique Building?

[TheMeInTeam]

Well considering that a lot of your culture is a pale imitation of our drunken (Celtic) antics I don't think so. Also what of the tech tree have Americans actually managed to discover?

Not saying that America has advanced knowledged but most of the stuff done in the tech tree, even in the period where America is an actual power, is European developed.

- Flight
- Radio
- Rocketry (as it is placed in the civ tech tree, the concept has been around for >1000 years)
- Fission (if only due to brain drain from Europe, MP and nuclear technology was largely FINISHED here)
- Electricity (really a shared thing, but as much American as anything else)
- Assembly Line (As placed in the tech tree once again. It is amazing how many concepts are 1000's of years old but are industrial or modern techs in civ)
- Computers (English/USA combo mostly)
- Plastics (Also English/USA)

USA also had a heavy hand in the development of industrialism, stealth, advanced flight, satellites, etc. That's not to diminish the European (and elsewhere) impact with these technologies - it's hard to pinpoint what is most important in a given discovery - but the fact that America played a prominent role in all of the above is tough to dispute. That is more techs than many other civs in the game anyway, even if you only take a couple.

Also note that while many of these have "shared development" aspects, that is ALSO true for the ancient civs/techs.

America is the only Civilization to even come close to achieving one of the victory conditions (space race)

No, just no. It's one thing to take pride in a country, but let's be realistic ----> NOBODY in the world is ANYWHERE NEAR the technology and production capacity to send a relatively-certain colony ship across multiple light years to settle in another system. Just like in civ where apollo program is a long way from a space win, so it goes in real life. Except for in real life, it's even harder!

We still lack the technology to design anything that can safely travel at (or even attain) speeds that would make the trip doable.

Mongolia was closer to domination than USA or any other country has been to space. China or India are pretty close to a time win, also . Remember, pop/land are the largest components of score BY FAR lol.

Culture and diplo wins are not practical in real life. They're not worth discussing. If the UN suddenly takes over every country in the world in terms of military control, then and only then would diplo even be semi-possible...but that wouldn't be an individual civ winning. In real life terms the AP is obsolete too since we have mass media virtually everywhere, including where it was "built" .

Barbarians like the Zulu, Celts, "American Indians", and Mongols should be out of a game about civilizations. America at least has a national culture and has researched some of the tech tree.

The mere definition of barbarian is questionable. "American Indians" is admittedly a little iffy ----> there was never such a thing! Better to pick a dominant tribe rather than making up a pretend conglomerate.

I see no problems with Zulu/Celts, which had significant and lasting impacts on their respective regions. It would be hard to make a case for their inclusion without also including America, but they are definitely historically significant (though IMO they could have done better than Boudica).

I can't let that Mongolian argument stand at all. They did some things that were never, ever done since and were masters of warfare/communication lines of their time. That was no simpleton empire - they knew what they were doing. It was brutal and horrifying, but impressive nonetheless.

"drunken (Celtic) antics" should actually be a tech in the game

Yes. It should allow one to pump happiness, and add additional happiness at the expense of health .

 

[Brian Shanahan]

- Flight
- Radio
- Rocketry (as it is placed in the civ tech tree, the concept has been around for >1000 years)
- Fission (if only due to brain drain from Europe, MP and nuclear technology was largely FINISHED here)
- Electricity (really a shared thing, but as much American as anything else)
- Assembly Line (As placed in the tech tree once again. It is amazing how many concepts are 1000's of years old but are industrial or modern techs in civ)
- Computers (English/USA combo mostly)
- Plastics (Also English/USA)

USA also had a heavy hand in the development of industrialism, stealth, advanced flight, satellites, etc. That's not to diminish the European (and elsewhere) impact with these technologies - it's hard to pinpoint what is most important in a given discovery - but the fact that America played a prominent role in all of the above is tough to dispute. That is more techs than many other civs in the game anyway, even if you only take a couple.

Also note that while many of these have "shared development" aspects, that is ALSO true for the ancient civs/techs.

Ok so I overstated myself, massively. But compared to the idiocy I was replying to I didn't do too badly.
Personally I'm of the opinion that Europe tends to be stronger on the pure science while America tends to be stronger on technology. Neither approach is better or worse, just different.

 

[*Svart*]

thi topic is very boring now...

 

[Eddi]

- Rocketry (as it is placed in the civ tech tree, the concept has been around for >1000 years)

that is plain wrong. American rocketry is based purely on german research captured towards end of WWII, the first rockets have been flying towards London by then. And also in adapting it the Americans weren't hugely successful either. First sattelite in space was done by the Russians [which was also based on German research], as well as first animal in space, first man in space, first woman in space ... only the Moonlanding was the first success of the Americans in the space race.

USA also had a heavy hand in the development of industrialism [...]

that's very wrong. Every history lesson will teach you that industrialism started in England in the early 19th century, and spread towards europe. The USA's industrial production did not really pick up until 20th century, when production eventually surpassed the one of Germany after WWII.

 

[Absolute Zero]

To be honest I think the mall would be the worst, not the dun.

You at least get the benefits of a dun most of the game, the mall just comes too late to get any benefit at all.

True, but there are other late UBs too. I think the Research Institute and Assembly Plant are worse than the Mall. At least the Mall gives a gold bonus.

 

[Ataxerxes]

that is plain wrong. American rocketry is based purely on german research captured towards end of WWII, the first rockets have been flying towards London by then. And also in adapting it the Americans weren't hugely successful either. First sattelite in space was done by the Russians [which was also based on German research], as well as first animal in space, first man in space, first woman in space ... only the Moonlanding was the first success of the Americans in the space race.
that's very wrong. Every history lesson will teach you that industrialism started in England in the early 19th century, and spread towards europe. The USA's industrial production did not really pick up until 20th century, when production eventually surpassed the one of Germany after WWII.

With regard to the first, I don't think you're considering Robert Goddard, an american, who should be considered the inventor of Rocketry, if any one person can be given credit. The V-1 rockets were based on Goddard's work, who was an American. Also, consider TMIT's caveat; it's very hard to specify one country alone as inventing something. There are often intermediate steps. This isn't to bash Germany's usage of rocketry in designing/using the ME262 and the V-2 rocket.

U.S. had a hand in Industrialism, but admittedly England did the most. Also, the U.S.'s industrial production was very significant earlier. It's just that the U.S. was somewhat isolationist before that. I haven't studied it, but I think U.S. productivity in 20's and 30's was ahead of Germany.

 

[Iranon]

Time in existence isn't really an argument against the US in the game. It's not THAT young, and it has been a major player for more than long enough in terms of game turns.

It may or may not be a scientific powerhouse depending on whether you're looking at theoretical research or innovation. By civ4 reckoning it is a cultural powerhouse since culture seems to include entertainment and spreading one's way of life rather than just 'high culture'. Before someone gets this wrong: America is no slouch in theoretical research and high culture either; they just don't stand out quite as much.

I'd say Civ4 is a little skewed towards exaggerating American contributions to civilisation, on occasion painfully so. However:
1) this type of game practically guarantees some provincialism, regardless where it's made
2) the bias is far less extreme than a claim that America doesn't belong at all

*

Regarding 'barbarians': Barbarian status in civ4 doesn't really have much to do with cultural status - some barbarian cities had cultural and scientific advances comparable to the large empires of their times, and barbarians can build world wonders.
the determining factor seems to be lacking unity in both leadership and culture (just the former isn't enough to disqualify one from civilization status in the game).

 

[Kullervo]

We're going OT... I think around this point the moderators might be narrowing their eyes at this thread...

I would say that for me, the second most useless building is the Shale Plant. Comes pretty late in the game, I rarely have much use for coal anyway (Just too much pollution, although maybe I'm not managing my game well enough or something). If it were with reduced hammer cost, might be a bit better...

Why did someone vote Apothecary as useless? Are you kidding? +2 health is not something to be sneezed at. It's like having the expansive trait added at the cost of some hammers which you're most likely to do anyway, since +25% gold is also pretty darn good.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You don't need coal for the shale plant, so you can mine or windmill your coal deposits as Japan if you can afford the 50% production loss in the Ironworks city.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

that is plain wrong. American rocketry is based purely on german research captured towards end of WWII, the first rockets have been flying towards London by then. And also in adapting it the Americans weren't hugely successful either. First sattelite in space was done by the Russians [which was also based on German research], as well as first animal in space, first man in space, first woman in space ... only the Moonlanding was the first success of the Americans in the space race.
that's very wrong. Every history lesson will teach you that industrialism started in England in the early 19th century, and spread towards europe. The USA's industrial production did not really pick up until 20th century, when production eventually surpassed the one of Germany after WWII.

It's not wrong in civ terms - think about the knee-jerk "we have this tech or we dont" terms of the game. Russia and USA were WAY ahead of everyone else in terms of the "we now have access to everything the tech allows in civ". It's the exact same thing with industrialism - that was a largely multi-country experience with innovations cropping up all over the place, but note where the GAME places it on the tech tree - it is required for industrial parks, tanks, battleships, etc...the actual industrial revolution as you define it spans many in-game technologies. You can't possibly attribute its realization to any single country (I believe I pointed this out in saying that USA had a BIG ROLE and *NOT* "sole responsibility* for the majority of these techs. That is true for most techs for most civilizations throughout history - science doesn't function in civ absolutes. There's no denying the USA impact on these technologies any more than there's valid denying of other nations' influence on them.

 

[Sveon]

Ok so I overstated myself, massively.

You really didn't. None of the listed discoveries are American. Americans have like most countries helped refine them.

 

[Fei Kelei]

We're going OT... I think around this point the moderators might be narrowing their eyes at this thread...

Yes, as the topic creator, I'm highly offended that an interesting discussion could branch off my original thread long after it had run its course, and I demand an apology from the guilty parties.

As for the poll, the Dun running away with it doesn't surprise me, but I am a little surprised by the Mall's strong showing in second. I think it's as least as useful as the Research Institute (and slightly earlier), and both are way more useful than the Assembly Plant, which didn't even crack the top (bottom?) 5.

 

[danjuno]

The only thing good that ever came out of the obelisk is the Obelisk Protection commercial parody that somebody posted on here.

 

[Eddi]

U.S. had a hand in Industrialism, but admittedly England did the most. Also, the U.S.'s industrial production was very significant earlier. It's just that the U.S. was somewhat isolationist before that. I haven't studied it, but I think U.S. productivity in 20's and 30's was ahead of Germany.

early 20's maybe, but i learned that Germany regained 1st spot around mid-20's, as it recovered from the 1st world war and french occupation on the ruhr-area [the most industrialised region], until the american economical crisis hit germany very hard, as germany's economy was relying heavily on american credits. that economic stability was also the most politically stable period inbetween the wars. the following world economy crisis caused heavily the political instability and benefitted the rise of the antidemocratic forces (communists and nationalists... we all know where that lead)

 

[Higher Game]

It's the exact same thing with industrialism - that was a largely multi-country experience with innovations cropping up all over the place, but note where the GAME places it on the tech tree - it is required for industrial parks, tanks, battleships, etc...the actual industrial revolution as you define it spans many in-game technologies.

I agree here. The British were the first to "industrialize", but this is actually best represented by the steam power tech. Industrialization proper happened in many places.

The mere definition of barbarian is questionable. "American Indians" is admittedly a little iffy ----> there was never such a thing! Better to pick a dominant tribe rather than making up a pretend conglomerate.

No, better to exclude North American tribes entirely. They never moved past the neolithic without outside help.

I see no problems with Zulu/Celts, which had significant and lasting impacts on their respective regions. It would be hard to make a case for their inclusion without also including America, but they are definitely historically significant (though IMO they could have done better than Boudica).

They were matriarchal and decentralized, barbarians through and through. It's ridiculous to include them and not some excluded Balkan or Eastern European civilizations.

I can't let that Mongolian argument stand at all. They did some things that were never, ever done since and were masters of warfare/communication lines of their time. That was no simpleton empire - they knew what they were doing. It was brutal and horrifying, but impressive nonetheless.

They are similar to the "sea peoples" that wiped out many bronze age civilizations. Conquering and destroying vast empires, and leaving nothing worthwhile behind.

 

[mrt144]

Some might call it tripping on acid. A more logical explanation would be just that I'm not so familiar with the game yet, which I mentioned. I asked if the cultural benefit was the only benefit which would imply I'm unaware of the others. Are you eating lots of wild mushrooms? I looked this up in the civilopedia while I was playing the game and it didn't mention any of that. Granted I live in a 3rd world country and I'm using a bootleg copy so that might be the reason.

Maybe you could answer some other questions. What is a must build building and does it give you the creative trait even if your leader doesn't already have it.

Turkey is hardly 3rd world.

 

[Kullervo]

(not at mrt) Maybe it's enough of this argument, which will either end in one person not talking (Alright, communicating) to another over an issue that is a) uncertain and b) can be presented in just about any light you want, or it will end in a brief moderator message informing us that this thread is unsalvageable and therefore shut down.

I don't know why everyone is bashing the assembly plant... it allows 4 great engineers instead of 2 in every city you build it in. Given that by that time, most of my cities are larger than pop. 15, that immediately gives me a HUGE production boost, and also gives me a few extra 'Great Engineer' points, which I often need to beat Gandhi or Mansa or whoever is the official tech-wh...lover to the Space elevator or the UN.

 

[Metzi]

Bugger. It appears my home country has the worst UB.
Typical.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

(not at mrt) Maybe it's enough of this argument, which will either end in one person not talking (Alright, communicating) to another over an issue that is a) uncertain and b) can be presented in just about any light you want, or it will end in a brief moderator message informing us that this thread is unsalvageable and therefore shut down.

I don't know why everyone is bashing the assembly plant... it allows 4 great engineers instead of 2 in every city you build it in. Given that by that time, most of my cities are larger than pop. 15, that immediately gives me a HUGE production boost, and also gives me a few extra 'Great Engineer' points, which I often need to beat Gandhi or Mansa or whoever is the official tech-wh...lover to the Space elevator or the UN.

Well, for starters, I think I've stated the case pretty well - America and a lot of the other civs that people have argued "do not belong in the game" have been at least a part of just as many if not more technologies in this game than earlier civs. Objectively, because there are VERY FEW exceptions to "other civs also contributed to this" throughout history. #11 land mass ever and a top military (not necessarily #1, but certainly up there) for at least a good chunk of time during its existence on top of that is butter, and both of those are objective also. But, since you correctly insist on on-topic, let's have a look at it:

The rest of your post is painful. In a lot of ways.

1. Factories and coal plants offer massive . A pop 15 city will need a massive empire with heavy resource trades to be running any material # of engineers w/o (or sometimes even with) environmentalism.

2. That is, without giving up superior tiles like workshops or railroad mines which are objectively better than engineers for production. Even a basic boring plains workshop at that point, OUTSIDE of caste system and state property, is 4 hammers. An engineer is 2 hammers for the same food investment...

3. That GPP better be hella valuable, which is doubtful by that point in a typical production city. A good national epic city will prevent most if not all of these cities running 1-4 engineers from spawning a great person before the game is decided.

4. UN is largely decided by who reaches mass media first, not by the engineer.

5. The space elevator is awful in BTS and will generally slow you down rather than speed you up. It generally does not help (and often actively hurts) outside of some ridiculous blow-out situations...in which you hardly need an engineer! If you DO get an engineer, you probably want mining inc if you're not in SP, or a golden age...both better uses than space elevator!

These are all factors that have been covered on a forum of which you've been a part for over a year. Several of them have been touched on this very thread...so comments like

I don't know why everyone is bashing the assembly plant

are at LEAST as off-base as any of the OT material on the thread. You are saying things that without some qualification show a questionable understanding of this game (which is fine), and ignoring refutes that have existed on this thread before you made the post (which...doesn't look so hot in terms of strength of your argument). IMO that makes it pretty hard to be casting stones at what others have chosen to include in the thread, no ?

They are similar to the "sea peoples" that wiped out many bronze age civilizations. Conquering and destroying vast empires, and leaving nothing worthwhile behind.

That's a pretty rough point to make. I'd say much of their influence lasted beyond them...

 

[Kullervo]

By saying 'everyone', I was using a figurative exaggeration or whatever the right phrase is for a fanciful hyperbole. One of the recent posts was expressing surprise at the fact that the assembly plant has so few votes. In fact, the AP has a much higher than average amount of votes. I was merely pointing this out in a way which is very much like everyday conversation between teenagers, one of whom I am. Please fogive me if I have inadvertedly caused any confusion.

Most of the games I play are either on rocky or arid climates. They tend to be shorter on food and overabundant in production tiles. I prefer chain farming to workshops, and riverside windmills to mines. The extra engineers compensate for the lost hammers. Plus, I tend to run Representation, and therefore the engineers also give me extra beakers.

Maybe the space elevators sucks, but whenever the AI gets it, I tend to lose because they build thrusters way too quickly. And I rather like the animation for the SE. Just one of my little quirks.

While I generally do not have a *massive* empire, I do space out my cities, and have a lot of land area in my empire. Mostly, I have plenty of health resources, and trade for the ones I don't have. Naturally, I have all the health-increasing buildings as well, so usually, I don't even have a bad health indicator on my cities. Besides, having health problems isn't that bad. It's just -1 food per

I don't streamline mass media. I like having wars in the later game, and so I tend to research military techs. Occasionally, I get Mass Media myself, but usually I prefer to trade for it (with one of my vassals or close friends). And in those cases, I need a GE to offset the head start that my rivals have.

And I am not casting stones at anything in this thread except at arguments that are wildly off-topic, like the 'which civ does not deserve to be in the game' discussion. I fully understand that some people don't like certain UB's, I just was not certain why. Not to many commentaries apart from too much , which I thought was not a big problem. Again I fully apologize if I have caused any insult.