What's a Born Again Christian?

[Eran of Arcadia]

So it is, you admit, your "faith" that God, for whatever reason, wants to send billions of His creations to eternal torture for being in the wrong place in the wrong time.

Once we have established that, you are in no position to criticize anyone else for disagreeing.

(as far as the day being 24 hours long, it is because the babylonians considered 6 an important number and thus made an hour 1/24 of a day . . .)

 

[GenMarshall]

The scriptures I have read from and given to you, are most certainly IN your bible, as well as mine......so thats no excuse to not read your bible. Nor have you given me any scripture references from any bible, catholic or otherwise, to back up your assertions.

I have to laugh at this one. Do you have the following books in YOUR Bible in the section of the Old Testament? Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, First and Second Machabees.

He is both. Quick to forgive those that repent and quick to punish those that deny him.

Kawaisou na bukkyouto no sou.
(Poor Buddhist Monk )

Sorry, I cannot accept a God who would chuck a Buddhist Monk into the depths of hell due because he never even heard of Jesus. Nor would I accept a God who is not benevonent to thoes who are of a different religion and blindly casts them into Hell. I cannot accept the fact that many non-Christian friends that I know has a one way ticket to Hell.

Again, read your bible...even that catholic one. Even catholics have standards for heaven you know.

*pfft*, I take it you never listened to the Pope on this issue that they said that non-Christians do have a chance for salvation. Oh wait, Protestants dont even listen to the Pope.

Again, where does Christ say this? Where is your biblical proof?

You are getting close on ruffling my feathers you know. Agitating and attacking me just because of my own beliefs which is in contrary to what you see. No wonder some people get ticked off at you when they have their beliefs.

I have no bigotry in me...and I most certainly have no double standards. The bible is the standard, and what Jesus says the rule. I wonder why that would turn you off?

RIGHHHHHTT, you even support shoving your morals down homosexual's mouths and force them to conform to your morals

I recognize other religions and am quite tolerant of them. You wont see me sitting outside of some temple with a protest sign. But simply, I do know what Jesus says regarding the issue and no amount of hand-wringing by you will change what Jesus said.

As much as no amount of you attacking me by you will change what I believe. I believe in universal salvation and do believe that non-Christians do have a chance for salvation. You may disagree and slap me around with your silly scriptures, but it wont change my mind.

Thats why I back up my comments with scripture.

Scriptures have no value in these parts of the Forums. I tried that once and it did not work. It did not worked in argung against Abortion and it did not worked in explaining Catholic teachings and practaces to Protestants.

Ah...as a Christian, you should. He kind of runs heaven you know.

When did Jesus kicked the Father off his chair?! Last time I checked, Jesus is sitting at the right hand side of the Father as per say in the Nicene Creed

Again, WHERE IS YOUR BIBLICAL PROOF OF THIS? You keep muttering about it, but never provide scripture to back it up.

Biblical proof is irrelivent in the philosophy of ALL religions. The bible is just a one track close minded train of thought. I myself have taken a philosophical approach and consider that there are numerous paths to Heaven or Enlightenment (Depending on your religion). And I dont need no silly Biblical proof for my philosophy. I think outside the box.

There is no magic "back door" to heaven.

That is your opinions and your's alone. I have my own philosophical opinions and you have your own.

I havent called you anything except ill-informed of biblical scripture...which is just a fact, not an insult.

I am sorry, but I am not ill-informed of biblical scripture. Now I wonder why the strife has occurred between Protestants and Catholics .

Then why would you be afraid to jump off a bridge if Jesus said to? Would you go into the fire for him? Into the Lions den? Or is that just too 'creepy' for you?

If Jesus told me to just jump of a bridge, I would refuse to do so. Him telling me to do that is as crazy as Allah telling the radical muslim to blow himself up in a bus or mosque (Disclamer: I dont see ALL muslims doing that, thankfully we do have Moderate Muslims around). I dont want to risk my life to become a martyr.

Sorry, but there simply are not 'translational errors' like you refer...thats just a cop out to make excuses for what the bible says.

I am quite sorry to tell you but you are in denial about it. How many words can you describe with the Hebrew word for "love" or any other word in Hebrew?

Again...show me where it says that. Please. Back it up.

You dont need the proof and no I wont back it up because it is part of my philosophy and my beliefs. Oy, no wonder you give other Philosophical minded posters a headache about this .

Sure, many who consider themselves Christians will not make it. Do you think the Pharisees were going to make it? Do you think those Christians that abuse power but dont repent make it?

Perhaps in Protestant Theology. But not in Catholic theology with the concept of Purgatory. Purgatory is just a place where you are clensed of your venial sins or any leftover unfinished penance before you enter heaven.

The path is narrow, CG and few there are that truly walk it. Do you understand what NARROW means?

It may be narrow as an alleyway, but its not as narrow as the blade of a kantana.

Many brides will not have oil for their lanterns and will thus miss the ride when the son of man returns. His words, not mine.

別の列車が別のプラットホームにいつもあります。
betsu no ressha ga betsu no purattohoomu ni itsumo ari masu.
(There is always another train on another platform.)

 

[MobBoss]

So it is, you admit, your "faith" that God, for whatever reason, wants to send billions of His creations to eternal torture for being in the wrong place in the wrong time.

No Eran, I dont think he "wants" to at all. But I do believe that for whatever reason, there are apparently rules that dictate who goes to hell and who doesnt. I happen to believe that the bible is quite clear on these rules.

You, however, are free to believe what you want.

Once we have established that, you are in no position to criticize anyone else for disagreeing.

Criticize? All I am asking is for biblical proof in their premise. If its there, then fine, I will gladly examine it. If not, then dont expect a whole lot of from me.

 

[GenMarshall]

You, however, are free to believe what you want.

But yet you attack people who hold a belief of universal salvation .

Criticize? All I am asking is for biblical proof in their premise. If its there, then fine, I will gladly examine it. If not, then dont expect a whole lot of from me.

Why in the world do you want biblical proof from a person who hold a philosophical opinion and view outside biblical context ?

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Well, thats all fine and good. Now can you back it up via scripture from the bible?

Or are you merely holding an intergalatic kegger and making up the rules as you go?



False assumption.

"If they said it on TV, it must be true!" - MobBoss.

Seriously, though, some of us have the ability to think for ourselves and do not need a manual on how to do so.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

No Eran, I dont think he "wants" to at all. But I do believe that for whatever reason, there are apparently rules that dictate who goes to hell and who doesnt. I happen to believe that the bible is quite clear on these rules.

You, however, are free to believe what you want.

Clearly, from your point of view, these rules were set up by God so he must want to condemn billions for the sin of unbelieving. If He didn't want to, he wouldn't.

 

[MobBoss]

I have to laugh at this one. Do you have the following books in YOUR Bible in the section of the Old Testament? Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, First and Second Machabees.

I never said you didnt have them did I? However, I am confident that YOUR bible also has the gospels does it not? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? The scriptures I am referencing are Christs own words from those books. You bringing up those books from the old testament is merely a red herring and has no bearing upon what I am referring to.

Sorry, I cannot accept a God who would chuck a Buddhist Monk into the depths of hell due because he never even heard of Jesus.

Does that mean you are going to renouce God all over again like you did over the spanking thing?

Nor would I accept a God who is not benevonent to thoes who are of a different religion and blindly casts them into Hell. I cannot accept the fact that many non-Christian friends that I know has a one way ticket to Hell.

Here is what I suggest to you. Do a biblical search upon Ashura poles and idols. You will get your answer when you find out what Gods position is towards people who worship Idols and other Gods. Plain and simple. You are not afraid of the truth are you? Then simply look it up....heck...even use YOUR bible.

*pfft*, I take it you never listened to the Pope on this issue that they said that non-Christians do have a chance for salvation. Oh wait, Protestants dont even listen to the Pope.

If given a choice between listening to the Pope or reading Jesus words on the subject, guess which I should listen to. Or is the Pope your lord and savior?

You are getting close on ruffling my feathers you know. Agitating and attacking me just because of my own beliefs which is in contrary to what you see. No wonder some people get ticked off at you when they have their beliefs.

Full stop. Who called who a bigot. I am asking you for biblical scripture to back up your arguement. You have been unable to provide any. I gave you direct quotes from Jesus in the Gospels to back up my position. If that ruffles your "feathers" /oh well. Its called losing the debate.

RIGHHHHHTT, you even support shoving your morals down homosexual's mouths and force them to conform to your morals

Uhm...nope. Btw, we both know what the Catholic Churchs position on homosexuality is, so dont toss stones in glass houses.

As much as no amount of you attacking me by you will change what I believe. I believe in universal salvation and do believe that non-Christians do have a chance for salvation. You may disagree and slap me around with your silly scriptures, but it wont change my mind.

Again, you call the bible "silly". Again, do you have anything biblical to back up your position? I can only assume that after this long that the answer to that must be a resounding "no".

Scriptures have no value in these parts of the Forums.

Says who? You? Pardon me, but are we not debating Christianity here? Are we not debating biblical verse? How can scripture NOT have a part in that debate?

When did Jesus kicked the Father off his chair?! Last time I checked, Jesus is sitting at the right hand side of the Father as per say in the Nicene Creed

Correct. God is the guy at the HEAD of the table is he not? Do you think he welcomes those that deny his son? /sheesh.

Biblical proof is irrelivent in the philosophy of ALL religions.

We are not discussing ALL religions. We are discussing Christianity. How can the bible not be relevant in that discussion?

The bible is just a one track close minded train of thought.

Again, as a Christian exactly how do you reconcile that statement with your faith? Do you really think Jesus thinks this of the bible? Of the word?

I myself have taken a philosophical approach and consider that there are numerous paths to Heaven or Enlightenment (Depending on your religion). And I dont need no silly Biblical proof for my philosophy. I think outside the box.

Well, between you and Christ I pick Christ and what he says about it. You are just too politically correct to give people tough news. Well guess what. There are standards to be met in order to get into heaven. First among all those is recognizing Jesus as your lord and savior. And I hope you have a good answer for Jesus when he asks you about you calling the word of God a silly book....

That is your opinions and your's alone. I have my own philosophical opinions and you have your own.

No...I have the word of God on my side and Jesus own words on the matter. You have given me nothing but your feelings.

I am sorry, but I am not ill-informed of biblical scripture. Now I wonder why the strife has occurred between Protestants and Catholics .

And yet you provide none. Not a single scripture to back you up.

If Jesus told me to just jump of a bridge, I would refuse to do so.

Then dont be suprised if he refuses you in front of his father. Heed this: Matthew 10:32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

I dont want to risk my life to become a martyr.

One: What is wrong for being a martyr for Christ? Were not the diciples martyrd for him? Second: Who is saying risk your life? Did Jesus allow Peter to drown when he stepped out with him onto the water? No.

I am quite sorry to tell you but you are in denial about it. How many words can you describe with the Hebrew word for "love" or any other word in Hebrew?

Several. But their meaning is well known. For example, we know exactly when the word for brotherly love is used "agape" and when the word for physical love is used "philios". No, I am not in denial about it...I have done much study in the original hebrew and greek in order to make sure I have a word right. Its what people do when they really wish to get a deeper understanding of the bible.

You dont need the proof and no I wont back it up because it is part of my philosophy and my beliefs.

Ok, good. You cant back it up because it is merely your opinion which is merely based upon your feelings/emotion. Pardon me for then in turn taking Christs opinion and words over your 'philosophy'.

Oy, no wonder you give other Philosophical minded posters a headache about this .

/shrug. The truth hurts.

It may be narrow as an alleyway, but its not as narrow as the blade of a kantana.

Again: Matthew 7:20 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Yup...there will even be Christians who do things in his name that will not make it as you can see plainly from this passage. So, even if they do good works in his name (ie. they are just good guys right?), it may not be enough...whoever they are.

(There is always another train on another platform.)

You may not like where that train is headed. You sure you want to miss this one?

 

[Irish Caesar]

MobBoss:

What do you think about Matthew 12:32, that "whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven"?

 

[MobBoss]

But yet you attack people who hold a belief of universal salvation .

No..I merely point out that there is no proof of it in the bible and that in fact Jesus says otherwise. Thats not attacking, thats taking a position and proving it.

Why in the world do you want biblical proof from a person who hold a philosophical opinion and view outside biblical context ?

Look at the thread title and tell me what it says. Thats why.

 

[MobBoss]

MobBoss:

What do you think about Matthew 12:32, that "whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven"?

Again, the forgiveness is not automatic....its still a sin of which you must repent and ask forgiveness for. If you ask, you will be forgiven...if not it will remain a mark against you.

All manner of terrible sins will be forgiven if you repent and ask forgiveness....except one sin. That is what that verse is really about....it describes the one particular sin from which there is no forgiveness.

 

[CurtSibling]

Not quite. Unlike others who've wielded the ban stick, I don't bait users into breaking the rules and then banning them for it.

But that is exactly what tactic you were using, Turner.
I expected better from you, at least.

Whatever...It's a perk of your job.

And despite your 'misunderstanding', you understood me as well. All I'm doing is applying the same style to you, that you do to others.

Let's cut through the double talk.

I stated that while the concepts of religion are not at any fault; Only those religionists who are over-zealous are
the ones I make critical remarks to. I get along fine with a couple of the moderate religious people here on the OT...

And yes, we all feel strongly about something, Turner - Myself included. You see, even I can admit to my own
traits. You seem to set massive stock in underlining the obvious fact that I am a strong atheist...

So, I am a mirror image of the people I debate with?

Great - But when do I ever scream that people will go to hades for not following my doctrines, or try and convert
posters to my cause...There the similarity ends, neh?

.

.

 

[GenMarshall]

Does that mean you are going to renouce God all over again like you did over the spanking thing?.

あなたは誤って仮定します。
anata ha ayamatte katei shimasu.
(You assume wrongly )

Here is what I suggest to you. Do a biblical search upon Asura poles and idols. You will get your answer when you find out what Gods position is towards people who worship Idols and other Gods. Plain and simple. You are not afraid of the truth are you? Then simply look it up....heck...even use YOUR bible.

I read it and I dont see it that way.

If given a choice between listening to the Pope or reading Jesus words on the subject, guess which I should listen to. Or is the Pope your lord and savior?

Choudo asoko ni tomatte kudasai (Stop right there)! Catholics do NOT worship the pope as if he is our lord and savior. Catholics see the pope as the Vicar of Christ (In the person of Christ) as well as the Vicar of Peter.

Full stop. Who called who a bigot. I am asking you for biblical scripture to back up your arguement. You have been unable to provide any. I gave you direct quotes from Jesus in the Gospels to back up my position. If that ruffles your "feathers" /oh well. Its called losing the debate.

Sorry, I have not lost a debate. If you cant find no reason except to demand silly biblical scriptures to back up my philosophical stance. Then please do respect my beliefs insted of riticuleing them. I believe in universal salvation, and I am sticking with it regardless if you see it or not.

Uhm...nope. Btw, we both know what the Catholic Churchs position on homosexuality is, so dont toss stones in glass houses.

There is such thing as separation of Church and State as well as not imposing morals on other non-Christians (as well as non-Catholics) and loving thy neighbor as thy self.

Again, you call the bible "silly". Again, do you have anything biblical to back up your position? I can only assume that after this long that the answer to that must be a resounding "no".

If I was not a Christian, would you still demand biblical scriptures for my philosophical stance of universal salvation? Most defenately you would. Its called interpreting the Bible differently. I interperate the bible differently and so does anyone else in this forum. I just believe that the scriptures that you showed on religious exclusiveness, I dont see as important or not nessicary for today's time and thus came up with a philosophical stand point of universal salvation. You can eather accept it or not, I am not forcing you to. All I am saying is quit attacking my belief of universal salvation.

Correct. God is the guy at the HEAD of the table is he not? Do you think he welcomes those that deny his son? /sheesh.

Matthew 12:32, that "whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven"?
If that is not proof for my philosophical stance of universal salvation, then I dont know what you are thinking.

We are not discussing ALL religions. We are discussing Christianity. How can the bible not be relevant in that discussion?

I am speaking form a philosophical point of view with philosopher's glasses. However you are speaking from a fundamentalist point of view with fundy glasses.

Again, as a Christian exactly how do you reconcile that statement with your faith? Do you really think Jesus thinks this of the bible? Of the word?

Quit trying your Evangicalization on me, youre not going to put me through any guilt trip.

Well, between you and Christ I pick Christ and what he says about it. You are just too politically correct to give people tough news. Well guess what. There are standards to be met in order to get into heaven. First among all those is recognizing Jesus as your lord and savior. And I hope you have a good answer for Jesus when he asks you about you calling the word of God a silly book....

Once again, quit your Evangicalization on me, putting me through a guilt trip wont work on me. The only standard that I see to get into heaven is to be sinless and there are two ways in my faith. First is a direct path to heaven, provided you confessed all of your sins and have done all of your penances. Second is a path through purgitory where your venial sins are cleansed away (and yes, this does include rejecting Jesus) and unfinished penances, and then you head to heaven.

Politically Correct? I dont think so.

No...I have the word of God on my side and Jesus own words on the matter. You have given me nothing but your feelings.

So anything philosophical to you is feelings?! I fail to see how my words are feelings

And yet you provide none. Not a single scripture to back you up.

As a Moderate Catholic Christian. I dont care if there is no scriptures to back me up, what matters is my own views and my own beliefs. Again as Irish Ceaser puts out, ponder on this:

Matthew 12:32, that "whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven"?

Then dont be suprised if he refuses you in front of his father. Heed this: Matthew 10:32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Your guilt trips wont win you many friends in your crusade . And I dont see Jesus refuseing me in front of God (&#31070. Even if I do reject Christianity in he future and become a Buddhist or something. I doubt God would reject me then.

No, I am not in denial about it...I have done much study in the original hebrew and greek in order to make sure I have a word right. Its what people do when they really wish to get a deeper understanding of the bible.

Then explain to me why there are differences in the Bibles that are out there in circulation right now. Go into the New American Bible and you will see differances if you compare it to a Protestant Bible.

Ok, good. You cant back it up because it is merely your opinion which is merely based upon your feelings/emotion. Pardon me for then in turn taking Christs opinion and words over your 'philosophy'.

I just have to laugh it this, but my opinions and philosophy is not based on feelings and emotions. Apperently to you anything that is outside the bible is considered feelings and emotions.

You may not like where that train is headed. You sure you want to miss this one?

Again your guilt trip is doing you no good .

No..I merely point out that there is no proof of it in the bible and that in fact Jesus says otherwise. Thats not attacking, thats taking a position and proving it.

Proving it in a biased way. Look, I dont care what Jesus says about "religious exclusiveness" I just dont buy into sending Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, Jews, Muslims, etc into hell just because they eather reject Jesus because of their own personal reasons or has never even heard of Jesus.

 

[Adamb0mb]

MobBoss:

What do you think about Matthew 12:32, that "whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven"?

Again, the forgiveness is not automatic....its still a sin of which you must repent and ask forgiveness for. If you ask, you will be forgiven...if not it will remain a mark against you.

Well, that is definitely one interpretation of those words.

Me, I think it does look like automatic forgiveness. There is no "... Son of Man will be forgiven after he reprents..."

 

[GenMarshall]

Well, that is definitely one interpretation of those words.

Me, I think it does look like automatic forgiveness. There is no "... Sone of Man will be forgiven after he reprents..."

And that is how I see it as .

 

[MobBoss]

Well, that is definitely one interpretation of those words.

Me, I think it does look like automatic forgiveness. There is no "... Son of Man will be forgiven after he reprents..."

If there is automatic forgiveness what is the point of sin? Or repentance for that matter. What you are doing is taking a single quote out of context without looking at the larger biblical picture. For instance:

Luke 13:2-4 (New King James Version)

2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

What does it mean to repent? You ask forgiveness for your sin and walk away from it and dont do it again. Sin and repentance and forgiveness are a core concept all throughout the bible. Research that and it will give you insight on what that scripture in Matthew really means....

 

[GenMarshall]

If there is automatic forgiveness what is the point of sin? Or repentance for that matter. What you are doing is taking a single quote out of context without looking at the larger biblical picture.

This is where the two personal sins come into play, Venial and Mortal Sins. Venial Sins are lesser sins that are not as serious as Mortal Sins.

What does it mean to repent? You ask forgiveness for your sin and walk away from it and dont do it again. Sin and repentance and forgiveness are a core concept all throughout the bible. Research that and it will give you insight on what that scripture in Matthew really means....

Funny since in Douay-Rheims, its says to do Penance...

And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

 

[Adamb0mb]

bible quote provided by Irish Caesar

whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven

If there is automatic forgiveness what is the point of sin? Or repentance for that matter.

What does it mean to repent? You ask forgiveness for your sin and walk away from it and dont do it again. Sin and repentance and forgiveness are a core concept all throughout the bible.

To me this sounds like a free speech clause freeing man to speak up and challenge ideas even about god. You can still use sin and repentance to describe immoral actions like stealing and murder.

 

[MobBoss]

Funny since in Douay-Rheims, its says to do Penance...

Read your wiki. Pennancea and repentance are pretty much the same thing - it is an asking for forgiveness...and yes, confession of your sins, actually admitting to them is also part of repentance.

I read it and I dont see it that way.

So, when Ezekiel called down the fire of God to consume the idol worhippers he was merely being tolerant?

I highly doubt you read up on idols and idol worshippers at all. If you had you wouldnt see it that way....that is if you were honest.

If I was not a Christian, would you still demand biblical scriptures for my philosophical stance of universal salvation?

Nope. Most likely we wouldnt be having this discussion.

I dont care if there is no scriptures to back me up

Exactly. However, as a Christian brother, I humbly suggest that you should care to find scripture to back up your statements. Just a suggestion mind you.

Then explain to me why there are differences in the Bibles that are out there in circulation right now. Go into the New American Bible and you will see differances if you compare it to a Protestant Bible.

The differences are minimal. The message is still the same. If you are truly that worried about it, go with a standard like I do with the New King James version AND when doing research, refer to the original hebrew and greek text and translate it yourself using a concordance.

Look, I dont care what Jesus says

Too bad..but I think that about sums it all up and pretty much proves my entire point. Case closed.

 

[MobBoss]

To me this sounds like a free speech clause freeing man to speak up and challenge ideas even about god. You can still use sin and repentance to describe immoral actions like stealing and murder.

Again, unless you take the concept in total, it does you no good to simply read one scripture and call it truth. Thats not how it works.

Oh...and do a bit of research on people who did speak against God or challenge him. More often than not they dropped dead right on the spot (or were stoned to death, etc. etc.).

 

[Adamb0mb]

Again, unless you take the concept in total, it does you no good to simply read one scripture and call it truth. Thats not how it works.

I see fragments of scripture used all the time to show the bible's stance on one issue or another. The fact that every sentence in the bible is indexed by chapter and verse leads me to believe that this is how it works.

But then again, I guess thats a matter of interpretation.

Oh...and do a bit of research on people who did speak against God or challenge him. More often than not they dropped dead right on the spot (or were stoned to death, etc. etc.).

Are you offering evidence that people who spoke against God have been smitten? I would love to see this.