What should we consider as exploits?

[Mesix]

I posted a thread in the General Forums about using Carl Sagan to finish not only SS projects, but also to build late game wonders and districts each turn for several turns afterward using the overflow production. The exploit is based on stacking bonuses to generate massive production overflow when using Carl Sagan on a SS project. Not sure if it should be banned or not for GOTM, but thought it prudent to share my experience.

In my game, Carl Sagan:

Rushed a Mars project
Completed an Entertainment District (late game)
Built a Stadium (Arena and Zoo purchased turn after District finished)
Rushed The Estadio Do Maracana wonder in a single turn
and continued to generate about 9 Campus Research projects (one each turn) before running out of overflow production

 

[hongyu20]

Almost all fast science victories in GOTM rely pretty heavily on a strategy that involves using Big Ben and Democracy to buy Carl Sagan and Stephanie Kwolek before rushing the space projects , if this is banned , it would increase end timings by 30 to 40 turns .
Also , in my opinion , this is not an exploit , more of a overpowered game mechanic .

 

[Mesix]

Using Carl Sagan to rush SS projects for a Science VC is one thing. Using Carl Sagan to rush a SS project and then taking advantage of overflow to rush Cristo Rendentor the following turn when going for a Culture VC is something different.

Also, if all of the best times rely on a combination of great people and wonders to generate this (probably unintended) chain effect, perhaps that lends credence to it being more of an exploit than a strategy.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

I just posted there how Sagan actually slows your victory down.

Long story short, you're not focusing on your victory if you make Science projects and Spaceports instead of Museums, Resorts and the like. Especially Spaceports, they cost 2000 production (Cristo and Eiffel Tower are 2100 production each, to make a comparison).

 

[x2Madda]

I just posted there how Sagan actually slows your victory down.

Long story short, you're not focusing on your victory if you make Science projects and Spaceports instead of Museums, Resorts and the like. Especially Spaceports, they cost 2000 production (Cristo and Eiffel Tower are 2100 production each, to make a comparison).

I don't know if you missed it but this is discussing GoTM and what should or should not be considered an exploit.
If the VC is a science victory and Carl Sagen overflow is the defacto way to obtain the fastest victory times then you are not sacrificing anything building spaceports.

If the VC is anything else then every other VC revolves around mass murder before leaving 1 civ alive in a corner, crying, while you pursue that VC.

I don't think Carl should be banned just like we didn't ban pyramids + liberty = 1 turn pillage healing back in civ5. In general I am against banning things because the point of GoTM is to get better at the game, share stories or experiences and compete amongst each other. Only that last one is affected by exploits and we don't really gain anything from winning GoTM, we don't even get a forum flair or anything, its just in good fun whereas getting better at the game and sharing stories about the game has much more value to them.

 

[hongyu20]

I disagree that Religious and Cultural Victories revolves around mass murder ... , but yeah , the more things are banned the less fun it gets .

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

@x2Madda I was commenting on whether Sagan was an exploit for any victory besides Science. I don't like saying it, but you completely missed my point.

For Science, well, Sagan was almost explicitly intended to help you in that way, so it isn't an exploit in my opinion.

 

[x2Madda]

@x2Madda I was commenting on whether Sagan was an exploit for any victory besides Science.

That makes sense, your original post didn't make that clear but I get your point now.

I disagree that Religious and Cultural Victories revolves around mass murder

What aspects do you disagree with in particular? Both VC revolve around you having more X than opponents so the less opponents you have the faster you can achieve the VC which is why the fastest win times in Civ5 revolved around genocide with the exception of sacred sites.

 

[redrum68]

AI diplomacy seems to be completely broken in the summer patch (1.0.0.167) where in several cases you can offer absurd deals:
- Joint Wars: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/1-0-0-167-ai-overvalues-joint-wars-to-an-extreme.620697/
- Great Works: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/1-0-0-167-ai-places-no-value-on-great-works.620546/

These should probably be considered exploits.

 

[leif erikson]

What is the remedy, no joint wars allowed? Are there turn limitations, as in only the first 100 turns?

 

[redrum68]

@leif erikson Probably simplest to just have no joint wars and no trading great works allowed until its fixed. There may be others diplomacy trade issues as well but those are at least commonly known.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks.

 

[Monthar]

I had an idea for dealing with the making a trade deal then declaring war to break the deal exploit. I posted this idea in this thread in the general discussions forum - https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/war-cancels-deals.622704/#post-14873365 .

This would require the devs to make the changes for the entire idea to work. For GotM, we could make a rule to the effect of no declaring a war for at least 5 turns after making a trade deal.

 

[Eyswein]

I had an idea for dealing with the making a trade deal then declaring war to break the deal exploit. I posted this idea in this thread in the general discussions forum - https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/war-cancels-deals.622704/#post-14873365 .

This would require the devs to make the changes for the entire idea to work. For GotM, we could make a rule to the effect of no declaring a war for at least 5 turns after making a trade deal.

Its been broken since time immemorial. If my memory is correct it has been this way since the Original version way back in the early 90s. Wish they would set it so anything per turn must be traded per turn back and things such as relics/cities/etc. would be gold now only.

 

[Eyswein]

With the new patch out is there a new list (or a new list coming) of what are considered exploits for GOTM6?
Wondering if possible to now trade great works/artifacts and join/request joint wars.

 

[leif erikson]

In my opinion, we need to try it to determine if the problem still exists. So we should lift the bans and see what players report in the spoiler threads.

 

[Shaleghi]

I found that the AI is willing to sell art for real cheap. 1g per piece of writing. Also for one lux Russia was willing to sell as much art as i could carry.(multiple times) Though not always when they have denounced you.

Is this considered a bug ?

(PS I am on linux so don't have the new patch yet!)

 

[Lord Yanaek]

(PS I am on linux so don't have the new patch yet!)

Art sales/purchases (and to some extend the entire diplomacy) was extremely buggy in the summer patch yes.

 

[Eyswein]

I think art trading is fixed. Started a replay of 6OTM25 and got a relic early. Sold for a bunch early (over 300 gold), but they wanted the same amount to try to buy it back; assuming different AI will value it differently, but not tested and that seems appropriate anyway.

Joint wars seem fixed also. Early on an AI wanted me to pay them to join me in war and then they didn't do a lot to help.

Receiving cities as a spoil of winning a war seems to work fine also. I still wouldn't allow giving away cities or swapping cities as it seems you can get a crap ton for a crappy city and then even attack right away.

One annoying game mechanic that still exists is trading a resource per turn, but the AI will give straight up gold for it, though (almost) nothing if denounced. I don't like this because you can strip an AI of its gold and then attack. Even when "trading in good faith" and not planning to attack, if 3 turns later the AI walks a free settler next to my scout for the easy taking, well... I'd like to see a game mechanic change that per turn resources could only be traded for per turn resources/gpt, but its been like that since 1991, so....

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I'd like to see a game mechanic change that per turn resources could only be traded for per turn resources/gpt, but its been like that since 1991, so....

Well that's how it worked in Civ IV which was released in 2005....