What to do with Great People?

OldDude

Warlord
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
236
Hello Civvers!

I wanted to ask the experts about Great People, Scientists especially. I've learned how to generate them better than I used to since joining this board, and that is to have more than enough food in your cities (in general).

What I'm wondering is that after you get your first Great Scientist and use him to build the Academy in your capital, then what? I've read plenty of threads where the Philo-Bulb is pretty common and I usually do that when it works out. But what about after that? Does it make sense to have more than one city with an Academy? Or should you just bulb with every one?

I like to save a few for Golden Ages at critical times, but should I not be doing that?

Thanks in advance!
 
The most standard use of the first GP is to set up an Academy. This is only worthwile if your capital can actually be cottaged and generate commerce (the infamous Bureaucracy capital needs land tiles and food specials).

The next GPs (all standard talk, here) are usually used to bulb towards Liberalism, which is then used to get a Renaissance military tech, which is then used to conquer half the map.
This, the bulbing, is because the Great Scientist tech preference is heavily geared towards that target. Scientists also offer the most beakers on bulbs.
If in doubt, you can refer to this very useful post : https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/references/great-people-tech-preferences/

Take an Empire pulling 300 beakers per turn and having the gold to sustain research : a great scientist bulb will save 6 turns of research if no beakers are wasted.
For this reason, it's usually advisable to self-tech the smaller techs and bulb the larger ones.
A couple of Great Scientists bulbing into Education and Liberalism itself would then save 10+ turns towards a tech target. That's a lot. Say you've bulbed Philosophy as well and you've saved 15+ turns.
It all goes in a beeline theory. You beeline what you want and trade your way around to backfill techs. So, of course, it's more effective on Deity than it is on Chieftain, because you need to be able to backfill.

So, Liberalism beeline. The main bulbs are :
- Philosophy : it's worthwhile as a trade bait AND for the Pacifism civic : if you get one more GP from Pacifism, the bulb was essentially free (not really but kinda...). If Philo is up for trade or you don't want Pacifism, you can skip Meditation and head straight to ;
- Education : Universities and Oxford are great for PHI characters. Although if you're going to rush, it's likely only the capital gets a University. Sometimes double bulbed, kind of a waste ;
- Liberalism : a hard bulb to set up because oftentimes Printing Press will take priority. You need to have Compass and lack Machinery to bulb into Lib. This can be done on Deity, where you have a lot of margin, as far as trades go but on the lower levels it's probably better to have Machinery earlier and make use of Macemen.

Around those techs, the other bulbs are :
- Printing Press : useful for a heavily cottaged Empire and a pre-requisite to Rifling.
- Chemistry : the improvement on workshops is likely irrelevant at this point but is a pre-requisite to Steel.

The other classical military tech that is gotten with Liberalism is Military Tradition. It requires the least scientists, since you can't bulb into it.
Going Liberalism --> Nationalism or Liberalism --> Military Tradition is almost equal on beakers. So, if you want to build the Taj Mahal, you're almost surely better off Libbing Nationalism.
Sidenote on Mil Trad : since it doesn't require as many bulbs as the other targets, many players try to pre-build mounted units, generate Great Merchants, run trade missions and upgrade ;
Sidenote on Steel : upgrading Trebuchets to Cannons comes very cheap, as far as the gold to power upgrade is concerned, so that's a standard move as well.

On the way to Liberalism, there's also Paper : don't bulb it. It's too cheap.

Other scientist bulbs could be :
- Mathematics for a Construction rush. Usually only done with a PHI character ;
- Engineering for a Trebuchet rush. Very marginal, requires to leave Fishing aside. Also best with a PHI character (Suleiman fits) ;
- Astronomy. Usually reserved to isolated starts, bulbing Astronomy before unlocking Paper (i.e. no Bureaucracy). Researching Civil Service and using Liberalism to bulb Astronomy is a perfectly valid alternative.

On multiple academies :
Usually not advisable. How much extra is the Academy going to generate ? Let's say it's 30 beakers per turn (requires a bloody good spot already) :
If we compare it with a 1800 beakers bulb, it would take 60 turns for the Academy to pay off. Not worth it.
The reason the capital usually gets an Academy is :
- it's early, so the building has time to pay off ;
- Bureaucracy ;
- it's early, so there are no expensive techs to bulb.

Golden Ages :
Are good. And they usually get you extra GPs as well. So, using a GS to trigger a Golden Age is perfectly fine. If you get two in return... (See Philosophy bulb.)

Overall :
You need to decide what you want to do with a GP before you produce it. This is why many players don't like "pollution" in their gpp pool. Because they don't like uncertainty.
Sometimes, you need to alter your tech path to fit your GP production.
GPs also have increasing costs. You can only produce so many. So, a strategy that is devised around gpp needs to claim land at some point. Or else, it will reach a plateau and no new GP will be born.
This is a reason why the high end of most GP use is military.


Shhhh... someone's at the door.
 
:banana: Old Dude!

Generally no, more Academies are not advised. You would seriously have to assess the beaker potential of such a decision.

The common play with early mid-game great people is the Liberalism bulb path, which may include Philo as it is required. It may include Paper and a double bulb of Education. Liberalism itself can receive a part bulb as well with the right techs earned or avoided (Need Compass/Avoid Machinery). Or you tech somethings and part bulb somethings like Edu and Lib - GS will always full bulb things like Philo and Paper. So it really depends a good deal on just how many GSs you can generate early on, usually from an early golden age timed well with a period of peace and growth. (edit: as BiC said in his great post above, I generally self tech Paper)

Golden Ages are indeed beneficial, and you usually want to time one in the earlier stages to setup an influx of even more GSs for the above bulb path. You might use the second GS for that,or divert to Music for the free Great Artist. Later Golden Ages might be used from odd great person generated and other free great person techs. (Heck you might even consider a Golden Age sometimes with the first GS, but that would depend greatly on the timing of said GS and the state of your empire). Also, there are some cases where I might eschew the early Academy, if I have Philo trait, for a Math bulb which can give some advantages on higher levels even though the it is technically quite a beaker loss bulb.

That Lib bulb path can be a key factor it get an much earlier tech advantage on higher levels, like Curs, to go stomp the AI.

There are other scenarios as well.. Like say you are iso or semi-iso on a map, you might look to bulb your way to an earlier Astronomy. But the Lib path is generally the focus in most games.

After the Lib path, the GS bulbing loses some efficacy as, for one, the techs get far more expensive, and you beaker rate generally increases to a point where Gold becomes more important to use the research slider. Still, things like Printing Press, Chemistry and maybe Astro can be good to part bulb if you have more GSs to spare.

But late game the Great Merchant gains a lot in value for trade missions to the Temple of Artemis city or large cities overseas for huge chunks of gold.

And any odd great people generated later can be saved for well timed Golden Ages.
 
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There is a ton to be said and discussed when it comes to great people.

@OldDude care to narrow down the question abit? :)


Some random thought about GPeople:

If I build a early wonder and get some nasty prophet it can make sense to settle him, similar to the academy this happends so early so that it can pay off.
Same with GEng if you get it early and you have no sane wonder to rushbuild. (In isolation GEng is nice to bulb machinery with).

It makes little sense to bulb something that you will be able to trade for soon anyway, (printing press, I'm thinking of you!)

Relative value of bulbing goes down dramatically in no tech trading games, or on lower difficulties. (You are already ahead, being ahead in tech is good, being waaaay ahead is not waaay better.) Settling and getting more sustained benefit can make sense more often.

In isolation, settling the first GSci can often make sense if you don't have a good burocracy spot.

You can bulb military science if you don't have CS/Theology. Going up the guilds line and bulbing through chemistry->MilSci can be fun.
Build maces, promote to CR2 and upgrade to grenadiers.

Bulbing astro is completely awesome. For education you get +20% beakers while you research it, as it has a pre-req (paper), astro has no such arrows going to it, so you don't get +20%.


But the very normal pattern is: Academy, 2-3 scientists for bulbs somewhere education/chemistry/astro/printing press/lib some merchants for trade missions for deficit research or unit upgrades, then golden ages (first with one gperson, than with 2, much more seldom with 3).
After that, just whatever that fits. GPersons matter much less that late in the game.
 
I would like a themed game where you can only use banana resources to get great people. Which might limit early game play! Would have to be a jungle map.
 
Man, this board is great. Thank you all for taking the time and providing your insight!

@BornInCantaloup - great response. A ton of info there that's super helpful.
@lymond - I hope you're well my friend. Another great response. Thank you!
@krikav - Thank you as well! Great stuff. To try to narrow it down a bit, there are times when I've used a GS for an Academy, and then another one for the PhiloBulb. Subsequent GS come in and I'm never sure what to do with them. Bulb Paper? Education? Another Academy? Save for Golden Age? I hate to "waste" them because as time goes by they take longer to be born. But now, thanks to all of the help and advice in this thread I have a much better understanding on how best to use them. I usually haven't prioritized getting Liberalism first in the past so I'm going to try that out.

On another note, I hope you all don't mind but I'm thinking about doing another Shadow Game, this time on Monarch. I can win on Prince most of the time but I'm thinking that if I push myself more it will force me to get better. I feel like I'm stagnating even though I don't win every time on Prince. Thoughts?
 
Man, this board is great. Thank you all for taking the time and providing your insight!

@BornInCantaloup - great response. A ton of info there that's super helpful.
@lymond - I hope you're well my friend. Another great response. Thank you!
@krikav - Thank you as well! Great stuff. To try to narrow it down a bit, there are times when I've used a GS for an Academy, and then another one for the PhiloBulb. Subsequent GS come in and I'm never sure what to do with them. Bulb Paper? Education? Another Academy? Save for Golden Age? I hate to "waste" them because as time goes by they take longer to be born. But now, thanks to all of the help and advice in this thread I have a much better understanding on how best to use them. I usually haven't prioritized getting Liberalism first in the past so I'm going to try that out.

On another note, I hope you all don't mind but I'm thinking about doing another Shadow Game, this time on Monarch. I can win on Prince most of the time but I'm thinking that if I push myself more it will force me to get better. I feel like I'm stagnating even though I don't win every time on Prince. Thoughts?

Excellent idea on the monarch shadow game. I’ll be more than happy to help if I have time and I feel so will a lot of other folks here. Going on monarch will improve your game a lot because that is the difficulty where cheese strats like chariot/warrior rushes stop being useful as crutches, and you really have to start to focus and make the right decisions to win instead of riding on the incompetence of the AI. This is the difficulty where bad decisions start to be penalized significantly and where AIs begin to show some teeth!
 
In some games I don't get more GSci after the first one.
Games with early warfare come to mind.
First it's a teching phase to say... construction, but after that all cities simply work food and hammers, so no scientists are hired.
After conquest is done, I might have gotten access to CoL and find myself in caste system. Then it can be merchants all over the place, and I won't see another scientist.


I played T0-T133 (one turn before lib) in a game with Fredrich tonight, a game extremly heavy on GPersons. Perhaps it can help illustrate some of the ideas that are quite common?
Screenshots from T112 (when I bulbed philosophy) and saves from T0, T112 and T133.
Have shut down the game now, so no screenshots from T133, if interest arises I might edit tomorrow.
Spoiler :




Here I start in the ice, crappy start and crappy land (well, half-decent perhaps) but the capital is pretty good.
However, the huge thing here is Fredrich PHI-trait. In this setting this turns a game that would be tough to what I think will be a cakewalk.

Here academy was done T80-T90 something.
I managed to build MoM in Cologne with abit of luck and alot of forest, so second GSci started a GA.
Third one arrived here at T112, the same turn that I reached CS. I bulbed philo and off to burocracy+caste+pacifism.
Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

GLib and national epic here. Paried with golden age+phi+pacifism thats +400% GPgeneration. Quite ridiculus. :)
Is trying to put the breaks on abit in this city, so that I can get two GSci out in other cities too. (Cologne+Essen)

Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG


From here until T127 or so, I didn't get either compass nor MC in trade, so I could not bulb lib.
Instead one GSci took company with the music GArtist for another golden age, then two more GSci bulbed education (1600 beakers each, education is 3000 beakers, so 200 beakers lost.
Then just self-teched through lib.
Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG



Once Essen/Cologne and other cities finished their GScientists they are instead set to run GMerchants.
The plan here is to build/whip alot of horse-archers while I slow-tech gunpowder. Once I feel I have enough HAs, and have gotten out enough GMerhants I'll finish gunpowder, upgrade them all to cuirs and roflstomp some AI.

Nothing is really planned in detail, and it's always difficult to get all things lined up great, but thats at least the rough outline of the plan.


 

Attachments

Nothing that hasn't already been talked about before, but perhaps I can give even more perspective with my ranting. Also I apologize for any mistakes or anything, this is all from memory, and there's a lot of my opinion

Great Scientists
Spoiler :
I tend to skip Bureau cap in most games because I expand a lot, so I usually just bulb with my scientists.

The mains techs for me to bulb are usually on the Lib path, but there is also something to be said for GS helping along to Optics/Astro, speeding up getting to SciMeth (generally for Communism, in large economically strained empires) or even speeding up some war options like Math, Engineering, or helping get to Steel.

I generally only pop around 4 GS with non-PHI civs before the timing of Lib, and won't focus too hard on them after that point. So there's a definite priority to what they go towards based on which path you are taking:

Lib path:
Spoiler :
1.) Education (1 or 2 GS). Education is an expensive tech (nearly 3000 beakers) so GS bulb(s) really help(s) towards getting it quickly. The faster you get it the better too because it has a ton of trade value and openly putting some research progress into Liberalism can discourage some of the AI field from beelining it themselves. Whether you double bulb it or not depends on your research power at the time (weaker bpt or no gold to tech with may merit a double bulb), how many GS you are going to have around (will you have one left for Lib if you double bulb now?) and how early you are getting there.

2.) Philosophy (1st GS). Philo is one of the best techs to bulb: it's right around the typical "price" of a bulb (~1500 beakers), can be opened very early if you *need* a religion (usually for Pacifism usage), and has great trade value (it opens a wonder so AIs value it). This is the most typical choice for my 1st GS in games because you can almost always use Pacifism to generate even more GP overall down the line, unless you get no religion whatsoever. However, if you are lacking in GS, I would prioritize bubling Edu instead and just self-tech Philo if you have to.

3.) Liberalism itself (1 GS). Can be a little tricky as you need all of Education, Philosophy, Metal Casting, Compass, Aesthetics, Math, Alphabet, and Calendar first and you can't have Machinery yet, which the AI typically WILL have on offer by the time you get here. Also, it conflicts with Astro/isolation maps because Machinery is needed for Optics. Typically I like to bulb into Lib once, tech until it's nearly complete (1t left), then go back and start finishing/trading for the other techs I want, keeping close watch on the other AIs to prevent them sniping Lib.


Astronomy path
Spoiler :
To make the fastest bulb to Astro, delay Civil Service and avoid Meditation/Code of Laws or Drama. This will lock the main competing techs, Paper/Printing Press and Philosophy.

You'll need Math, Alpha, Calendar, Compass and Metal Casting to start bulbing up this path. If you already have these it doesn't matter whether you have Aesthetics or not. If missing Compass you'll need to get Aes first before starting to bulb (bulbing Compass is generally not worth it though).

1.) Optics (1 GS). In a game where you're isolated on your own continent, outside contact is important to open up tech trading, start diplo, and eventually get Astro routes/resources. 1-bubling Optics right after Machinery is acquired will let you whip Caravels that same turn, to start putting out feelers immediately and even try for the circumnavigation +1 move bonus.

2.) Astronomy itself (1 or 2 GS). So long as you stayed away from CS, this will be next on the bulb path right after Optics. Astronomy is quite expensive and gets no pre-reqs bonuses to speed up teching it, so at least 1 bulb really helps getting it.

3.) Machinery (1 GS). In games where Astro contact is the highest priority (lack of resources, crap land on your continent, etc), bulbing Machinery can speed up getting there if you can swing the extra GS needed early enough. This way you can ramp up to Astro almost immediately with 4 GS: Machinery>Optics>double bulb Astro.


SciMeth
Spoiler :

Scientific Method isn't all that useful itself as it obsoletes some nice stuff and the AIs like to tech it anyway (making it not good trade bait), but it's an important gateway tech up to later parts of the tech tree that ARE either good trade bait or useful themselves, like Communism, Biology or Physics.

Typically I will rush SciMeth after the Lib race is over and I need the economic relief of State Property (Communism tech) in a large empire. This means the GS for this path are in addition to the earlier ones generated for the Lib race/Astro earlier, so like 6-8 GS needed by this point.

You need to have Machinery and ideally Engineering already. If you went the Astro path to SciMeth, you'll still need to pick up Paper (for Printing Press) one way or another, and Philosophy unless you continued to avoid Meditation/Drama. If you went Lib instead of Astro you'll have both already. Gunpowder is required to go the Chemistry path to SciMeth, which is quickly accessed through the Lib path (Education>Gunpowder) too.

1.) SciMeth itself (1 or 2 GS). It's expensive and as stated the AI likes to tech it, the advanced AIs will often already have it and beyond, so it's not likely they'll help trade it to you. You also won't likely get a lot of trade value out of it for the same reason, so bulbing it is more about reducing the pain of having to slow tech it and getting past the bottleneck and onto your higher tech of choice (Communism, Biology, etc) faster.

2.) Chemistry (1 or 2 GS). If you didn't go the Astro path, you'll need to go Chemistry instead to SciMeth. Chemistry is a good tech to grab by itself, boosting workshops and having good trade value as a military tech. Also, it's pretty easy to either already tech or trade for Gunpowder by this point, especially if you were already Lib rushing to Cuirs or something. I prioritize using bulbs on Chemistry over PP because it has more value, it's more expensive, and it allows a redirection into Steel if desired. The caveat is you need to trade for Engineering, but it's not super expensive and Notre Dame should be long gone by the time you're at this point, opening it up for trade.

3.) Printing Press (1 GS). It's a hard pre-req for SciMeth (meaning you MUST have it to bulb SciMeth at all, regardless of Astro or Chemistry path to SciMeth) and it will slightly boost your economy by improving any Villages or Towns you have. The trade value can vary despite it not being that much cheaper than Chemistry, so I typically don't like to bulb it unless I can spare the extra GS.


Other/war bulbs (in no particular order)
Spoiler :

Mathematics (1st GS). Going for a fast Writing for an early Library and snagging a GS early can be used to shave some turns off of getting to Construction ASAP. It's not an efficient use of a GS bulb, but it's fast.

Engineering (1 GS). I don't have a lot of experience with this bulb, only done it a couple times. But the idea is to grab faster Trebuchets for a powerful medieval war push, especially combined with Maces or Elephants. You need to head towards Machinery and completely avoid Fishing (else you'll instead start bulbing Sailing/Compass/Optics), and also collect up a list of other techs higher in priority (Calendar, Writing, Aesthetics, Alpha, Masonry).

Chemistry (1 or 2 GS). The chem bulb again, but this time in order to divert over to Steel as soon as possible instead of later. You need Engineering and Gunpowder while avoiding Paper (else GS will bulb Education/PP/SciMeth/Physics first), meaning getting to Gunpowder through Guilds instead. Teching Steel has to be done the old fashioned way, as with getting Machinery you've superseded the Lib bulb too.


Great Merchants
Spoiler :
I have considerably less experience with GMs, so I'd recommend watching some of Lain's games when you have the time. He puts them to good use in a few games I can recall by farming them with Caste System, especially with Pacifism and/or in a Golden Age, and then using the cash they give from trade missions to tech.

However, you can use GMs on some bulbs that are variously helpful:

Currency: the situation would be if you were over expanded or otherwise economically stagnant, and need Currency to get out of the hole. Typically I have I done this with a GM granted by the GLH city, sometimes Colossus too, when I have WAY over expanded (like 13-15 cities before T120). It can turn a game around from struggling to back on track with such a shot in the arm.

Code of Laws: When prepping for a Caste/Pacifism switch but you still need it for Caste. Would probably get better mileage out of using him to start a GA or just cash instead though.

Civil Service: If you already have Currency, Code of Laws, and Metal Casting, this is actually a pretty nice bulb for a GM to help with.. Again, likely from the GLH city.

Other bulbs aren't so consequential compared to the straight cash you can get from trade missions or helping start GAs. But I have actually bulbed into Corporation (AIs don't like to trade it) and Railroad (to cheapen it for trading) before by using a GM, typically the one from Economics if I got him.

Speaking of Corporation, GM is needed for Sid's Sushi, so if you do get one around that time, you might wanna save him until Medicine and found that, if you like Corps instead of State Property for the long game. GMs can be farmed more or less at will with Caste though, so not a huge priority unless trying to do it very fast.


Great Artists
Spoiler :
Honestly, probably best used just to start Golden Ages, like the Music artist. Culture bombing is pretty superfluous and a very specific case kinda thing outside of late game cultural victory stuff (where you bomb artists in the same city to "catch it up" over and over) and actually trying to use Artists to bulb useful techs is like pulling teeth, as their bulb path dovetails with Prophets' -- for instance, to help bulb into Nationalism means you'll need all the religious techs to and including Divine Right first....if you want to bulb into Democracy you'll need all the Lib path too, and Communism require all that + Democracy and Military Tradition!


Great Prophets

Spoiler :
I usually just save them for helping with Golden Ages, much like Artists. Prophets have a couple useful bulbs though. Theology can be used for trade bait and a good shot at a religion if you get an early GP (like from Oracle or another GP wonder). Divine Right is sorta similar but not as good a choice as it requires Theology already. If you manage to snag both Theo/DR somehow, a GP can be used to help with Civil Service, but that's quite a hump to get over first that would require a Friendly trade partner or multiple GPs.

Settled GPs aren't terrible either. The gold especially is nice early on, usually better than building a shrine yourself later. I would still lean toward saving for Golden Ages though if you are familiar with how to use them to farm more great people. One GP could result in 2 or 3 GS that way!


Great Engineers
Spoiler :
Most often, using them up a wonder is the most straightforward choice. It all depends on when you get the GE. Early enough, something like MoM or Great Library can be helpful, especially with no Marble. A little later than that, Taj is an obvious target. I have used them to help with Kremlin before.

GE settles are among the best of all the GP settles. Significant hammer boost and free beakers, and if you don't have a wonder to rush, they aren't especially great for bulbing techs (more on that in a sec) until a little later, so if you get a fairly early one from like Mids or HGB, don't feel bad about just settling him. Especially if you did snag Mids and can boost him with Rep beakers too.

GEs can bulb a few mildly interesting things at certain points. Machinery quickly (for Xbows) or even an alternative path to Engineering can be another use for an early GE from Mids/a Forge specialist. Have Guilds and Engineering already, you can bulb into Gunpowder (though not terribly efficient there). Avoid Printing Press, and they are one of the few GPs that can help bulb Steel (though just bulbing into Chem would probably be better there).

Going into the late game, a GE is required for Mining Inc. corp, and they are a whole lot rarer than GMs or GS for other corps. So if you don't need him for a wonder, might consider saving him for that.


Great Spies
Spoiler :
Very straightforward. Use them as an impervious scout until you need them as part of triggering a Golden Age. You can use them for the EP if you really want to steal a specific tech, or to play the very specialized tech stealing gambit I guess. It's much easier to just sit on them until needed IMO.


Great Generals

Spoiler :
1.) Great Medic
2.) spare Great Medic or various unit XP shenanigans (nutcracker units, mass promoting 4-5 units, navigation caravels, etc)
3.) eventually Military Academies if you run out of things to promote.
 
Honestly, probably best used just to start Golden Ages, like the Music artist. Culture bombing is pretty superfluous and a very specific case kinda thing outside of late game cultural victory stuff (where you bomb artists in the same city to "catch it up" over and over) and actually trying to use Artists to bulb useful techs is like pulling teeth, as their bulb path dovetails with Prophets' -- for instance, to help bulb into Nationalism means you'll need all the religious techs to and including Divine Right first....if you want to bulb into Democracy you'll need all the Lib path too, and Communism require all that + Democracy and Military Tradition!
Specifically, if you culture bomb a city it'll instantly get out of revolt. Very rarely will it be more useful than a Golden Age, very rarely will you have a spare GA you can't save for a Golden Age just hanging around when you're fighting an active war, but if you ever find yourself in that very specific situation, it's an option.
 
If you avoid prequisites for philosophy (meditation or drama / CoL) it's possible to pulp gunpowder before liberalism. I've yet to test how usefull that actually is.
 
Specifically, if you culture bomb a city it'll instantly get out of revolt. Very rarely will it be more useful than a Golden Age, very rarely will you have a spare GA you can't save for a Golden Age just hanging around when you're fighting an active war, but if you ever find yourself in that very specific situation, it's an option.
Very rarely.... But I have used a few GAs to culture bomb a couple of enemy capitals to hasten a domination win. It saved at least 10-15 turns one game.
 
and actually trying to use Artists to bulb useful techs is like pulling teeth, as their bulb path dovetails with Prophets'
Deeply theorethical. If you dodge Masonry, the mono>theo>DR path gets blocked... and it is possible to use music artist to bulb philo (which is not very big tech, so GScientist likely overbulbs it anyway). I think you need literature, drama, music and then both meditation and poly (would need poly for literature anyway).

I've seen this discussed but never in real practice.
 
You can bulb Music pretty easily with a GArtist, no?
If you get it early, say with a oracle->CoL, and then perhaps a culture-conquest of a barb city or something, then you can bulb music and get another GArist for free. :)
 
I'd rather get a GS and get music the old fashioned way.
 
You can bulb Music pretty easily with a GArtist, no?
If you get it early, say with a oracle->CoL, and then perhaps a culture-conquest of a barb city or something, then you can bulb music and get another GArist for free. :)

Something like this?

SCI + ART synergy path
art rank tech sci rank
wheel 10
agriculture 36
21 pottery
42 animal husbandry 63 optional
mining 49 optional
43 bronze working 31 optional
17 writing 1 build library in city 1, hire 2 scientist, but leave points <100
12 Aesthetics 25
2 Drama 53 buil, theater in city 2, hire 2 artists -> 17 turn for great artist
math 2
3 Music (req. Math) 55 Artist pulp, get another artist in exchange. Rehire scientist in city 1

11 alphabet 11 trade ?
8 mysticism
14 meditation
philosophy 12 scientist pulp
3 polytheism
1 Literature chop great library?
5 monarchy
29 feudalism use artist from music to pulp

You can start on alphabet or mysticism after mathematics and waiting for great artist to pop.
 
@Whisker
I don't really understand the strategy you describe, sorry. :)

Generally, music is a fairly costly tech and you get good beakers in return for your GPerson, and since you get a new artist it's for free, and free is good! :)
It's mostly that if you find yourself in a situation where music first artist bonus is still available, and you happen to get a GArtist, then thats the "given" use for that artist.

One scenario is early GLib+National epic and you get some pollution.
Another one is if you have early CoL, (either by oracle slingshot, or you get it early anyway) and you have some use for the culture.
Perhaps you settle a city 3 tiles away from a barb city, you could hope to culture conquer it easily without having to build units.
Or you are close to someone and think that a culture fight for that pig/wet corn tile is warranted.
 
I don't think I've ever come close to popping a Great Artist before Music.
 
Nothing that hasn't already been talked about before, but perhaps I can give even more perspective with my ranting. Also I apologize for any mistakes or anything, this is all from memory, and there's a lot of my opinion

Great Scientists
Spoiler :
I tend to skip Bureau cap in most games because I expand a lot, so I usually just bulb with my scientists.

The mains techs for me to bulb are usually on the Lib path, but there is also something to be said for GS helping along to Optics/Astro, speeding up getting to SciMeth (generally for Communism, in large economically strained empires) or even speeding up some war options like Math, Engineering, or helping get to Steel.

I generally only pop around 4 GS with non-PHI civs before the timing of Lib, and won't focus too hard on them after that point. So there's a definite priority to what they go towards based on which path you are taking:

Lib path:
Spoiler :
1.) Education (1 or 2 GS). Education is an expensive tech (nearly 3000 beakers) so GS bulb(s) really help(s) towards getting it quickly. The faster you get it the better too because it has a ton of trade value and openly putting some research progress into Liberalism can discourage some of the AI field from beelining it themselves. Whether you double bulb it or not depends on your research power at the time (weaker bpt or no gold to tech with may merit a double bulb), how many GS you are going to have around (will you have one left for Lib if you double bulb now?) and how early you are getting there.

2.) Philosophy (1st GS). Philo is one of the best techs to bulb: it's right around the typical "price" of a bulb (~1500 beakers), can be opened very early if you *need* a religion (usually for Pacifism usage), and has great trade value (it opens a wonder so AIs value it). This is the most typical choice for my 1st GS in games because you can almost always use Pacifism to generate even more GP overall down the line, unless you get no religion whatsoever. However, if you are lacking in GS, I would prioritize bubling Edu instead and just self-tech Philo if you have to.

3.) Liberalism itself (1 GS). Can be a little tricky as you need all of Education, Philosophy, Metal Casting, Compass, Aesthetics, Math, Alphabet, and Calendar first and you can't have Machinery yet, which the AI typically WILL have on offer by the time you get here. Also, it conflicts with Astro/isolation maps because Machinery is needed for Optics. Typically I like to bulb into Lib once, tech until it's nearly complete (1t left), then go back and start finishing/trading for the other techs I want, keeping close watch on the other AIs to prevent them sniping Lib.


Astronomy path
Spoiler :
To make the fastest bulb to Astro, delay Civil Service and avoid Meditation/Code of Laws or Drama. This will lock the main competing techs, Paper/Printing Press and Philosophy.

You'll need Math, Alpha, Calendar, Compass and Metal Casting to start bulbing up this path. If you already have these it doesn't matter whether you have Aesthetics or not. If missing Compass you'll need to get Aes first before starting to bulb (bulbing Compass is generally not worth it though).

1.) Optics (1 GS). In a game where you're isolated on your own continent, outside contact is important to open up tech trading, start diplo, and eventually get Astro routes/resources. 1-bubling Optics right after Machinery is acquired will let you whip Caravels that same turn, to start putting out feelers immediately and even try for the circumnavigation +1 move bonus.

2.) Astronomy itself (1 or 2 GS). So long as you stayed away from CS, this will be next on the bulb path right after Optics. Astronomy is quite expensive and gets no pre-reqs bonuses to speed up teching it, so at least 1 bulb really helps getting it.

3.) Machinery (1 GS). In games where Astro contact is the highest priority (lack of resources, crap land on your continent, etc), bulbing Machinery can speed up getting there if you can swing the extra GS needed early enough. This way you can ramp up to Astro almost immediately with 4 GS: Machinery>Optics>double bulb Astro.


SciMeth
Spoiler :

Scientific Method isn't all that useful itself as it obsoletes some nice stuff and the AIs like to tech it anyway (making it not good trade bait), but it's an important gateway tech up to later parts of the tech tree that ARE either good trade bait or useful themselves, like Communism, Biology or Physics.

Typically I will rush SciMeth after the Lib race is over and I need the economic relief of State Property (Communism tech) in a large empire. This means the GS for this path are in addition to the earlier ones generated for the Lib race/Astro earlier, so like 6-8 GS needed by this point.

You need to have Machinery and ideally Engineering already. If you went the Astro path to SciMeth, you'll still need to pick up Paper (for Printing Press) one way or another, and Philosophy unless you continued to avoid Meditation/Drama. If you went Lib instead of Astro you'll have both already. Gunpowder is required to go the Chemistry path to SciMeth, which is quickly accessed through the Lib path (Education>Gunpowder) too.

1.) SciMeth itself (1 or 2 GS). It's expensive and as stated the AI likes to tech it, the advanced AIs will often already have it and beyond, so it's not likely they'll help trade it to you. You also won't likely get a lot of trade value out of it for the same reason, so bulbing it is more about reducing the pain of having to slow tech it and getting past the bottleneck and onto your higher tech of choice (Communism, Biology, etc) faster.

2.) Chemistry (1 or 2 GS). If you didn't go the Astro path, you'll need to go Chemistry instead to SciMeth. Chemistry is a good tech to grab by itself, boosting workshops and having good trade value as a military tech. Also, it's pretty easy to either already tech or trade for Gunpowder by this point, especially if you were already Lib rushing to Cuirs or something. I prioritize using bulbs on Chemistry over PP because it has more value, it's more expensive, and it allows a redirection into Steel if desired. The caveat is you need to trade for Engineering, but it's not super expensive and Notre Dame should be long gone by the time you're at this point, opening it up for trade.

3.) Printing Press (1 GS). It's a hard pre-req for SciMeth (meaning you MUST have it to bulb SciMeth at all, regardless of Astro or Chemistry path to SciMeth) and it will slightly boost your economy by improving any Villages or Towns you have. The trade value can vary despite it not being that much cheaper than Chemistry, so I typically don't like to bulb it unless I can spare the extra GS.


Other/war bulbs (in no particular order)
Spoiler :

Mathematics (1st GS). Going for a fast Writing for an early Library and snagging a GS early can be used to shave some turns off of getting to Construction ASAP. It's not an efficient use of a GS bulb, but it's fast.

Engineering (1 GS). I don't have a lot of experience with this bulb, only done it a couple times. But the idea is to grab faster Trebuchets for a powerful medieval war push, especially combined with Maces or Elephants. You need to head towards Machinery and completely avoid Fishing (else you'll instead start bulbing Sailing/Compass/Optics), and also collect up a list of other techs higher in priority (Calendar, Writing, Aesthetics, Alpha, Masonry).

Chemistry (1 or 2 GS). The chem bulb again, but this time in order to divert over to Steel as soon as possible instead of later. You need Engineering and Gunpowder while avoiding Paper (else GS will bulb Education/PP/SciMeth/Physics first), meaning getting to Gunpowder through Guilds instead. Teching Steel has to be done the old fashioned way, as with getting Machinery you've superseded the Lib bulb too.


Great Merchants
Spoiler :
I have considerably less experience with GMs, so I'd recommend watching some of Lain's games when you have the time. He puts them to good use in a few games I can recall by farming them with Caste System, especially with Pacifism and/or in a Golden Age, and then using the cash they give from trade missions to tech.

However, you can use GMs on some bulbs that are variously helpful:

Currency: the situation would be if you were over expanded or otherwise economically stagnant, and need Currency to get out of the hole. Typically I have I done this with a GM granted by the GLH city, sometimes Colossus too, when I have WAY over expanded (like 13-15 cities before T120). It can turn a game around from struggling to back on track with such a shot in the arm.

Code of Laws: When prepping for a Caste/Pacifism switch but you still need it for Caste. Would probably get better mileage out of using him to start a GA or just cash instead though.

Civil Service: If you already have Currency, Code of Laws, and Metal Casting, this is actually a pretty nice bulb for a GM to help with.. Again, likely from the GLH city.

Other bulbs aren't so consequential compared to the straight cash you can get from trade missions or helping start GAs. But I have actually bulbed into Corporation (AIs don't like to trade it) and Railroad (to cheapen it for trading) before by using a GM, typically the one from Economics if I got him.

Speaking of Corporation, GM is needed for Sid's Sushi, so if you do get one around that time, you might wanna save him until Medicine and found that, if you like Corps instead of State Property for the long game. GMs can be farmed more or less at will with Caste though, so not a huge priority unless trying to do it very fast.


Great Artists
Spoiler :
Honestly, probably best used just to start Golden Ages, like the Music artist. Culture bombing is pretty superfluous and a very specific case kinda thing outside of late game cultural victory stuff (where you bomb artists in the same city to "catch it up" over and over) and actually trying to use Artists to bulb useful techs is like pulling teeth, as their bulb path dovetails with Prophets' -- for instance, to help bulb into Nationalism means you'll need all the religious techs to and including Divine Right first....if you want to bulb into Democracy you'll need all the Lib path too, and Communism require all that + Democracy and Military Tradition!


Great Prophets

Spoiler :
I usually just save them for helping with Golden Ages, much like Artists. Prophets have a couple useful bulbs though. Theology can be used for trade bait and a good shot at a religion if you get an early GP (like from Oracle or another GP wonder). Divine Right is sorta similar but not as good a choice as it requires Theology already. If you manage to snag both Theo/DR somehow, a GP can be used to help with Civil Service, but that's quite a hump to get over first that would require a Friendly trade partner or multiple GPs.

Settled GPs aren't terrible either. The gold especially is nice early on, usually better than building a shrine yourself later. I would still lean toward saving for Golden Ages though if you are familiar with how to use them to farm more great people. One GP could result in 2 or 3 GS that way!


Great Engineers
Spoiler :
Most often, using them up a wonder is the most straightforward choice. It all depends on when you get the GE. Early enough, something like MoM or Great Library can be helpful, especially with no Marble. A little later than that, Taj is an obvious target. I have used them to help with Kremlin before.

GE settles are among the best of all the GP settles. Significant hammer boost and free beakers, and if you don't have a wonder to rush, they aren't especially great for bulbing techs (more on that in a sec) until a little later, so if you get a fairly early one from like Mids or HGB, don't feel bad about just settling him. Especially if you did snag Mids and can boost him with Rep beakers too.

GEs can bulb a few mildly interesting things at certain points. Machinery quickly (for Xbows) or even an alternative path to Engineering can be another use for an early GE from Mids/a Forge specialist. Have Guilds and Engineering already, you can bulb into Gunpowder (though not terribly efficient there). Avoid Printing Press, and they are one of the few GPs that can help bulb Steel (though just bulbing into Chem would probably be better there).

Going into the late game, a GE is required for Mining Inc. corp, and they are a whole lot rarer than GMs or GS for other corps. So if you don't need him for a wonder, might consider saving him for that.


Great Spies
Spoiler :
Very straightforward. Use them as an impervious scout until you need them as part of triggering a Golden Age. You can use them for the EP if you really want to steal a specific tech, or to play the very specialized tech stealing gambit I guess. It's much easier to just sit on them until needed IMO.


Great Generals

Spoiler :
1.) Great Medic
2.) spare Great Medic or various unit XP shenanigans (nutcracker units, mass promoting 4-5 units, navigation caravels, etc)
3.) eventually Military Academies if you run out of things to promote.
Wow, great response ArchGhost! I like how you broke it down like that. One point you made that intrigues me (well, they all do really), is "I would still lean toward saving for Golden Ages though if you are familiar with how to use them to farm more great people. One GP could result in 2 or 3 GS that way!" I am NOT familiar with that so please...do tell!
 
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