whats the oldest existing nation?

[Traitorfish]

Not really. Study of the The Peloponesian wars and any other period of the history of ancient Greece only concludes any claims regarding united national identity. In Thucydides's dialogs Both sides use it as politics that Greeks that allied against Persians shouldn't attack other Greeks. In their speeches they make distinctions between other Greek cities and barbarians cities. But each different city was a city state on it's own. So the Civil war proves that a united national identity was not a big reason enough to not allow city states to attack other Greek city states . And it couldn't as other Greek city states where the best competition for other Greeks that they should eliminate if they wanted their city to become greater than the rest.

True, but my point was that, while the idea of a single Hellenic nation emerged in classical Greece, they were still a great distance from the idea of a single Hellenic nation-state. While they acknowledged their shared culture, language, religion and heritage, as I mentioned, they still saw the different cities as a independent states, or, at least, the major cities such as Sparta and Athens, with smaller cities functioning as client-states. It took Alexander and his Panhellenic ideals- the result, it must be remembered, of a partially external view of Hellenic cultural, rather than a truly internal one, and so does not necessarily reflect the views of the Greeks themselves- to create anything resembling a united Greece.
(And, even then, the divisions between Alexander's successors and the Hellenic city-states within Greece were never really repaired until the Roman conquest, which, of course, does not truly constitute a Greek nation. The Greek nation-state emerged at some point during the Eastern Roman Empire, as the Greek language became dominant over Latin, and, even then, was more accurately Greco-Roman.)

Of course, I'm not entirely sure why I'm arguing against my own point, but I like to be even handed...

 

[flyingchicken]

Indeed, the Greek nation-state began when the Romans gave them the organization and power to do so. In fact, the idea of a Constantinople-centered Greek nation-state was a strong driving force in Greek politics since its independence from the Ottoman Empire until recently.

 

[scy12]

True, but my point was that, while the idea of a single Hellenic nation emerged in classical Greece, they were still a great distance from the idea of a single Hellenic nation-state. While they acknowledged their shared culture, language, religion and heritage, as I mentioned, they still saw the different cities as a independent states, or, at least, the major cities such as Sparta and Athens, with smaller cities functioning as client-states. It took Alexander and his Panhellenic ideals- the result, it must be remembered, of a partially external view of Hellenic cultural, rather than a truly internal one, and so does not necessarily reflect the views of the Greeks themselves- to create anything resembling a united Greece.
(And, even then, the divisions between Alexander's successors and the Hellenic city-states within Greece were never really repaired until the Roman conquest, which, of course, does not truly constitute a Greek nation. The Greek nation-state emerged at some point during the Eastern Roman Empire, as the Greek language became dominant over Latin, and, even then, was more accurately Greco-Roman.)

Of course, I'm not entirely sure why I'm arguing against my own point, but I like to be even handed...

You are correct. But we must knowledge that some orators of the Greek world did speak of a panhellenic Greek state. Suffice to say they weren't many. It was less than lack of belief of Panhellenism rather than their political systems that didn't allow it to happen. Alexander's conquest only divided more the Greek world but divided it by creating a situation where they cut the pieces of a much bigger pie. Only one empire like Rome was strong enough to unite them and change the political system of governance .

Indeed, the Greek nation-state began when the Romans gave them the organization and power to do so. In fact, the idea of a Constantinople-centered Greek nation-state was a strong driving force in Greek politics since its independence from the Ottoman Empire until recently.

Indeed. It should be noted that Greek Orators and Politicians that encouraged the independence movement at the 19th century referred to the Greeks not only as Helennes but also usually as Romaioi (Hellenized Romans). Which came to mean Greek , Christian Orthodox. At some provinces even in the 20th century some people where more alleged with the word Romaios rather than Hellene. While that was not a widespread phenomenon it does show the connection between the Eastern Roman Empire and modern Hellenism. And that may be one of Religions good byproducts. Due to the Ottoman empire giving their conquered some religius autonomy and governing by religious discrimination is allowed Religion which was very developed in the Eastern Roman Empire to play a role at safegurding the Greek populations of the region.

A modern point at all Greek history is 1922 and later the unstoptable 1955 which for the first time in history since the founding of the first Greek colonies in Little Assia , "Turkey" there was no Greek presence in that area. 20th century Politicians let there big mark at history and they will be forever remembered.

 

[Traitorfish]

You are correct. But we must knowledge that some orators of the Greek world did speak of a panhellenic Greek state. Suffice to say they weren't many. It was less than lack of belief of Panhellenism rather than their political systems that didn't allow it to happen. Alexander's conquest only divided more the Greek world but divided it by creating a situation where they cut the pieces of a much bigger pie. Only one empire like Rome was strong enough to unite them and change the political system of governance .

True. You might say that Classical Greece suffered from an extreme obsession with "states rights" (not a particularly accurate term, but you get my drift), which, despite a recognised national identity, stopped the nation ever becoming a unified nation-state.