What the Heck is Bin Laden's Game Plan???

[Den Valdron]

Did he misrepresent your posts, or edit his own? The former's considered trolling.

Said person chopped key words out of my sentence in order to attack it.

When called on it, they defended it as accurate. (???)

Later in the same thread they attributed an inflammatory quote to me that I did not say.

When called on that they claimed mistake and rewrote the passage, removing the quote and prefacing the sentence with 'some people say that...'

No apologies, and indulged in quite a bit of mockery.

Maybe I should have reported it, but its water under the bridge now. I'd rather not talk to that person again.

 

[BasketCase]

Invaded Iran, did he? I must not have been paying attention to that one. Either that or your wishful thinking has gotten the best of you.

I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that I made a typo.....?

He said in one of his tapes, after the U.S. invaded Iraq, that his goal had been to draw the U.S. into a long and wearying war that would bankrupt it. Basically he was acting like that kid on the schoolground who keeps going "ha ha, I wanted you to do that". Why don't you go back and re-read the OP again--you do not give away your secret plans.

Original post fixed.

 

[BasketCase]

How about: Bush is monumentally stupid?

And, how about: you can't see this?

Nope. I cannot understand that which doesn't make any sense.

Bush is President. You're not. He got himself elected. TWICE. He convinced the entire American public to support the invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq.

The man is brilliant. Nice? No. Honest? Maybe not. Sneaky? Probably. Dumb? Hell no.

 

[Sims2789]

Basically, he plans to sit in a cramped cave with a bunch of men who haven't seen women for six years. He seems to have a video camera, though.

 

[BasketCase]

Indeed, 9/11 is what happens when a smart, capable risk taker goes up against a smirking, self-absorbed fool.

9/11 is what happens when you have a planet with intelligent life on it.

It's impossible to stop all terrorist attacks unless the government completely clamps down with iron-fisted force, and we as Americans are not willing to do that. Sometimes a terrorist is gonna slip through the cracks.

We've got rules delineating which government agencies are allowed to share information, and when. That's why 9/11 didn't get spotted in advance: because all the pieces of the puzzle were known to various U.S. agencies, but nobody was in a position to see all of them at once and put the puzzle together.

You don't have to be very smart at all to build a bomb and blow something up. Hell, even I could do that. You just need an explosives recipe off a web site, and a bit of luck.


Edit: God DAMMIT, Sims, you screwed up my three posts in a row!!!

 

[Den Valdron]

I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that I made a typo.....?



Original post fixed.

Freudian slip?

;D

 

[Den Valdron]

9/11 is what happens when you have a planet with intelligent life on it.

Not really. There was nothing inevitable about 9/11. Unless you've got a guy on the Bin Laden side who is really really smart. And unless you've got a bunch of people in the Bush administration who disregarded the Hart Rudman report which recommended strengthening pilots doors to stop just this sort of hijacking. Who ignored warnings from a half dozen countries. Who ignored the August 6 security briefing memo. Who took personnel and money away from terrorism fighting.

It's true that Bin Laden's group were really sharp and caught America napping. On the other hand, they caught America napping. The chimp was asleep at the wheel. No question.

But I can see why you'd say that, with the right wing culture of avoiding responsibility for anything at all costs.

You don't have to be very smart at all to build a bomb and blow something up. Hell, even I could do that. You just need an explosives recipe off a web site, and a bit of luck.

Just for the record, I'd rather you didn't.

 

[BasketCase]

Freudian slip?

;D

Okay, okay, you caught me.

I was handling some top secret papers, and a line about our upcoming invasion of Iran made me kinda slip up. It's planned for July 5th 2008.

 

[Den Valdron]

Nope. I cannot understand that which doesn't make any sense.

Bush is President. You're not. He got himself elected. TWICE. He convinced the entire American public to support the invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq.

The man is brilliant. Nice? No. Honest? Maybe not. Sneaky? Probably. Dumb? Hell no.

So... you're saying he's Goebbels not Goofus?

 

[Den Valdron]

Okay, okay, you caught me.

I was handling some top secret papers, and a line about our upcoming invasion of Iran made me kinda slip up. It's planned for July 5th 2008.

Promises, promises.

Seriously though, July 5 is no good for me, I've got a Christening. How about July 9?

 

[Ayatollah So]

OSAMA BIN LADEN'S GAME PLAN

... The big problem as Bin Laden and the Taliban saw it is that Allah had withheld his favour (these guys have a lot in common with Jerry Falwell). ...

... He also sees America and Israel as ... agents of corruption, propping up corrupt despots like the Saudi royals, impoverishing people with sanctions, making occasional wars upon them, using economic tools to prey upon them, and using cultural warfare like pornography, clothes, fashion, drugs, television, etc.

All very true, but it overemphasizes the planning and neglects the biggest factor of all.

Revenge. Disgust. Pure unadulterated hate.

The big plans? They're great for justifying violence that Bin Laden and company are already motivated to do for reasons that only roughly coincide with the stated reasons. This glorious return to the Golden Age of Islam is no doubt hoped for, but it's much more rationalization for the actions, than reason for them.

I will now exaggerate slightly to make the point: Humans don't do things for reasons, they rationalize the things they do. Bin Laden is human. QED.

 

[Den Valdron]

Interesting perspective, and I won't discount it entirely. But what did Bin Laden hate and why did he hate it?

 

[BasketCase]

Not really. There was nothing inevitable about 9/11.

Wrong. 20/20 hindsight doesn't cut any mustard with me. Ever.

Unless you've got a guy on the Bin Laden side who is really really smart.

It took brains to come up with the idea of hijacking planes with box cutters and flying them into buildings???

The writers of the TV series "Seven Days" came up with that idea in 1998.

And unless you've got a bunch of people in the Bush administration who disregarded the Hart Rudman report which recommended strengthening pilots doors to stop just this sort of hijacking.

I am BasketCase of the CFC Smartass Liberation Brigade!! Open this door at once or I shall begin killing passengers!!!

I just beat your reinforced doors. (Though it cost me a five-point penalty for bad taste)

Who ignored warnings from a half dozen countries. Who ignored the August 6 security briefing memo. Who took personnel and money away from terrorism fighting.

20/20 hindsight again. The White House gets threat assessments like this all the time. Before this particular one actually happened, there was no way to tell it apart from any of the others.


A quick tip for ya, Den: don't EVER presume to know the inside of my mind. I understand the world far better than you realize.

My post, above, is how I respond to every terrorist attack. Including the one President Bill Clinton failed to stop. Terrorism is extremely difficult to prevent. Not because of the incompetence of government officials--it's because of the limitations we place on their power.

 

[BasketCase]

So... you're saying he's Goebbels not Goofus?

Not taking the bait. Nice try.

Bush is President. You're not. He got himself elected. TWICE. He convinced the entire American public to support the invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq.

The man is brilliant. Nice? No. Honest? Maybe not. Sneaky? Probably. Dumb? Hell no.

There's no need for the "so you're saying X" trick. It's all right there.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Not really. There was nothing inevitable about 9/11.

Wrong. 20/20 hindsight doesn't cut any mustard with me. Ever.

Then you would disagree that Iraq postwar planning could have been handled better ?
Then you would disagree that the Hunt was Osama could have been handled better ?
Then you would disagree that our Katrina fema response etc etc etc

Seriously its not like this administrations has proven itself incompetent time and time again.

 

[Ayatollah So]

From what has been gleaned about the inner workings of al-Q in Iraq, it's the local commanders calling the shots, and an internal conflict between the local people on the ground, and bin-Ladin and Zawahiri, has been over whether one targets Iraqi civilians or not.
Clearly the al-Q in Iraq does this, but that is exactly how Islamist terrorism shot itself in the foot in Algeria, and precisely the kind of impass that Zawahiri and bin-Ladin came up with 9/11 to try to get out of. Attitude polling in Iraq would seem to bear out the correctness of their analysis of this: the US is pretty generally detested, but it scores way better than the Islamist terrorists, precisely because the latter are a bloody menace to the life and security of ordinary people. That's Algeria all over.

When you say that killing Iraqi civilians is a losing tactic, I agree. When you say that bin-Ladin and Zawahiri oppose it, I want to see the evidence. When you say they oppose it because they understand that it's a losing tactic, then I really really want to see the evidence, because then I'd have to back off a bit on my view that the planning is strictly secondary.

Excellent post BTW.

 

[Berzerker]

9/11 would not have happened, at least not to that extent, had "our leaders" kept us informed about the threat. There is no way 5 guys can take over and hold a planeload of passengers who know or strongly suspect their plane is about to be used as a missile to attack buildings. "Our leaders" treat us like sheep and thats how we behaved on 9/11 - except for the passengers on UA93, they already knew their fate and acted accordingly.

 

[Den Valdron]

A quick tip for ya, Den: don't EVER presume to know the inside of my mind.

Trust me, I'd rather not.

I understand the world far better than you realize.

mm hmm....

 

[Ramius75]

great post Den Valdron. i agreed with almost 100% of ur post.

I have to say that the attack on Iraq is just playing into the hand of Osama and its result may even exceeds his greatest expectation.

but one will also question how Osama is going to benefit from the mess in Iraq ? Will there be a Shia government ? What if Iraq really evolves into a democracy ?

From these points. it can then be understand why the insurgents are attacking civilians in Iraq especially those of the shia community...

 

[bathsheba666]

Nope. I cannot understand that which doesn't make any sense.

Well, if you ignore the points that justify the proposition, it's unlikely anything ever will make any sense to you.

Bush is President.

Yes, you're probably safer sticking to basic facts..

You're not.

..until they quickly become irrelevant to the point of discussion...

He got himself elected. TWICE. He convinced the entire American public to support the invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Read it america, and weep.
Were they really convinced, btw?
Or did they simply trust what they were told....
... before the deliberate distortions of underlying intelligence reports became all too visible

The man is brilliant.

Given that you claim to consider this man brilliant,
and given the nature of your logic,
then I'm prepared to consider that he may be brilliant...
..relatively..
..to yourself.

Nice? No. Honest? Maybe not. Sneaky? Probably. Dumb? Hell no.

Is that your idea of a folksy homage to his aw-shucks capabilities?

So, when it comes down to it, OBL is relying just as much on supporters like you as he is on the Great Man himself.