Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
Nope, but I forgot it 
I really should go to bed now...
I really should go to bed now...
What's the rationale for adding a Palace building with a national limit of 3?
- Thread starter lockstep
- Start date
Ahriman
Tyrant
Easily. Revert to BNW. Early culture in BNW isn't broken.
1 culture from the palace isn't going to effect where you build the hermitage.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Any progress on getting rid of the extra palace building? I haven't seen that in the latest versions.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I completed this several weeks ago, but may have forgotten to put a line in the patch notes.
I haven't had time to update the yield library to fit BNW. It's a complex task, and the other things going on in my life recently made it difficult to concentrate on programming.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
(double post)
DivineWind
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2011
- Messages
- 10
Something for u guys to think about
..
In my own personal mod I have a lot of fun planning and building Science cities, Trading/Gold cities, Holy Cities, Cultural Cities, GP Cities, Military/Production cities, etc .... because of two lines of code .
<Where Name="MAX_NATIONAL_WONDERS_PER_CITY" />
<Set Value="3" />
In my own personal mod I have a lot of fun planning and building Science cities, Trading/Gold cities, Holy Cities, Cultural Cities, GP Cities, Military/Production cities, etc .... because of two lines of code .
<Where Name="MAX_NATIONAL_WONDERS_PER_CITY" />
<Set Value="3" />
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I think that's a decent idea. I do want to de-emphasize the capital city.
Couple questions with that approach:
How does it work with Venice?
That requires at least 4 cities to build all national wonders. From the sound of some tall-playstyle debates, even 4 cities might be too many cities. Could it scale for map size?
How does it work with Venice?
That requires at least 4 cities to build all national wonders. From the sound of some tall-playstyle debates, even 4 cities might be too many cities. Could it scale for map size?
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'd be very leery of any hardcode blocks that mess up a single city Venice or any OCC attempt. I'm not convinced that there is a problem at all; different national wonders support different things, so with any kind of city specialization you should be wanting them in different cities anyway; production in your military city, east india in your trade/gold city, national college in a science city, etc.
And even if you do choose to put them all in one city, so what?
The solution here in terms of limiting player options seems worse than any actual problem.
And even if you do choose to put them all in one city, so what?
The solution here in terms of limiting player options seems worse than any actual problem.
Agree with Ahriman here.
The solution isn't to limit the number of national wonders per city. I've played with Venice before and kicked butt too. I didn't even use a Merchant of Venice to get a 2nd city. One city owned the whole world. I bought up every city state on the map with all that gold. Led everyone in science and needed those national wonders badly.
The solution is to make the game less capital-centric. The capital shouldn't be getting bonuses that other cities don't get. Another source of the problem is the placement of the starting locations. The starting location always is next to multiple luxury resources in a really good spot, so that encourages you to make the capital a gold city. But changing this would lead to a lot of random luck on placement position, which wouldn't be good either.
I do think it would be good to get rid of the building bonuses (Capital and 3 Palaces) to make all cities equal. That would encourage spreading around the national wonders but also allow you to go really Tall if you wanted to.
The solution isn't to limit the number of national wonders per city. I've played with Venice before and kicked butt too. I didn't even use a Merchant of Venice to get a 2nd city. One city owned the whole world. I bought up every city state on the map with all that gold. Led everyone in science and needed those national wonders badly.
The solution is to make the game less capital-centric. The capital shouldn't be getting bonuses that other cities don't get. Another source of the problem is the placement of the starting locations. The starting location always is next to multiple luxury resources in a really good spot, so that encourages you to make the capital a gold city. But changing this would lead to a lot of random luck on placement position, which wouldn't be good either.
I do think it would be good to get rid of the building bonuses (Capital and 3 Palaces) to make all cities equal. That would encourage spreading around the national wonders but also allow you to go really Tall if you wanted to.
Myrion's solution sounds better if there's a way to spread out national wonder effects to make spreading them out more beneficial (local happiness via a policy is one way, since that caps out at a certain point).
But I'd have to agree this is a solution in search of a problem. If the national yields work, there's no problem. Even if they don't, it can still be effective to have some spread of gold/production/science for maxing out specialist yields and GP production (national wonders would presumably all have spec slots) and taking advantage of possibly high population growth in other cities. This also applies with the guild buildings, where it can be useful to specialise cities.
But I'd have to agree this is a solution in search of a problem. If the national yields work, there's no problem. Even if they don't, it can still be effective to have some spread of gold/production/science for maxing out specialist yields and GP production (national wonders would presumably all have spec slots) and taking advantage of possibly high population growth in other cities. This also applies with the guild buildings, where it can be useful to specialise cities.
If you want to deemphasise the capital there are some other ways to do it. We can nerf the palace to unimportance and spice up the early game some other way. We can decrease costs of early techs/policies/units or let the player start with their choice of technology and some combination of units. I prefer the second option since the early turns are move 1 unit/skip turn any way. It has been done before in civ and other games and it is a better way to make the early game more exciting than making your first city stronger. The technologies are obviously the first 4. The unit packs could be: scout monument or worker or warrior warrior or whatever is balanced. Codingwise a free tech is easy, just add it to the palace. The choice of free units I do not know how to do, but it is done for the AI and in advanced start mod. It should be possible, right?
Some numbers:
The players start with a settler and a warrior
Upon founding their first city:
The players get one out of pottery/mining/archery/animal husbandry
The players get 50 gold
The players get one out of monument/warrior/archer (if archery)/scout
The palace gives 1 culture 1 science
All cities have 2 hammers/2 food/1 gold (no hammer bonus bonus for hills)
To balance the head start early science is decreased, preferably by nerfing the national college or moving it later in the tech tree. Otherwise by increasing tech costs.
The players start with a settler and a warrior
Upon founding their first city:
The players get one out of pottery/mining/archery/animal husbandry
The players get 50 gold
The players get one out of monument/warrior/archer (if archery)/scout
The palace gives 1 culture 1 science
All cities have 2 hammers/2 food/1 gold (no hammer bonus bonus for hills)
To balance the head start early science is decreased, preferably by nerfing the national college or moving it later in the tech tree. Otherwise by increasing tech costs.
ExpiredReign
Deity
I quite like the idea of a choice of the first tech.
I have been toying with a similar idea for some time now about having more than 1 tier 0 techs, and based on the civilization you are, you get 1 or 2 of those tier 0 techs.
Obviously it, my idea and chumchu's, would need a bit of tweaking to the layout of techs and their prereqs. Otherwise we will just always choose the most difficult tech as free and work for the others. Much like you do when given a free tech now, more often than not, we take the one that needs the most beakers to attain.
I have been toying with a similar idea for some time now about having more than 1 tier 0 techs, and based on the civilization you are, you get 1 or 2 of those tier 0 techs.
Obviously it, my idea and chumchu's, would need a bit of tweaking to the layout of techs and their prereqs. Otherwise we will just always choose the most difficult tech as free and work for the others. Much like you do when given a free tech now, more often than not, we take the one that needs the most beakers to attain.
lockstep
Prince
CEG 3.16 (released April 2014) still adds extra yields to the first three cities. Is there any time frame for switching to National Yields?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I believe Stackpointer is working on that.
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