When are CSes worth it?

[Question]

I noticed that at early game, their rewards are so low that it would be a lot better to just conquer them instead of throwing 1000 gold their way for the ally bonus.

For example, i think in the classical era on quick speed, a cultured city state gives something like 6 culture? And yet monument + amphithearter is 5 culture by itself, and the city generates a lot more than just culture.

Mercantile CS is obviously worth it, because you get a lot more happiness than you could get with your own cities, but militaristic/cultured and to a lesser extent, religious, isn't very worthwhile to me. It's all fine if you get free influence from killing barbarians or whatever, but it just doesn't make sense to actively throw money at them.

 

[smallfish]

+ When you want that sweet sweet culture to keep filling out your SPs for cultural or science vics (or just finish a tree in general)

++ When you want extra happiness to keep growing (doesn't have to be mercantile, can even be militaristic if they have the right lux)

+++ When you want to tear a new flank or three on your opposition

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

what smallfish says
Yes, CS ALONE only gives 6 culture poitns per turn, whilst your Monument and Amphitheatre gives 5. BUT, together they give about 11 culture points per turn. So you decide what sounds better.

 

[Question]

Well in my last game i had a choice between conquering a CS or throwing gold at him for the +6 culture bonus. Needless to say, i took the former.

 

[Terakahn]

I don't think I've ever conquered a City State. They're too useful.

Though I should mention I usually only go after Militaristic and Maritime. Unless its a culture game obviously. Or I'm Greece, in which case why not take them all ; )

 

[Question]

I don't even understand the point of militaristic states unless they give you a unique unit. You usually get level 1 units when you could be producing level 3 with the heroic epic promotion.

 

[smallfish]

I don't even understand the point of militaristic states unless they give you a unique unit. You usually get level 1 units when you could be producing level 3 with the heroic epic promotion.

For when your cities are busy with producing other stuff than units (like wonderspam). Plus, having extra units, even as un-graded meatshields, still help boost your military demographics and will make local runaway think twice about invading you.

 

[Scarpa]

CS bonuses aren't intended to be better than what you can do yourself, they are for filling in the gaps in your current infrastructure. Sure a monument+ amphitheatre give +5 but what if you're prepping for domination and are pushing the bottom of the tree? Militaristic is the reverse scenario, you're pushing culture and prioritizing buildings, so a free unit every once in awhile is very nice (and the new UU mechanic is just awesome).

Beyond that it's worth having allies simply for strategic reasons. I always try to have one as a buffer between the AI neighbor most likely to DOW and me. You get the benefit of sight to keep an eye on things and a set of units ready to fight for you when the DOW comes.

In almost all cases I'd rather have an ally than a gutted city from conquering the CS.

 

[bc1]

City states each have an army... Strategically placed allied city states can be crucial on higher levels.

 

[smallfish]

Well in my last game i had a choice between conquering a CS or throwing gold at him for the +6 culture bonus. Needless to say, i took the former.

I was sharing a continent with Runaway Polynesia. He and I were even on techs, but he had the larger armed forces. He also had two CSes directly placed atop my second city.

I DOWed one in preparation of war with him, then the very next turn he DOWed me.

Exciting stuff.

(Gatling/Machine guns are awesome. Why did they get nerfed and how is this going to help AI?)

 

[Darkfeather]

If you are a very gold-centric civ, citystates can be valuable to create free allies.

 

[slapshot2119]

City states each have an army... Strategically placed allied city states can be crucial on higher levels.

This is SO true. While I wouldn't suggest a map-dependent strategy, the following scenario has occurred TWICE for me so far...

Going for a cultural victory. have a nice little 3-city sized peninsula(and in the second game 5-city) and two city states on opposite coasts block me off from the rest of the continent. Every time someone declares war on me, they send their units through the city states' territories. For every ten units they sent at me, maybe 2 or 3 make it through the city states territories, and those units are in the yellow or red.

 

[Question]

This is SO true. While I wouldn't suggest a map-dependent strategy, the following scenario has occurred TWICE for me so far...

Going for a cultural victory. have a nice little 3-city sized peninsula(and in the second game 5-city) and two city states on opposite coasts block me off from the rest of the continent. Every time someone declares war on me, they send their units through the city states' territories. For every ten units they sent at me, maybe 2 or 3 make it through the city states territories, and those units are in the yellow or red.

If you had conquered those city states, couldnt you form your own defence lines just with melee shields and some ranged units? After all, that's going to be more effective than what the CS are doing. Unless the AI is bugged and doesnt attempt to attack the CS at all.

 

[Avatan]

If you had conquered those city states, couldnt you form your own defence lines just with melee shields and some ranged units? After all, that's going to be more effective than what the CS are doing. Unless the AI is bugged and doesnt attempt to attack the CS at all.

Yeah but then you would pay the cukture, happy and also the diplo price of conquering a cs. Plus there is less at stake, if the cs fall or is pillaged it is not as if it really were one of your cities.
And you can buy it instantly with enough gold, and they are usually well defended.

When I think if it, with the new pillage patch coming up this strategy will prove immensely more valuable as the fighting will occur far away from your farms.

 

[Pook]

Don't forget religious city-states.

In the early game, it's difficult to generate much faith from your own buildings, with the result that you could end up missing out on founding your own religion. You can try to build Stonehenge, or hope that you start near Mt Sinai or Sri Pada and quickly build a city nearby set to faith focus. However, there is another option. That is to ally with a religious city-state, which can give you 4 or more faith per turn. This can help you get the initial 200+ you need for a religion, and 300+ you need to enhance it.

 

[mintcandy]

City States are worth conquering when there is a recognizable short term benefit for doing so.

In the Mongolian scenario, there are huge benefits to conquering City States as opposed to allying with them, and the time restrictions are just too short to peacefully interact with them.

In a single player non scenario game, the only reason I can fathom for conquering a City State is because they occupy a position that makes it easier to attack another Civ, and conquering said City State is quicker than allying with them.

It's quite rare in my games when a city state occupies such a strategic position and I value the long term benefits of peacefully allying with them.

One could argue that you can duplicate the long term benefits of City States by conquering them. It's true, except for Mercantile City States (the ones that give allied empires food bonuses). These bonuses cannot be duplicated when conquering them.

Also, I tend to build roads through City States, because they still expedite unit movement, and if the City State is at least Friend status, the roads can serve as trade routes. Best of all, I don't have to pay maintenance on the roads on tiles claimed by a City State, but I would if I conquered them.

 

[Moriarte]

I noticed that at early game, their rewards are so low that it would be a lot better to just conquer them instead of throwing 1000 gold their way for the ally bonus.

Depends. Early Maritime alliance can give you size 20 capital by turn 100. Early culture CS = 2-3 more policies in same time frame. Religious CS guarantees a Religion. Later in the game CS's impact your empire less, actually, since you can produce culture, faith, happiness or food yourself.

I wouldn't throw 1k towards religion though

 

[mintcandy]

I don't even understand the point of militaristic states unless they give you a unique unit. You usually get level 1 units when you could be producing level 3 with the heroic epic promotion.

For when your cities are busy with producing other stuff than units (like wonderspam). Plus, having extra units, even as un-graded meatshields, still help boost your military demographics and will make local runaway think twice about invading you.

This.

Also, if I'm warmongering, and I'm going wide, I get the same amount of happiness and culture from a garrisoned city, regardless of whether the garrison is a Warrior with 0 experience or a Longswordsman with 100+ XP with Morale.

Don't think of the units that Militaristic City States give you as crappier versions of things you can produce yourself. Instead, think of the hammers you didn't have to spend to get those units that you can use for building other things. Also, these gifted units can free up more experienced units that are tied up in hunting barbarians for City State influence/culture.

 

[Terakahn]

Also, its good to remember the units are free. Feel free to upgrade them to something more useful. I had a game where I was given a ton of cavalry units, and I never built them that game, so the movement bonuses were amazing.

 

[Pook]

Also, at higher levels (immortal and deity), city-state units are often more advanced than what your own army has.