What ordinary men can do: The bombing of Hiroshima

[The Yankee]

Well, if MacArthur had his wish, they would have been used on China. But by then, the Soviets had the bomb as well....

 

[Marla_Singer]

I was thinking that, where would the bomb have been used if they hadn't dropped it on Japan? Would it have been used in the Korean War instead?

Well, we can't change what has already occured but I guess that the US gouvernment could have chosen a purely military target for its first nuclear bombing. Maybe bombing cities could have come only afterwards.

The thing is that I personally don't bite that an invasion of Japan would have necessarily cause millions of death in both sides. I don't believe this mostly because Japan was starving at this time of the war. It's been a year that there were no rice anymore on the archipella. However, my personal opinion remains that the lesser evil would have certainly be to nuke military target first. I'm pretty confident that's what Truman would have done if he was aware about the devastating effects of the radiations.

 

[Strider]

Well, we can't change what has already occured but I guess that the US gouvernment could have chosen a purely military target for its first nuclear bombing. Maybe bombing cities could have come only afterwards.

The thing is that I personally don't bite that an invasion of Japan would have necessarily cause millions of death in both sides. I don't believe this mostly because Japan was starving at this time of the war. It's been a year that there were no rice anymore on the archipella. However, my personal opinion remains that the lesser evil would have certainly be to nuke military target first. I'm pretty confident that's what Truman would have done if he was aware about the devastating effects of the radiations.

Both were Military Targets. Hiroshima was home to two Japanese infantry divisions and an ammo dump. Nagasaki was less of a military target, but it was still the home of the Mitsubishi factories, which were responsible for the majority of Japans Ground vechiles.

The large majority of "military targets" are in heavily populated cities. There's no point in protecting a ton of dust.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

The atomic bombs dropped on Japan most likely saved my Grandfather’s life. His battle group was assigned for a mainland invasion of Japan. Everybody in his unit was frightened about the prospect of such a massive operation.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Both were Military Targets. Hiroshima was home to two Japanese infantry divisions and an ammo dump. Nagasaki was less of a military target, but it was still the home of the Mitsubishi factories, which were responsible for the majority of Japans Ground vechiles.

The large majority of "military targets" are in heavily populated cities. There's no point in protecting a ton of dust.

I know this perfectly Strider... and that's exactly why I've talked about purely military targets.

Next time you should read more carefully a post before answering it.

 

[Marla_Singer]

The atomic bombs dropped on Japan most likely saved my Grandfather’s life. His battle group was assigned for a mainland invasion of Japan. Everybody in his unit was frightened about the prospect of such a massive operation.

You can't know this so don't say it.

What if I say that Kennedy's assassination has saved my life ? Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. We can't read in crystal balls so we can't know what would have happened without preemptive nukes, strikes or whatever.

 

[JtheJackal]

They wanted to bomb areas that were mostly untounched by previous bombings so they could see the full effect of the bomb.

I guess there was a POW camp in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki because I read somewhere that American POWs died in the bombings.

 

[Rik Meleet]

War criminal. He should be executed, as well as those who helped him and those who gave that order.

Please no nonsense about that it was necessary etc. It wasn't. US gov. hasn't even tried to show the Japanese the destructive power of the new device, for example on some purely military target or in safe distance from a big coastal city. They used it twice, they attacked civilian targets and they killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. It was a war crime and nothing can change that.

you and I are agreeing on something ....

I think the dropping of the nuclear bombs are the worst act of terrorism and warcrimes of the last 100 years. Why? Because Japan was already cut off from its oil-supply Also; the nukes were thrown on civilians. So it was unneccesary and target at the innocent. That is a warcrime in my book.

It was done because of emotional reasons; to seek revenge for Pearl Harbour. That is terrorism in my book. Also geo-political reasons were used. Russia had promissed Roosevelt in Yalta that 3 months after Germany was defeated (May 8th 1945) Russia would declare war on Japan. Truman didn't want the Russians in Manchuria anymore, so just days before Russia had to declare he nukes Japan. That is never justifyable in my book.

For the people who still think Japan surrendered because of those 2 nuclear bombs: here a history class on the end of the second world war.

August 6 1945: Nuke hits Hiroshima
August 8 1945: Russia declares war on Japan.
August 9 1945 - early morning. Russia starts its biggest campaign of the war; in Manchuria. An area of 1000 miles by 1500 miles is captured in just days. By August 21st the Russians have reached Beijing and Seoul.
August 9 1945 - shortly before 11:00 am: Nuke hits Nagasaki.
August 9 1945 - meeting of the Supreme War Council of Japan was held. The realisation that Russia had declared on Japan, as well as having no more strategic resources and their cities (still largely build of rice-paper) were in ruins due to incendiaries (which were used since May 1945) and nukes. The War council held a vote. The vote was even, so Emperor Hirohito was asked for an Imperial decision. He appeared at the Council himself and announced that "in order to spare the people further suffering, the terms of the Potsdam ultimatmum were to be accepted".
August 21 1945. Russians capture Port Arthur. "Truman's attempt to keep the Russians out of Manchuria had failed".

 

[Stylesjl]

I think the war was actually ended because of the russians joining in. The japanese thought that they would get a better deal if the americans occupied them.

The bombs were mostly a demonstration to everyone about american military might

 

[Riesstiu IV]

You can't know this so don't say it.

What if I say that Kennedy's assassination has saved my life ? Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. We can't read in crystal balls so we can't know what would have happened without preemptive nukes, strikes or whatever.

His job was extremely high risk, especially given the nature of Japanese defense during WWII. Since he saw action fairly late in the war, he was spared from the island hopping campaigns. Seeing as my grandfather would have been involved with the first wave of an amphibious invasion, he would have died. Just like the first wave of soldiers to land on beaches of Normandy on D-day.

 

[Strider]

I know this perfectly Strider... and that's exactly why I've talked about purely military targets.

Next time you should read more carefully a post before answering it.

As I also pointed out in the above post. Most major military installations are in highly populated areas. You can't choose just purely military targets, because there are none. Sure, you can just bomb a military installation with a conventional bomb, but when your dealing with a massive explosion on the scale of a atomic bomb, you don't have much of a choice.

 

[Strider]

you and I are agreeing on something ....

I think the dropping of the nuclear bombs are the worst act of terrorism and warcrimes of the last 100 years. Why? Because Japan was already cut off from its oil-supply Also; the nukes were thrown on civilians. So it was unneccesary and target at the innocent. That is a warcrime in my book.

It was done because of emotional reasons; to seek revenge for Pearl Harbour. That is terrorism in my book. Also geo-political reasons were used. Russia had promissed Roosevelt in Yalta that 3 months after Germany was defeated (May 8th 1945) Russia would declare war on Japan. Truman didn't want the Russians in Manchuria anymore, so just days before Russia had to declare he nukes Japan. That is never justifyable in my book.

For the people who still think Japan surrendered because of those 2 nuclear bombs: here a history class on the end of the second world war.

August 6 1945: Nuke hits Hiroshima
August 8 1945: Russia declares war on Japan.
August 9 1945 - early morning. Russia starts its biggest campaign of the war; in Manchuria. An area of 1000 miles by 1500 miles is captured in just days. By August 21st the Russians have reached Beijing and Seoul.
August 9 1945 - shortly before 11:00 am: Nuke hits Nagasaki.
August 9 1945 - meeting of the Supreme War Council of Japan was held. The realisation that Russia had declared on Japan, as well as having no more strategic resources and their cities (still largely build of rice-paper) were in ruins due to incendiaries (which were used since May 1945) and nukes. The War council held a vote. The vote was even, so Emperor Hirohito was asked for an Imperial decision. He appeared at the Council himself and announced that "in order to spare the people further suffering, the terms of the Potsdam ultimatmum were to be accepted".
August 21 1945. Russians capture Port Arthur. "Truman's attempt to keep the Russians out of Manchuria had failed".

Wikipedia says otherwise:

Historian Victor Davis Hanson points to the increased Japanese resistance, futile as it was in retrospect, as the war came to its inevitable conclusion. The Battle of Okinawa showed this determination to fight on at all costs. More than 110,000 Japanese and 12,000 American troops were killed in the bloodiest battle of the Pacific theater, just 8 weeks before Japan's final surrender. When the Soviet Union declared war on Japan on August 8, 1945 and carried out Operation August Storm, the Japanese Imperial Army ordered its ill-supplied and weakened forces in Manchuria to fight to the last man, an order which it carried out. Major General Masakazu Amanu, chief of the operations section at Japanese Imperial Headquarters, stated that he was absolutely convinced his defensive preparations, begun in early 1944, could repel any Allied invasion of the home islands with minimum losses. The Japanese would not give up easily because of their strong tradition of pride and honor: Many followed the Samurai code and would fight until the very last man was dead.

The conventional bombardment was killing tens of thousands each week in Japan, directly and indirectly. The submarine blockade and the U.S. Army Air Force's mining operation, Operation Starvation, had effectively cut off Japan's imports. A complementary operation against Japan's railways was about to begin, isolating the cities of southern Honshu from the food grown elsewhere in the Home Islands. This, combined with the delay in relief supplies from the Allies, could have resulted in a far greater death toll, due to famine and malnutrition, than actually occurred. "Immediately after the defeat, some estimated that 10 million people were likely to starve to death", noted historian Daikichi Irokawa. Meanwhile, in addition to the Soviet attacks, offensives were scheduled in southern China, and Malaysia. As a result of the war, noncombatants were dying throughout Asia at a rate of about 200,000 per month.

an order given by the Japanese War Ministry on August 1, 1944. The order dealt with the disposal and execution of all Allied POW's, numbering over 100,000, if an invasion of the Japanese mainland took place.

 

[Zardnaar]

Japan may have surrendered anyway but thats a big if involving a gamble of 1 million allied soldiers lives. Even at the end of the war there was an attempted coup by the hardliners who didn't want to surrender. The Japanese brought it on themselves by waging a war of aggression and refusing to surrender when it was obvious they had lost. They were willing to risk an invasion an civilian kamikaze attacks to use as a bargainiing chip in any peace talks.

japans wartime conduct was also the worst out of all powers in the war. If you don't believe me have a look at what they got up to in China. Puts the Holocaust to shame. Even the Germans treated allied prisoners of war better than the Japanese. Baatan death march anyone? The civilians were a valid target as they were to be used in the defense of Japan and were being armed with bamboo spears. Die in an atomic blast or get shot by US forces- the end result is the same except less die in the A bomb blast compared to an invasion.

Even now Japan still refuse to apologise or acknowledge the crimes their regime got up to. Theres a reason theres alot of Chinese in particular have a low opinion of Japan. its easy to sit in front of a computer chair 60 years after the event and judge the Americans. At the time Japan was refusing to surrender and the Allies had experience in Iwo Jima and Okinawa. The expectations of an invasion were 1 million casualties as a conservative number and god knows how many Japanese civilians. It is a fact that rather than surrender on ome of the islands the Japanese military rounded up civilians (women, childrens and babies included) and marched them off cliffs. Japanese pilots were crashing their planes in Kamikaze attacks on allied ships.

All true and well documented. The Japanese culture at the time was hardly recognised as civilised and they didn't bother with any conventions or morality at the time.

Nuke em.

 

[Japanrocks12]

Once again, America did the right thing. Killing several hundred thousand people in a matter of seconds, and even more in the coming months. AND rendering the cities and regions surrounding them as unlivable for years to come... I cannot fathom how cold and heartless these people must been to have carried out the order, without hesitation, and still have no remorse 60 + years later

 

[Zardnaar]

Once again, America did the right thing. Killing several hundred thousand people in a matter of seconds, and even more in the coming months. AND rendering the cities and regions surrounding them as unlivable for years to come... I cannot fathom how cold and heartless these people must been to have carried out the order, without hesitation, and still have no remorse 60 + years later

See the above post about Japans conduct during the war. Not alot of sympathy.

 

[Japanrocks12]

Did the civilians who were brainwashed by Japanese propaganda have any say in the Japanese war conduct? Or the soldiers who were expected to carry the reckless orders with swift brutality? I would think not.

 

[BasketCase]

What really troubles me is that all these years later, they still feel no remorse. How is that possible? How can ordinary men commit such horrific acts, and feel nothing?

Take a look at everything that's going wrong in the world right now. Sudan. Niger. Tsunami. London train bombings. Global warming. Increasing disparity of wealth. (Well, some of you would dispute some of the entries in this list, but you get the idea)

With everything that's messed up in the world, how is it that we CFC'ers can edit them out of our consciousness and say:

"Hi, how are you today?"

"Hey, check out the latest pics in the Babe Thread!"

"What's your favorite music?"

"Can anybody help me fix my PC?"

"Have you tried Half-Life 2 yet?"

"rofl p0zr u sux0r"

Etc etc etc.


You and I basically have to edit out all of life's disasters in order to be able to function on a day-to-day basis.

Your local doctor is probably an excellent close-at-hand example. Doctors meet people with all manner of horrific ailments every single day. Surgeons actually get in there and see things the rest of us only see in really grisly horror movies. And of course, they lose patients now and then. A doctor has to emotionally detach himself from all of it. Or he's going to have a nervous breakdown.

On the flip side--there's no way we can really know what the guys who dropped The Bomb are actually feeling. Only what they say. What are they actually thinking? Only Miss Cleo knows, and she ain't talkin'.

 

[Japanrocks12]

Take a look at everything that's going wrong in the world right now. Sudan. Niger. Tsunami. London train bombings. Global warming. Increasing disparity of wealth. (Well, some of you would dispute some of the entries in this list, but you get the idea)

With everything that's messed up in the world, how is it that we CFC'ers can edit them out of our consciousness and say:

"Hi, how are you today?"

"Hey, check out the latest pics in the Babe Thread!"

"What's your favorite music?"

"Can anybody help me fix my PC?"

"Have you tried Half-Life 2 yet?"

"rofl p0zr u sux0r"

Etc etc etc.


You and I basically have to edit out all of life's disasters in order to be able to function on a day-to-day basis.

Your local doctor is probably an excellent close-at-hand example. Doctors meet people with all manner of horrific ailments every single day. Surgeons actually get in there and see things the rest of us only see in really grisly horror movies. And of course, they lose patients now and then. A doctor has to emotionally detach himself from all of it. Or he's going to have a nervous breakdown.

On the flip side--there's no way we can really know what the guys who dropped The Bomb are actually feeling. Only what they say. What are they actually thinking? Only Miss Cleo knows, and she ain't talkin'.

I question the coherence of your argument.

 

[Winner]

But the bombing of civilian populations in Germany and Japan with conventional weapons was an illegal order, right? Execute them as well.

And those conventional bombing killed just as many people as the two atomic bombs.

Sure it did. But (!) this bombing was almost always (with exception of few killer raids, e.g. Dresden) aimed on the industrial targets. US bombing of Japan (firebombing and nuclear bobming) was meant to kill as many civilians as possible.

You had your little revenge for Pearl Harbor, huh?

Ohh now I see.

Only the ones who were pleased that their bombs exploded should get the death penalty?

No you don't. I just said that being proud of mass murder is beyond my comprehension.

You know, when the Czech lands were occupied, one of the resistance groups prepared some bacterias to be spread by the water. The original plan was to kill as many Germans as possible. This plan was refused, because it would kill innocent people.

But some people obviously don't make differences between enemy combatants and population.

Seriously though, I can't imagine him saying that sentence while laughing and slapping his knee. I just don't see the "happiness" in it. It was just the truth.

Then it is even more sad.

If that one comment makes you so angry then you should see what some Japanese veterans say about killing people in China. Eat your heart out Wafen SS.

There is one thing that all people must understand - the very fact the bad boys are doing evil things does not allow them to do it too and then say "hey, it was neccessary, they did it too, it was for freedom and democracy and blah blah blah".

No, no, no, no and no. War crime is a war crime. Even the good boys can do war crimes.

 

[Zardnaar]

Did the civilians who were brainwashed by Japanese propaganda have any say in the Japanese war conduct? Or the soldiers who were expected to carry the reckless orders with swift brutality? I would think not.

Brainwashed may not be the right word. Japans cultural values and more were very far removed from western ideals. In 1945 Japan had only been an industrial country for a few decades. The mindset was almost medievil and the Bushido code was still idolised. Even if they were brainwashed that still means they're dangerous. Even today a nations civilians suffer for the actions of their leaders