What's Real?

CavLancer

This aint fertilizer
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Physics has gone in a rather amusing direction. Turns out, we are living in a simulation. What fun. What's real?


Question: Considering that according to science we live in a simulation, who is the programmer, the... creator? Has science discovered God?

Within the simulation, turns out the moon is not what humanity thought. Its not a big rock in space. It didn't come from a collision between two planets, and huh, its hollow. What we thought was an obvious reality, that the moon is just a lucky roll of the dice, might be in fact the intention of someone somewhere. The moon was put there. Its got lots of wide open spaces inside. Who woulda thunk it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Moon

Question: What is the moon?

Good thing the Earth is real, and exactly what we expect, right? So what's in the Antarctic? Why are so many notaries going there? What is that huge structure? Is the Earth hollow too?


Question: Why are all these big wheels rolling down to Antarctica? What's down there?

Curious stuff.
 
The tone of your OP seems to suggest this stuff has been definitively proven. This is not the case and is still, at best, fringe research and total crackpot stuff at worst. Even the link you provide on the "hollow moon" thing states in the second sentence that there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support the hypothesis.
 
From your link on hollow moon:

No scientific evidence exists to support the idea; seismic observations and other data collected since spacecraft began to orbit or land on the Moon indicate that it has a thin crust, extensive mantle and small, dense core, although overall it is much less dense than Earth.

And yet you have already convinced yourself this is the truth despite not having any evidence to back it up whatsoever. You don't see a problem with that at all?

EDIT: Not to mention, Stanford did a review of Bostrom's simulation theory and didn't have many kind things to say about it. There are also some pretty significant arguments against his theory.

Here's a basic summary of the arguments against the simulated reality theory:

Evidence against
[edit] Falsifiability
While the simulation argument is a skeptical view of reality, and proposes an interesting question regarding nature and technology, there are several problems if it is proposed as a serious hypothesis. Firstly, the simulation argument is completely unfalsifiable as it is impossible to devise an experiment to test the hypothesis and potentially prove it to be false. Even if a hypothetical experiment was devised and turned out negative (that the world was not simulated) it would still be insufficient because there is the potential that this is merely what the simulation wants us to think, or we are living inside a simulation inside a simulation. This, according to widely accepted definitions, places it firmly in the field of pseudoscience. Any serious suggestion that we do live in a simulation (as opposed to discussion of the probabilities, assumptions and the potential technologies involved, which is academically sound) relies purely on faith and argument by assertion. This makes the simulation argument, as an explanation of reality, more like a religion - regardless of the assertions of transhumanists that the maths works out.[3]

[edit] Occam's razor
Occam's razor can also be used to guide us in working out whether to accept the simulation argument as a real explanation of reality. This suggests that, all other things being equal, the hypothesis with fewest assumptions is most likely correct. Given that the simulation argument rests on numerous assumptions regarding the means and motives of the simulators and the technology that powers them, Occam's razor would suggest that simulation is the far more complex hypothesis compared to non-simulation.

Although a simulated reality is unfalsifiable, an answer can be readily obtained by using Occam's razor, since any explanation of the world around us that involves evil alien overlords having wiped our memories and coercing us into participating in a gigantic MMORPG for some unknown nefarious purpose is a good deal more complex than just trusting our own senses. The idea is also recursive, as even if you became aware of being simulated, you couldn't tell - in a sufficiently advanced simulation - if this outside world was also simulated, and that the alien overlords or future humans were also being studied within a simulation and so on.

[edit] Feasibility


Three bodies moving chaotically under gravity, as a solution to their motion cannot be solved analytically. The question is; how does this little problem of physics affect a hypothetical simulation of the universe?
One of the most well-known problems in mathematics and physics is the "three-body problem" or the "n-body problem", which states that it is impossible to create an closed-form analytical solution to a system with more than two parts interacting with each other. Solving for one body is trivial, solving for two is possible because you effectively "freeze" one of the bodies, thus reducing it to a one-body problem, but for three or more - except in very trivial cases where certain mathematical approximations are perfectly applicable to a real system - is not possible. Such systems display chaotic behaviour. This, on its own, doesn't necessarily preclude simulation as determining forces in a many-body system and then advancing it by one "frame" is possible, and so only precludes the existence of a deterministic equation to solve anything. However, it does often make simulation and generation of a suitable set of equations (presumably, by any meaningful definition of "simulated reality", the simulation functions on such solvable mathematics) to describe a system.

When attempting to make mathematical models of reality, certain assumptions and approximations are made in order to describe systems. If the universe was being described by an analytical process anyway, such things would be unlikely to be needed, and so basic two-body approximations should be perfectly analogous to experimental behaviour. However, such things are rarely seen. In the field of quantum computation (computer models of quantum systems such as atoms and molecules) introduction of such approximations to make even the simplest models disagree with reality considerably. In order to compensate for any approximations made in order to make the systems computable, computational cost must increase significantly - in computational chemistry, the cost of a simulation scales by at least the fourth power of the number of bodies and functions being considered. To make a "perfect" simulation, an infinite number of functions needs to be considered. To accurately model the interaction of just two water molecules (perhaps the simplest chemically interesting system) requires over 500 functions to bring the result within experimental error. This sort of issue extends from chemistry and into physics, where the interactions modelled by Feynman diagrams can produce an indefinite number of particle interactions, each contributing to the observed properties of a particle. Many hundreds, if not thousands, of just the smallest of these possible diagrams are required to make reasonably accurate predictions of the energies of sub-atomic particles. To make an "accurate" picture of the particle system requires an infinite number - each and every possible Feynman diagram up to an infinite size. These are very small and isolated systems, an entire universe raises the complexity beyond what can be readily imagined.

Basic mechanics, therefore, makes a simulation of the universe a considerably bigger task than most proponents of a simulated reality seem to grasp. A simulation would have to be "perfect", as otherwise we would begin to observe flaws in real-world mechanics. Yet the number of interactions required to make such a "perfect" simulation are vast, and in some cases require an infinite number of functions operating on each other to describe. Perhaps the only way to solve this would be to assume "simulation" is an analogy for how the universe (operating under the laws of quantum mechanics) acts like a quantum computer - and therefore it can "calculate" itself. But then, that doesn't really say the same thing as "we exist in someone else's simulation".

[edit] The interference question
Simulations within the bounds of our universe frequently exhibit certain qualities. All of these are bound up in the term's inherit indication of purpose.

  • Purposeful recreation of some aspect of the extant universe to understand the driving principles of that component. It is hard to imagine the purpose of simulating so large a universe, when pieces have tiny impact on others. The behaviors under scrutiny would need to be beyond comprehension to justify such a large dataset.
  • Interference with the simulation. While not universally true, many computerized simulations performed by humans allow for alterations to the simulation to see their effects. The observable history of the universe shows no sudden or impossible changes.
[edit] Problems with the specific assumptions
The 7 points of the argument above can conceivably be false, the following covers the reasoning as to why they may not be true.

  1. The ability to simulate: Conceivably computers could simulate human personalities, which is the basis for all research in artificial intelligence. The existence of a non-natural soul would destroy this assumption, but generally this is likely to be a very true point. This property only needs to apply in principle because the simulators do not necessarily have to be our future selves, so if the human race doesn't, in fact, develop artificial intelligence this can't discount the simulation hypothesis.
  2. How to simulate: Even if a computer of silicon chips couldn't simulate a mind, a computer made of neurons identical to a brain could - and a computer of silicon chips simulating something identical to a brain certainly could. Emergent phenomena imply that consciousness can be independent of the medium it is made out of and is instead dependent on the patterns that medium creates; without begging dualism, the difference in output between a human brain and a perfectly identical computerised copy is zero.
  3. Simulation of people and environment: Arguments against the assumptions begin here. By handwaving the hardware and energy requirements to achieve such a thing, you could make billions of personalities if you can simulate one successfully. However, this is making a vast assumption; would people even want to? Proponents of the simulation argument may suggest that saying "no" to this is making assumptions about a race of beings so powerful that we couldn't possibly second-guess them. But this works in both directions; how could we second-guess an unknowable race of transhuman beings to conclude that they would simulate people.
  4. Computational power: Given Moore's Law, and past increases in computing power, it's sort of a no brainer that much more powerful computers could exist in the future. It doesn't automatically follow they will be powerful enough and energy efficient enough to simulate the billions of sentient beings and the supporting universe required to form a simulation. See computing complexity below.
  5. Multiple simulations: Similar to the above, it is a non sequitur to assume that because something is possible that it will be done repeatedly. Humans do, of course, have a propensity to do things "just because", but there could be practical considerations as well as the question "why bother?". See motives below.
  6. More simulated entities than real entities: This is the point that the simulation argument rests on - that there are more simulated entities than real entities. Both motives and practicalities can conspire against this assumption. It can easily be impossible to simulate a universe and considered pointless to do so.
  7. Concluding that we are a simulation: Conceptually it's possible that we are a simulation. But given the active evidence and unfalsifiability of the proposal it's equally possible that aliens are responsible for human civilization, or possible that both aliens and humans exist in a simulation, and that simulated aliens are responsible for our simulated civilization.
[edit] Complexity
It is not possible for something to be simulated on something else that is less complex than itself. This is easily demonstrated with data storage alone. The number of atoms in a hard drive will be something along the order of 1024 or so, a vast number. To simulate this hard drive, one would have to record the positions of all the atoms. To define these positions in space requires three co-ordinates, XYZ, and these must be defined with sufficient resolution - at least 10-11 significant figures for something the size of a hard-drive. And each atom would have to have a label to distinguish it and that would have to be 24 significant figures to account for the sheer number of them. So at least 100 bits of information are required per atom and that's just for their locations. This totals up at 10.3 yottabytes, or 10.3 x1012 terabytes - so that's 1012 hard disks just to store the information used to make 1! Simulating an entire universe goes into even more ridiculous territory. Given this, it would be an easier task to simulate a brain by building an actual brain out of neurons than it would be to describe those neurons in a computer.

An upper bound to what can be computed inside the universe - given the age of the universe, the speed of light, and the ability to manipulate and move information at the smallest possible levels - has been computed to be around 10120 bits.[4] This has been described as the "computing power of the universe", or if it was a computer how much it would take to work it out and what it could work out inside it. Of course, it could still be calculated - given any amount of time - inside any Turing complete machine, the question is whether this universe is capable of simulating a similar universe inside it.

Due to the complexity, whatever is simulating this universe must be considerably larger and more complex than this one. So the flavours of the argument that suggest that it is future humans (i.e., from our universe) simulating us is likely to be very false indeed, as we would be completely unable to simulate our entire universe - even assuming compression, efficiency and extended time - within our universe itself. The only explanation to handwave this point is to state that this universe must be a very poor approximation of the "real" universe - akin to running dynamics calculations on a simple shape rather than a complex 3D object, or condensing large molecules into single atoms for computational chemistry calculations. There is no way to outright disprove the general idea, of course, but some of the assumptions can still be looked at.

[edit] Motives
The underlying points made in the simulated reality argument require making a lot of assumptions about the motives of the simulators. Namely assuming that because they could, they would simulate a reality. One can question what it is possible to achieve by simulating an entire reality and then simulating more realities to go with it. There are numerous day-to-day activities associated with the world around us that would be of little interest to researchers or potential explorers and it would seem pointless to simulate these entirely rather than just focusing on more interesting areas and diverting the resources to more productive areas. However, this would be making decisions and assumptions about whatever godlike-beings are simulating the universe - maybe to them, we're no more complex than an 8-bit computer game.
 
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Physicists have come up with the simulation hypothesis, that the act of observation determines our reality. Nick Bostrum is an example of a convinced scientist. There are many big names in physics pushing this stuff...

If the whole shooting match is a simulation, are you suggesting that the scientists who believe the moon is artificial are wrong? On what basis?
 
curious yes
a secrete Antarctic Nazi base found abandoned after its scientists poisoned themselves by eating polar bears.... "think about that for a second"
followed by a newspaper report stating it was found in the Artic.... ''think about that for a second''
I've been there and there is a lot of snow .... ''think about that for a second''

sorry Cav. it lost me when they said it was a giant eye.... ''think about that for a second''
 
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"The act of observation determines our reality" is not necessarily synonymous with "we live in a simulation." In fact that would generally be seen as a contradiction.
 
Leonard Susskind for example. Serious fellow. Mr String Theory...

 
There are many big names in physics pushing this stuff

No, there aren't. The only two scientists I can see that are really pushing the simulated reality hypothesis are Elon Musk and Bostrom.

are you suggesting that the scientists who believe the moon is artificial are wrong? On what basis?

On the basis that the peers of those scientists have not found any evidence to support such a hypothesis.
 
curious yes
a secrete Antarctic Nazi base found abandoned after its scientists poisoned themselves by eating polar bears.... "think about that for a second"
followed by a newspaper report stating it was found in the Artic.... ''think about that for a second''
I've been there and there is a lot of snow .... ''think about that for a second''

sorry Cav. it lost me when they said it was a giant eye.... ''think about that for a second''


Don't be sorry Hippy, you nailed my point. The simulation hypothesis is a done deal. If you watch the vid on the moon, something is a tad off, the moon is highly suspect. Then Antarctic...that looks like BS doesn't it? Yet if you follow the progression from the impossibility that the universe is basically proven to be BS, then there should be a fairly massive suspension of disbelief that is founded upon the prior certain knowledge regarding reality being real and its not, so what do you now choose to disbelieve? In there being a big honkin hole at the arse end of the planet and there's something mighty curious in there? The whole shooting match is bogus Hippy, lets not quibble over the little stuff like the moon or ET having a chilly vacation spot, mkay? :D

Comm, look up from your post. Leonard Susskind, not just another name. How about Neils Bohr? Hang on I'll get another video, a really juicy one. :)
 
Here ya go Comm, this walks you through. Its worth the hour or whatever.

 
Comm, look up from your post. Leonard Susskind, not just another name. How about Neils Bohr? Hang on I'll get another video, a really juicy one. :)

I absolutely, with no reservations whatsoever, guarantee that Neils Bohr has not supported any crackpot theory about hollow moons or us living in a "simulation." If he were to come out in support tomorrow I would not only reverse my own position on this bit of crazy but volunteer to come to your hometown and walk the streets with a sandwich board laying out your claims in detail.

Spoiler :
This seems a good time to mention that Neils Bohr has been dead for over half a century.
 
Nick Bostrum is a crackpot then?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Bostrom

So that's Bostrum. Who are you again? :)
it should be noted that he also is famous for his work on super intelligence in the coming century and the existential risk to humanity so if his opiion means anything their is a chance that we will create simulations but to then go on and say therefore we are in a simulation is not what he said he said it is therfore one of three possibilities if he is right
as he also says
He has suggested that technology policy aimed at reducing existential risk should seek to influence the order in which various technological capabilities are attained, proposing the principle of differential technological development. This principle states that we ought to (word deleted because apparently great minds don't always pass spell checking for profanities) ****** the development of dangerous technologies, particularly ones that raise the level of existential risk, and accelerate the development of beneficial technologies, particularly those that protect against the existential risks posed by nature or by other technologies

he himself has a bet each way with his theories as if we are in a simulation that future technology is already here and his work and warnings on its dangers are either already known or his work is a warning on our future and he dose not generally believe we are in a simulation where a warning about its development would be pointless
if he is so bright as to impress you would he be so dumb to waste time doing ground breaking work on stuff already known, that would make him a crackpot unless you don't exist but he dose and its all for his enjoyment and ego
 
I absolutely, with no reservations whatsoever, guarantee that Neils Bohr has not supported any crackpot theory about hollow moons or us living in a "simulation." If he were to come out in support tomorrow I would not only reverse my own position on this bit of crazy but volunteer to come to your hometown and walk the streets with a sandwich board laying out your claims in detail.

Spoiler :
This seems a good time to mention that Neils Bohr has been dead for over half a century.

He might not have known the moon was a space ship from Andromeda, but what he did contribute to "spooky action from a distance" -Einstein which contributes to the simulation bit is noted in the video above your post. Yeah, okay, lets do sandwiches someday, maybe have a beer or three.
 
Okay Hippy, screw Bostrum, and I'll raise you Susskind.
 
By the time you're done Hippy, you'll be booking a flight to Antarctica. ;)
 
He might not have known the moon was a space ship from Andromeda, but what he did contribute to "spooky action from a distance" -Einstein which contributes to the simulation bit is noted in the video above your post. Yeah, okay, lets do sandwiches someday, maybe have a beer or three.

Einstein also demonstrated relativity with thought experiments involving being on a train moving at the speed of light, but that doesn't mean we should be listening for the whistle. While "spooky action from a distance" sounds far more intriguing than quantum entanglement it still doesn't equate to (or really even directly relate to) "we live in a simulation." That's a misrepresentation of an entirely different aspect of physics.

You should read Evan Walker. He won't support the "it's just a simulation" for you, but he does explore the real edge of physics in a way that it can be followed...and the launchpad into this silliness is pretty easy to see from there.
 
Evan Walker, thanks Tims.

Now the logical progression in the Simulation Hypothesis video was pretty clean. It arrived at a place Susskind is avoiding with everything he's got. Yet what he says points there. There are a dozen physicists in that video, from Nasa...top colleges, they all arrive at that same place, that this is a simulation. So, what does Walker say that says its not a simulation? Is there a paper online which refutes what all these folks are saying? Or even better yet, a youtube vid? ;)
 
By the time you're done Hippy, you'll be booking a flight to Antarctica. ;)
way to old now, applied 3 times in the 80's, got accepted once and did 18 months straight, like I've said before there's snow and its cold and dark
plus we have a penguin colony 200 metres from where I have my short black espresso on Sunday mornings
and from the sounds of it from your video too many tourist there ....
 
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