What's a Born Again Christian?

[GenMarshall]

Heh!

You think millions of people are doomed...All without a shred of proof.
Save for some random letters, gospels and speculations in old scriptures...

Question:
Did it ever occur to you that someone might have written the user manual
in such a way that encouraged you to just dislike all the other religions?

????

There is no use arguing with a diehard fundy like MobBoss. He can pull scriptures out of his ear faster than a jack rabbit on a hot date ! I my self am a Catholic Chrisian and yet I do accept other religions and do know that the Bible may have gone through errors in translation from Hebrew to Greek to Latin which are based on the user's interpretation of the word. I should know since I have gone through the same thing in learning Japanese. I have to find the closest related verb or noun that fits in the context that I am using, and I would bet the Hebrew - Greek and Greek - Latin translators had to do the samething that I do (Dont worry, I am not translating religious text from English to Japanese ).

There are some liberal and moderate Christians who accept other religions and there are some conservative fundamentalist Christians who believe non-Christians have a one way ticket to hell . Fortunately, I am within the moderate area.

 

[CurtSibling]

@CivGeneral:

Don't let me get in the way of you and MB's hilarious crusader battle.

Personally, the whole concept of religious zeal is something I find silly
and childlike these days. I have moved far from even arguing about it.

People choose their own way of living, and if they wish to bow down
to human institutions and human-invented religions...It is their problem.

Guilt/fear/ignorance...Our species is such a lame breed.

.

 

[Turner]

Just remember, Curt. Zealousness is not just a religious trait. I refer to all the Theist vs Athiest discussions here recently. Just as much zealousness on each side. (One might even say you're rather zealously athiest yourself. )

 

[CurtSibling]

Just remember, Curt. Zealousness is not just a religious trait. I refer to all the Theist vs Athiest discussions here recently. Just as much zealousness on each side. (One might even say you're rather zealously athiest yourself. )

You misread my posts, in your rush to chastise.

I never said religion was at fault. As it is pointless to attack history/culture...

Hence, I mentioned the human mind/state. Which I feel justified in attacking.

.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

Curt; some Christians, such as I, believe in the concept of evangelical universalism. Ie, no matter what you believe, you get into heaven.

I find the ideas of a loving God and an all powerful God to be at odds with one another, so I discard the idea of God being all powerful. If He was, suffering would not exist.

 

[Turner]

Curt - No, I did not misread your post.

 

[GenMarshall]

@CivGeneral:
Don't let me get in the way of you and MB's hilarious crusader battle.

What crusader battle? To be frank, I dont even agree with MobBoss's stances . I take it you have missed the memo that I have forsaken fundamentalist zealism

Personally, the whole concept of religious zeal is something I find silly and childlike these days. I have moved far from even arguing about it.

After gaining a bit of Humility in myself, I see religious zeal as unnecessary and immature. I've been through the ugly side of fundamentalist zeal and I can say, it was not pretty breaking the one commandment that I constantly ignored "Love thy neighbor as thy self".

People choose their own way of living, and if they wish to bow down to human institutions and human-invented religions...It is their problem.

And they do have a right to choose their own way of living and to practice and be in a religion so long as they are not hurting anyone. Live and let it be.

Just remember, Curt. Zealousness is not just a religious trait. I refer to all the Theist vs Athiest discussions here recently. Just as much zealousness on each side. (One might even say you're rather zealously athiest yourself. )

I concur, Zealousness does happen on both sides of the argument. And I bet Turner isn't the only one who has seen the Theist vs. Atheist zealousness.

 

[CurtSibling]

Curt - No, I did not misread your post.

Then your post made no sense, because you mention something I did not do.

I denounce the human zeal, not the culture or platform that he prescribes to.

It is how a person acts on his beliefs that draws my comments.

That is all.

.

 

[CurtSibling]

Curt; some Christians, such as I, believe in the concept of evangelical universalism. Ie, no matter what you believe, you get into heaven.

I find the ideas of a loving God and an all powerful God to be at odds with one another, so I discard the idea of God being all powerful. If He was, suffering would not exist.

Fine. You believe that.

I do not recognise any universal belief that does not offer any proof.

A whole legion of believers cannot make their intellectual fantasy into reality.

.

 

[GenMarshall]

Curt; some Christians, such as I, believe in the concept of evangelical universalism. Ie, no matter what you believe, you get into heaven.

Ahh, so thats what that term is. Thanks Pasi . Been wondering what that term was.

 

[CurtSibling]

I'd love to stay and chat, but I must go to work.

So I'll pick up this wonderful debate at 5pm UK time.

 

[Turner]

Then your post made no sense, because you mention something I did not do.

I denounce the human zeal, not the culture or platform that he prescribes to.

It is how a person acts on his beliefs that draws my comments.

That is all.

.

Just because you don't understand the point I'm making doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Well, okay, to you it doesn't.

I leave it to the student to figure out what I'm talking about.

 

[El_Machinae]

No, the seventy times seven is a reference to how often we should forgive those that continually transgress against us.

Oh, and Jesus most certainly does refer to it. Here are some prime examples:

Like I said, I don't mind when Christians forgive without repentance first, I think it's a better world if they do. I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone that my interpretation is correct, either.

Jesus also sets a pretty high bar, with regards to Christians forgiving others: you have to forgive everybody for everything

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you [deliver you to the tormentors: El'M], if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

But Jesus also promises to turn away many Christians who claim Him to be saviour, denying them Heaven.

Here's what I was talking about: despite your reference to forgiveness above, my claim is that (in the Bible days) there was no call to forgive until they had repented. One certainly had to forgive (like your verses indicate), but not until it was sought.

3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

[El'M note: sorry about referring to the 7 x 70, I was mistaken and in a hurry. But I knew there was a 'seven' reference ]

Keep in mind that it's the same way the Christian god operates. He only forgives those who ask for forgiveness. I personally consider it to be more moral to forgive without repentance. It seems you do too. (on a side note, merely for curiousity sake, check out the concordance for the word 'forgive' that we're talking about (aphiemi: 863). It doesn't really seem to mean what I think of when I say 'forgive')

Mauer: you never answered my question. Do you feel an onus to seek forgiveness from the people that you hurt, or can you merely repent to God?

 

[warpus]

Which is why I have a hard time with the "all loving" god. If god was so 'all loving', certainly he wouldn't a majority of the people on the planet through eternal suffering.

Or anyone!

Well, I guess thats why spreading the gospel is so important now eh? Anyway, they are not sent as a matter of where they are born, but as a matter of their choices in life. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you were born in India you would be singing a different song. It'd be Hindi and I can assure you it wouldn't be about Jesus

 

[Solver]

MobBoss,

So you believe that everyone who doesn't accept Jesus goes to hell. Including, say, Hindus. That's against my beliefs and against my moral compass, but I understand the basis for your belief here. The idea is that these people go to hell because they choose not to accept Jesus.

But what about a person who dies having never heard of Jesus, the Bible and everything? Say, someone born in one of the very poor, non-Christian regions of Africa. The person will probably struggle to survive, remain largely illiterate and receive very little education outside of things needed for survival and maybe some local (very local) traditions. Such communities still exist. Then this person would die at the age of 20 or so because of sickness, starvation or some other reason. He hasn't accepted Jesus, hasn't read the Bible. But he's never even heard of the Bible and Jesus.

Does he go to hell? If so, for what, if he never made a choice not to accept Jesus? Or do you believe that God would speak to such a person and offer him a choice nonetheless?

 

[rysingsun]

But what about a person who dies having never heard of Jesus, the Bible and everything? Say, someone born in one of the very poor, non-Christian regions...

Does he go to hell? If so, for what, if he never made a choice...

God knows the heart of a man. If God sees that a man would listen to him it is no difficult thing for him to send a messenger to preach to him the good news of Jesus. There are at least a few bibilical passages about God sending prophets or evangelists to those whom he knows "will believe".

@MobBoss - you're doing well ... keep up the good work.

The question came up about the point of preaching the bible to those who claim they don't agree with the bible. what is the point of that? well it's like swinging a sword at someone who doesn't believe the sword is sharp. it pierces regardless.

 

[El_Machinae]

Ah, but what if the swinger thinks it's a sword, and everyone else realises it's a wifflebat? (kidding, kidding ...)

How about you? Any onus to repent to those you transgress against, or do you need to only repent to God?

 

[MobBoss]

However were both in different denominations, Not sure if your teachings would carry over into Roman Catholicism. Its like you giving me a program that is designed for a Mac and I am running on Windows.

Havent you seen the commercials lately? Macs can run windows too. Ditto for this arguement...both Catholics and Protestants can read the bible....imagine that.

I cannot accept the fact that God would hold someone ac****able just because of their own freewill.

Why not? It is an extremely basic thing in the bible. We get free will, but are held accountable for our choices in life.

If God is a jealous God and is not religiously tolerant, why doesnt he control the human population to worship him only? I feel God did not gave us Freewill just for kicks.

He doesnt control the human population to worship him only because that would be false love. Come on CG, this is baby step christian stuff. I know you havent been a christian that long, but free will being tied to responsibility is one of the first concepts there is in the bible.

So in your world view wrapped around a holy book. You are sesentialy saying that people in Asia and the Pacific Rim WHO HAS NEVER HEARD about Jesus are going to hell?! How could a benevonent God just cast them into the eternal pit of fire just because they were born in a different contenent.

Because of their hearts. Those that desire to be in his presence will seek him, even in the wilderness. And if I am truly a christian, whats so wrong with my life being wrapped around the bible? You say that like it is a bad thing?

Oh thats a nice way to tell former Christians who become atheists or converted to another religion . So heaven is now an exclusive club only reserved to Christians where atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Jewish, Zoroastrians, Muslims, Shintoists, Hindus, and other non-Christians automaticly get a one way ticked into hell?

It always has been. I thought you said you read the bible. Read Matthew. Specifically. You will get your answer in there.

I am sorry but I dont agree to that statement nor do I accept that world view.

Then you disagree with Christs own opinion on the issue.

Then why is there referances, such as your self stated, full of fear tactics that "if you are in a wrong religion" or "you rejected Christ" that you get a one way ticket to hell. Heh, nice way of gaining converts. No wonder many people were upset with me when I preached about hell.

They probably got upset with you because you didnt do it tactfully. You cant ram it down peoples throats, but you can show them the truth via your deeds and daily life. And again, Christ is very clear on the matter....if you reject him, his father will reject you. And you will be persecuted for following Christ. Christ himself said people will be upset with you, just like you are upset with me. /shrug.

So to you and by your logic ignorance is strength? I see it in my view that having one's head crammed in the Bible makes you blind to the world and stuck inside the box.

No, CG, having your head in the bible merely makes you an informed christian who knows their faith. For a Christian, that is a good thing, not a bad thing. I am not blind to the world at all, but I see it the way Jesus sees it.

Now youre creaping me out. I personaly would not want to jump off a bridge just because Jesus said so. I want to be in a religion that respects and honors human life, not a suicide cult.

Who says Jesus would let you die? What if he wanted you to jump off that bridge to save someone else from drowning. He wouldnt tell you to jump off the bridge to merely let you plummet to your death....thats not his style. When Jesus and the diciples were on that boat and the storms came the diciples got scared. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 8:23

23 Now when He got into a boat, His disciples followed Him. 24 And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves. But He was asleep. 25 Then His disciples came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”
26 But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. 27 So the men marveled, saying, “Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”

My wife and kids went all the way to Waveland, Mississippi to help hurricane katrina survivors because they felt Jesus told them to go help people. Should they not have done it?

So ask yourself CG...why are you so fearful, O you of little faith?

 

[MobBoss]

Curt; some Christians, such as I, believe in the concept of evangelical universalism. Ie, no matter what you believe, you get into heaven.

Well, thats all fine and good. Now can you back it up via scripture from the bible?

Or are you merely holding an intergalatic kegger and making up the rules as you go?

I find the ideas of a loving God and an all powerful God to be at odds with one another, so I discard the idea of God being all powerful. If He was, suffering would not exist.

False assumption.

 

[El_Machinae]

My wife and kids went all the way to Waveland, Mississippi to help hurricane katrina survivors because they felt Jesus told them to go help people. Should they not have done it?

So ask yourself CG...why are you so fearful, O you of little faith?

Unless you can command a sycamore tree to jump, due to your faith, or move mountains, or make the lame walk and the blind see ... I don't think it's very tactful to comment on other people's lack of faith. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just rude.

It's like being in the special olympics and commenting that someone else is ********, and that they shouldn't be.