When do you get Metal Casting?

[Casi]

yea yea just like horse archers suck i guess, dunno how you ppl play but i can appreciate 2 speed units with a retreat chance.
Cavs? Miles away, unless you play candyland only ofc, and always get a boner by waiting till you can do a riflerush or whatever. Boring

Moderator Action: Keep it civilized.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[kossin]

Why don't you educate us and post a game that showcases your arguments?

I'm sure we'd all like to learn new strategies. It does happen from time to time that someone comes along and surprises everyone.

 

[UWHabs]

If you can get knights early, then they're great. However, based on most people's techpaths, I can often get cuirassiers before knights.

 

[Casi]

What for? good players should know that the AI is very vulnerable to 2 speed units a bit away from the main-battlefield. You also know that they don't always guard units with a pikeman? That surprise attacks are harder inside their cultural borders due to the 1 movement only? Ever burned down an important city of a leader that hates you anyway with some 2 speed units, without planning to overrun him completely but to negotiate peace again after some time?

I could go on and on, it's not hard to say "hey woohoo, riflemen those units rock! what an upgrade to the other crap", and then steamroll an AI.
Stunning the AI when it is equal by surprise is more fun, and guess what? Sucky knights and earlier horse archers might suddenly stand in a different light.

 

[Axios]

I tend to research metal casting just 2-3 tech after I have researched iron working, unless I'm building the Oracle.

Usually I tend to build forges asap to get the +25% hammer bonus in synergy with organized religion, obviously when I have a positive health cap.


OT: do you play with normal BTS? If yes, you have noticed when the AI research metal casting? Because in Better AI Mod Ai tend to research mc in 1300-1500AD.

 

[Derakon]

Casi: my experience with taking cities is that it's horribly expensive units-wise once cities start getting remotely decent cultural defenses. The ridiculous longbow just makes things worse. Knights, even granted their first-strike immunity, are going to encounter a meatgrinder if they try to take a city that still has its defenses. But there's no siege units that can keep up with them until Mobile Artillery, so for a surprise strike they'd have to go in alone. That must get horribly expensive in terms of units expended.

Or of course you could use a spy to cause a revolt. I always felt that was rather expensive in terms of EPs, myself, so this is only something you'd try with a city that was a) significantly valuable, and b) close enough to your borders that you could effectively surprise the AI with your wardec.

Not to mention the fact that AI units on roads match pace with your knights -- or are faster once the AI gets Engineering.

 

[kossin]

Are you serious?
Knights are among the best early Units, if you get attacked by a powerstack you need them to take the catas/trebs out, i seriously doubt your warmonging skills sorry

This is your original argument.

yea yea just like horse archers suck i guess, dunno how you ppl play but i can appreciate 2 speed units with a retreat chance.
Cavs? Miles away, unless you play candyland only ofc, and always get a boner by waiting till you can do a riflerush or whatever. Boring

Doesn't apply to the original argument.
Moreover, "early" knights doesn't really happen unless you play candyland or get really lucky with GEs and beeline from the start.

I did not quote your 3rd post as it doesn't add anything relevant. We all know the AI is poorly coded. We all know the AI loves Castles making mincemeat of Knights unless you have spies in the mix. Burning a city for 'fun' does not help in the stop of the war, it just makes the AI angrier at you.

If your goal is to play for fun, then so be it - have fun. But if you want to tell us this is absolutely better and optimal, prove it.

 

[Casi]

Well the trick is f.e. to use a spy and check how his cities are guarded, and strike fast when you see a weak spot. Sometimes the time you need to move the slower units would be too long to do that, and if you have some high produciton cities loosing a few horses isn't such a big deal. For the AI, seeing one of his best cities burned to the ground is a big deal thou

Just today i play Deity with Toku and Cathy as neigbours. Toku the backwards guy that eveyone hates due to no open borders etc declares war on Cathy.
He doesn't like me either as i refused to give him tribute, and i had a great spy that saw Kyoto is only guarded by 3 units atm with some close but moving away, and his mainforce in Cathys land.
So i took 7 or 8 horse archers and burned his capitol that was near me to the ground.

 

[stefista]

Hey no one has mentioned using an MC beeline to set up a great engineer farm. It's probably not a high-end strategy, but it's fun on monarch.

The idea is you go masonry for the pyramids, metal casting for the forge, math for the hanging gardens, and theo for the hagia sophia. Pollute the pool with the national epic, maybe build parthenone elsewhere, and you start poppong great engineers, which you can then use to rush more wonders, found mining, or settle. It's unfortunate that GE's bulb expensive techs and give fewer beakers than GS...if the preference were just tweaked to send you more directly through the military techs and the bulb output equal to GS, a GE farm would be very viable.

More to OC's point, one of the few other reasons I go MC early is to secure one great engineer for a mission-critical wonder shot, such as Sistine Chapel for culture win or AP if I want to go for the cheese win.

 

[Rittmeyer]

Well the trick is f.e. to use a spy and check how his cities are guarded, and strike fast when you see a weak spot. Sometimes the time you need to move the slower units would be too long to do that, and if you have some high produciton cities loosing a few horses isn't such a big deal. For the AI, seeing one of his best cities burned to the ground is a big deal thou

Just today i play Deity with Toku and Cathy as neigbours. Toku the backwards guy that eveyone hates due to no open borders etc declares war on Cathy.
He doesn't like me either as i refused to give him tribute, and i had a great spy that saw Kyoto is only guarded by 3 units atm with some close but moving away, and his mainforce in Cathys land.
So i took 7 or 8 horse archers and burned his capitol that was near me to the ground.

Do not compare the absolute sucky units that knights are to the awesone horse archers. It's as far as comparing you, a big no one who appeared out of nothing with a bizarre theory and contesting the opinion of much greater players, and people like kossin, who posted so many helpfull games and insights in these boards.

 

[vicawoo]

In Warlords, remember Horse Archers receive a 10% penalty attacking cities. And Cavalry only require military tradition and gunpowder, aside from the obvious.

 

[Casi]

Do not compare the absolute sucky units that knights are to the awesone horse archers. It's as far as comparing you, a big no one who appeared out of nothing with a bizarre theory and contesting the opinion of much greater players, and people like kossin, who posted so many helpfull games and insights in these boards.

lol ppl like you crack me up, this needs no further comment

 

[Casi]

Why don't you educate us and post a game that showcases your arguments?

I'm sure we'd all like to learn new strategies. It does happen from time to time that someone comes along and surprises everyone.

And what do you mean with "new strategies"?
You never had games with dominating knights? Meh i won't comment this trainwreck of a "discussion" anymore, you are superior and know all good strats - fine so be it, wasting my time with this nonsene

 

[pi-r8]

And what do you mean with "new strategies"?
You never had games with dominating knights? Meh i won't comment this trainwreck of a "discussion" anymore, you are superior and know all good strats - fine so be it, wasting my time with this nonsene

If you could showcase a game where you dominated with knights on at least immortal level, yes it would be new. If you do it on deity people will be very interested. That being said, I doubt that you're able to get knights much faster than most deity players would be able to get cuirassuirs.

 

[Casi]

That being said, I doubt that you're able to get knights much faster than most deity players would be able to get cuirassuirs.

rofl. This sentence is so full of , i wonder what you ppl dream during nights.
Hilarious omg
Deity players...yea right, next is that someone will claim he beats deity regulary on normal speed/settings. Until you find out he uses marathon and other tricks of course, jezus get a life

Moderator Action: Warned for flaming and language.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[kossin]

My last post in this thread:

Casi, all you do is talk and boast while saying and proving nothing. And being rude to other people, which isn't necessary at all.

You speak of using Knights to destroy enemy SoDs, saying it's better to kill the enemy catapults by sacking Knights than absorb the hit rather.
Fine, if the AI doesn't have Pikes/War Elephants. But that's pretty rare as I've already said.

But how is it less costly than sacking the same amount of Catapults and destroying the whole stack - catapults are much cheaper.

Using HAs to harass AI has been done to death and is also common in multiplayer against humans.

Either get off your high horse or back your statements appropriately.

Peace.

 

[Casi]

Happens often that i use catapults to weaken the few war elephants or pikes, then you can use knights to rip the stack apart. I don't see many other units that would be better to do the rest of the work after catas are done. And as i said, with the knight you can do a fast attack on smaller stacks too meanwhile.

Iam not into this "prove your " thing. It's either impossible on a game like civ, or too much work and the game alrdy eats up enuf time.
Iam out, these forums are not my thing, iam on a high horse? Look into the mirror pls, this is god aweful, forums should be here to discuss, flame a bit and have fun...
not to showcase your e-penis skillz, and as soon as someone dares to say somehing different you want a damn proof from him aka a time-sucker.
Peace

Moderator Action: stop the flames.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Happens often that i use catapults to weaken the few war elephants or pikes, then you can use knights to rip the stack apart. I don't see many other units that would be better to do the rest of the work after catas are done. And as i said, with the knight you can do a fast attack on smaller stacks too meanwhile.

Iam not into this "prove your " thing. It's either impossible on a game like civ, or too much work and the game alrdy eats up enuf time.
Iam out, these forums are not my thing, iam on a high horse? Look into the mirror pls, this is god aweful, forums should be here to discuss, flame a bit and have fun...
not to showcase your e-penis skillz, and as soon as someone dares to say somehing different you want a damn proof from him aka a time-sucker.
Peace

Everyone here writes what is true from his own experience with the game. Since we have had different experiences, we write different things. I have learned a lot on this forum from TMIT and other experts, but also from lesser players like myself who have experimented with different things and reported the results. On of the other things I like about this forum is that nearly everybody treats other posters with respect even when they disagree.

 

[mirthadir]

Well the trick is f.e. to use a spy and check how his cities are guarded, and strike fast when you see a weak spot. Sometimes the time you need to move the slower units would be too long to do that, and if you have some high produciton cities loosing a few horses isn't such a big deal. For the AI, seeing one of his best cities burned to the ground is a big deal thou

Just today i play Deity with Toku and Cathy as neigbours. Toku the backwards guy that eveyone hates due to no open borders etc declares war on Cathy.
He doesn't like me either as i refused to give him tribute, and i had a great spy that saw Kyoto is only guarded by 3 units atm with some close but moving away, and his mainforce in Cathys land.
So i took 7 or 8 horse archers and burned his capitol that was near me to the ground.

So let me just make sure I got this right you are claiming that burning a BC cap on Diety is a GOOD idea? And not just anyone, but Toko? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Look, on deity when you burn a city the AI will just rebuild it and it will become a pain in the ass again in about 15 turns. Given the AI bonuses, the HAs you lose (let's assume 2) means that you come out BEHIND; even worse when you consider all the you just burnt that did nothing relative to the OTHER AIs.

You might burn a city that early to destroy wonders you can't hold, but we are talking Toko, if he has wonders (which is rare) he doesn't do dick with them. You might also burn the AP as a matter of "damn I'm tired of being dicked over by these votes". But just because you can? Massively inefficient move. Of course you are talking about running around with 7-8 HAs on deity and not taking masses of cities as a general rule you are doing something wrong.

You are bragging about pissing off an AI and likely lose more turns worth of production in so doing that Toko loses in rebuilding the city



Look the reason people don't like knights is the numbers. A HA fights 3 vs 4 with a spear even up, but that is rarely the case. Due to the XP advantage of the stable vs nothing more than the rax for the spear, the HA gets a free promo and CI/Shock is decent odds. At knights this advantage no longer exists, CII pikes vs Shock knights is not so forgiving. Likewise HAs will hit CG I(II for pro) archers. While archers do have an extra +25% for city defense; the HA vs Archer comparison is innately stronger than the knight vs LB comparison. Adding in CGII (III for pro) makes it a meat grinder for the knights. For even more fun, on low difficulties HAs can hit with 0 cultural defenses outside of the cap. On higher difficulties you are looking at 20% in most cities (minus maybe Cre civs) and 40% in the others. At knights everything will have at least 40% from culture and there will be huge numbers of castles.

Now compare to curis. Curis counter is ... still the pike. Castles ... are ignored. The top defender is typically going to be ... still a LB (muskets lose the +25% and don't have the 1st strike which I believe the AI still counts for top defender selection even though it is useless; plus the AI has to build muskets while it has masses of left over archery units).

But curis are deeper into the tech tree. Well yes, however guilds is a bastard tech. The AI loves to research it (so you can't trade it or the prereqs as widely). It isn't on a good bulb path (GE are the hardest to get and some of the most attractive to use in other fashions), and it doesn't go a lot of places (banking and econ are again AI favoured techs). In contrast curis come off of mil trad and gunpowder. Mil trad comes from music - which the AI never researches once the GA is gone, but will trade good techs to get - and nat - one of the most reliable lib techs you can get (which also let's you build the Taj for a GA so you can pound out curis quick once you get gunpowder). Gunpowder comes off edu (GS bulb which follows a GS bulb tech) - which is an extremely accessible tech that the AI delays and likes to trade. Also, this feeds into a lib push which can net you something expensive for free (like Nat or maybe even Mil Trad).

In closing, Casi, this is the strategy and tips forum. It is meant to be, shockingly, a place where strategy and tips are debated. If you say "knights rock" people want to know the strategy behind that so they can pick up a few tips to improve their game play. If you want a less rigourous response to your posts, I'd suggest you check out another forum. If you post here people will assume you want to discuss the finer points of strategy and ask you to elucidate your claims so they can either follow your lead or decide it is not the strategy for them.

 

[UWHabs]

I have used knight a few times. AI declares early medieval, and so I'm forced down the Feudalism/machinery line for defense, and at that point, it's cheap to grab guilds and put knights out front.

However, that's only occasionally. More often, I take cuirassiers, which can actually attack and capture cities (with some losses) without siege or spies. Knights can't unless if you get so freaking lucky with them. Like my current game, everything was set up right. Gold in cap, gold in 2nd city. Cap with lots of FP, lots of hammers, marble. No industrious civ on the map. I oracled machinery (I was playing Qin, so I thought that'd be a good idea). So sure, in this game, my tech rate is strong enough that I can probably get knights with some AI without longbows. But really? This game is strong enough as it is that that doesn't actually matter.

Knights do have a use, but it's not a big one. If gunpowder was like 5X more expensive, then knights would be the primary city-takers mid-game. But as it is, I've had more than a few games where I've gotten cuirassiers before knights.