When do you get Metal Casting?

[Derakon]

Honestly, given the complete mess knights made of the actual medieval period, it's amusing to see them be of little use in-game too.

 

[Khan Quest]

Okaaay...back to MC...

I will research MC before Calendar when short on calandar resourses, with happiness problems and access to gold/silver/gems.

I will research it earlier if Ind. and especially with a hammer heavy coastal city and copper. I have had a few games where I built the Colossus in 10 or less turns.

MC is usually what I try to get from the Oracle.

Good luck, and use lots of knights, or not.

 

[Casi]

So let me just make sure I got this right you are claiming that burning a BC cap on Diety is a GOOD idea? And not just anyone, but Toko? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Look, on deity when you burn a city the AI will just rebuild it and it will become a pain in the ass again in about 15 turns. Given the AI bonuses, the HAs you lose (let's assume 2) means that you come out BEHIND; even worse when you consider all the you just burnt that did nothing relative to the OTHER AIs.

grr i didnt want to comment this any further nor anything here, but you kinda force me to...
*look* a capitol has high culture, or at least decent. It was close to my borders, and burning it gave me some new land and possbilities to move around in that corner.
Also, it was impossible to ever get in good standing with Toku, nor did it matter at all as everyone hated him. So pissing him off? I could care less.
And what hammers do you talk about? I lost 2 horses....lol.

Btw i won this Deity game 1h ago, so i guess i know a bit about how to play this game too...and on a side note, upgrading some of those very experienced horse archers to the aweful knights helped a bit, for example in taking over Toku completely.

 

[UncleJJ]

I will research it earlier if Ind. and especially with a hammer heavy coastal city and copper. I have had a few games where I built the Colossus in 10 or less turns.

Well said. I got all the way to your post before someone said exactly what I was going to say

Metal Casting is absolutely great for an Industrious leader with a coastal capital that gets copper. It means he can build his forge for 60 base hammers and then the Colossus which costs 250 hammers only takes 91 base hammers to build since he has forge (+25%), Ind (+50%) and Copper(+100%) as bonusses. So in total it takes 151 base hammers to get a forge and Colossus. Non industrious leaders will need 211 hammers to build that combo with copper and an incredible 320 hammers without copper. Organised religion would change all these numbers but I can't be bothered to calculate all the permutations again

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Well said. I got all the way to your post before someone said exactly what I was going to say

Metal Casting is absolutely great for an Industrious leader with a coastal capital that gets copper. It means he can build his forge for 60 base hammers and then the Colossus which costs 250 hammers only takes 91 base hammers to build since he has forge (+25%), Ind (+50%) and Copper(+100%) as bonusses. So in total it takes 151 base hammers to get a forge and Colossus. Non industrious leaders will need 211 hammers to build that combo with copper and an incredible 320 hammers without copper. Organised religion would change all these numbers but I can't be bothered to calculate all the permutations again

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I am definitely going to put that into practice at my next opportunity. Thanks.

 

[ColossusXXIII]

Nobody seems to value MC's strategic use, if you are playing a naval game, bulbing MC or building the Oracle and rushing MC allows you to build Triremes. On a map like archipeligo having Triremes significantly earlier than your enemies is huge. You could theoretically control any sea lane you can reach. You can absolutely choke any civ's coastal cities with impunity. Smashing their economy and thus their ability to wage war or research MC themselves and build triremes to counter you. Not to mention the happiness and huge production advantage you will hold over absolutely everybody else once you build forges. Plus a Colossus never hurt any economy near the sea. Just think of it you could hold the strongest Naval unit, have higher production and happiness than any of your opponents. Combined with gold from the colossus and you can really do alot of damage... Obviously if your industrious it's even more advantageoous and if you're non financial on a sea based map then the colossus will essentially make you a financial leader on the coast. Plus taking all of these advantages away from your enemies makes sense doesn't it? Also once you can see your monopoly coming to an end you can trade away MC for alot of great techs. On Marathon speed, MC is 2100 0r 2400 beakers compared to 1600 to 1800 for Alphabet or Currency Which are less than 2000, so it makes great trade bait. I usually get a few good techs in trade before I loosen my grip on the metal casting monopoly.

Note: I play on diety now and building the oracle and going for a metal casting monopoly is almost impossible, and strictly not worth it!!! On any other difficulty with the right map type MC is extrmely valuable and a monopoly on it even more so.

 

[mirthadir]

grr i didnt want to comment this any further nor anything here, but you kinda force me to...
*look* a capitol has high culture, or at least decent. It was close to my borders, and burning it gave me some new land and possbilities to move around in that corner.
Also, it was impossible to ever get in good standing with Toku, nor did it matter at all as everyone hated him. So pissing him off? I could care less.
And what hammers do you talk about? I lost 2 horses....lol.

Btw i won this Deity game 1h ago, so i guess i know a bit about how to play this game too...and on a side note, upgrading some of those very experienced horse archers to the aweful knights helped a bit, for example in taking over Toku completely.

Where to start?

1. Why bother razing the cap? Could you not buy peace after having taken it (like normal)?
2. What hammers, how about 2-3 HAs worth? You know enough to get upwards of a third of tech from hammering gold/research.
3. How in hell did you get highly experienced HAs with the numbers you quote? You killed three archers, of whom 2 should not have been full strength. At best that wouldn't even get you more than 3 promos; making your knights a whopping 10% stronger - less efficient than not losing the HAs and upgrading more of them.
4. If you can kill Toko with knights (when Toko has formation pikemen), you can kill him FAR more cheaply with HAs
5. Toko is one of the easiest leaders in the game to get on good standing with. Adopt his religion, go mercantlism -> watch relations go to friendly.
6. Earning "greatest enemy" status makes you far more likely to get a Toko dagger to the back
7. How the frick do you play diety and have trouble with Toko's culture? He starts about as far as you can get from any wonders. He tends to avoid the culture heavy tech lines. He rarely founds religions. If you can't deal with Toko's culture on diety, who can you?

But in any event, I look forward to you posting your saves. It would be interesting to see an actual efficient diety - level use of knights.

 

[Gwynnja]

I look forward to you posting your saves.

me too.

 

[Casi]

Where to start?

1. Why bother razing the cap? Could you not buy peace after having taken it (like normal)?
2. What hammers, how about 2-3 HAs worth? You know enough to get upwards of a third of tech from hammering gold/research.
3. How in hell did you get highly experienced HAs with the numbers you quote? You killed three archers, of whom 2 should not have been full strength. At best that wouldn't even get you more than 3 promos; making your knights a whopping 10% stronger - less efficient than not losing the HAs and upgrading more of them.
4. If you can kill Toko with knights (when Toko has formation pikemen), you can kill him FAR more cheaply with HAs
5. Toko is one of the easiest leaders in the game to get on good standing with. Adopt his religion, go mercantlism -> watch relations go to friendly.
6. Earning "greatest enemy" status makes you far more likely to get a Toko dagger to the back
7. How the frick do you play diety and have trouble with Toko's culture? He starts about as far as you can get from any wonders. He tends to avoid the culture heavy tech lines. He rarely founds religions. If you can't deal with Toko's culture on diety, who can you?

But in any event, I look forward to you posting your saves. It would be interesting to see an actual efficient diety - level use of knights.

look ppl...i got off on the wrong foot here, first lets switch to a frienldy tune again, so ill be the first to apologize

Now about your points.
1. i didn't have the army to risk that. Toku was going to war with Cathy, and i just took advantage.
2. I was willing to just sack some HA for it, my production was going good for deity.
3. from other fights, barbs etc, it was out of context to Toku
4. Toku was/is backwards, he didn't have pikes only longbows
5. I don't want good standing with an easy victim that everyone hates, i wanted to abuse him
6. see above, i was superior to Toku, even on Deity, mainly coz he fought 1-2 other leaders
7. Not trouble, but his capitol started just 2-3 cities away from my own capitol.
Razing it freed my 2nd city from his culture radius, and made killing him off later much easier.

And on a final note, iam not sure why everyone thinks razing a capitol that is rather in the way is a bad idea here. It also gives some cold cash, and since Toku sucks in economy, Kyoto was his best build city. It did weaken him, i know Deity well enuf that he can *not* rebuild such a city in 15 turns, as someone said.

 

[vranasm]

@casi

well map generators usually (emphasis on usually) make capitols in good spots...so missing great city just for the sake of it, is usually not wise.
But since you play deity and me only emperor, you can take it as you want.

Would be interested in some saves from you too... It's never bad to see how things are done by other players.

 

[mirthadir]

look ppl...i got off on the wrong foot here, first lets switch to a frienldy tune again, so ill be the first to apologize

Now about your points.
1. i didn't have the army to risk that. Toku was going to war with Cathy, and i just took advantage.
2. I was willing to just sack some HA for it, my production was going good for deity.
3. from other fights, barbs etc, it was out of context to Toku
4. Toku was/is backwards, he didn't have pikes only longbows
5. I don't want good standing with an easy victim that everyone hates, i wanted to abuse him
6. see above, i was superior to Toku, even on Deity, mainly coz he fought 1-2 other leaders
7. Not trouble, but his capitol started just 2-3 cities away from my own capitol.
Razing it freed my 2nd city from his culture radius, and made killing him off later much easier.

And on a final note, iam not sure why everyone thinks razing a capitol that is rather in the way is a bad idea here. It also gives some cold cash, and since Toku sucks in economy, Kyoto was his best build city. It did weaken him, i know Deity well enuf that he can *not* rebuild such a city in 15 turns, as someone said.

1. What are you talking about? If you razed the cap, you could have just taken the place, and if Toko was at war with Cathy (or building up) I'd be astounded that he had that few units in the cap.
2. So how many a turn were you pulling?
3. Wait let me get this straight you fought another diety AI with HAs and Toko didn't tech while you were doing that? As far as fighting barbs and getting multiple HAs even up to 10 xp - this is diety, how the frick did you keep enough open land for the needed dozen or so barbs to spawn while you teched HBR?
4. Wait, let me get this straight, you are playing a poor run diety because you have the to compete with the insane AI unit bonuses and you got not one, but two techs ahead of Toko? How did you manage that? Given the AI bonuses (and the fact that Toko beelines down that line) it would be highly problematic to outcompete a diety AI on both (getting enough knights/or ANYTHING) to beat CGII (III) LBs and .
5. Why? You gain nothing from abusing him and you burnt a crapload of early (if not effective for HBR).
6. Huh? I'm trying to follow this here, you have a diety AI who loses enough wars that a human can beat him on TWO output fronts, and somehow he DOESN'T CAP to another AI? How in bloody hell did that happen? With power differentials like that Toko will peace vassalize almost instantly.
7. Wait, let me get this straight, you are on diety - so you settle 2 city radii away from your cap (nerfing your tech rate with huge ass maintenance) and settle so close that you are getting culture pressed (but not so bad that Toko just manages to retake the land). Oh and of course there is the whole "where in hell did you manage to get the GW as well?"

Please attach your save to the next post, I'm dying to look it over.

 

[Casi]

Dude it just happens that the land is so good that you can do all those things, even on deity, considering only Toku was near and he grabbed land elsewhere first.

And yes i loose most games on Deity, i have no reason to make up stuff, else i'd say i can beat it regulary which oh god knows isnt the case, most games i try on it are asswipings or abandoned...

On a general note, Toku is the biggest backwards twart in the whole game. He never trades with anyone, i did ofc, and so i managed to pass him techwise. Ask other ppl, that is pretty common for Toku...

Let's just forget this whole thing

 

[Gwynnja]

Dude it just happens that the land is so good that you can do all those things, even on deity, considering only Toku was near and he grabbed land elsewhere first.

And yes i loose most games on Deity, i have no reason to make up stuff, else i'd say i can beat it regulary which oh god knows isnt the case, most games i try on it are asswipings or abandoned...

On a general note, Toku is the biggest backwards twart in the whole game. He never trades with anyone, i did ofc, and so i managed to pass him techwise. Ask other ppl, that is pretty common for Toku...

Let's just forget this whole thing

Dude come on bro just post your save. Since, you know, you have no reason to make up stuff and all.

 

[Casi]

I obviously didn't have that save anymore, or i'd have posted it.
So i started a similiar game, Toku in it again...

As you can see a lot of production in Paris, but been slow teching coz no commerce tiles.
Managed to get the Pyramids.
The 2 gems in Orleans came in just a few turns ago coz i needed to remove Jungle first, been living from capturing the 3 barb cities with a crapload of simple chariots, lost loads to the archers but it was worth it.

Is this winnable? Heck i don't know.
Does it make a point towards HAs and stuff? Nope
But what it does is show that iam already equal to Toku pointwise, and my teching should go up soon with cottages coming in and writing next.

So, this land isn't nearly as good as the one in the game we talked about, coz i had gold and a long river in my capitol there, and good production as in this game.
As i said, it just happens, with gold from the start i would have gone ahead of Toku by now., and he is warmongering early again vs. Hatshi...

Play it and show me how you do in this situation if ya want

http://eqfantasys.de/AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
http://eqfantasys.de/4.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[mirthadir]

Casi:

In other words, in spite of having people ask for a specific save and posting exactly one hour after you finished the game you didn't take post either the 4000 BC save or the game winner? That, sir, stretches credibility beyond the breaking point.

If you can beat deity outside of the odd bit of cheese (AP, dual maps, raging barbs + GW, etc.), I'll be shocked.

You expect us to believe that on diety you:
1. Settled 2 city radii away from your cap for nice, ugly maintenance.
2. Built the GW (the only way to get a GSp before CoL), which means teching masonry and somehow having enough production to get the second hardest wonder in the game to snag on diety.
3. Teched HBR (the only way to get HBR in time to do dick with it on Deity).
4. Built a ton of HAs and either (somehow) had enough barbs left to promote them up or fought another diety ... all before Toko teched feudalism.
5. Found it useful to declare on Toko, but not take any cities and burn a nice number of just to raze a cap and incur a hefty diplo malus (making you toko's most likely war target).
6. Don't care because Toko was diminished enough that you could outtech him by two techs on his favourite tech line.
7. But not diminished enough that he capped or peace vassalized.
8. Additionally this is a heavy empire, by your own admission, but you have enough to pay to mass upgrade HAs to knights and enough knights to chew through all of Toko's protective LBs.
9. Somehow, in spite of other AIs taking a bunch of Toko's land, and you dumping a lot of and into non-economic investments early (HBR, Masonry, GW, HAs, etc.) none of these AIs ran away with the game.
10. Somehow, in spite of all of your "odd" play you managed to have techs to trade (with anyone) on deity. HBR, sure you might be able to trade that out. But gunning down to guilds is a recipe on deity for all the AIs to have all your techs before you do and lacking trade partners. It is one of the reasons that knights suck - the tech and its prereqs are all AI favorites which make monopoly trades almost impossible and even marginal trades hard to come by.

Now somehow you had a phenomenal start that let you do ALL this crap in ONE game. And yet you don't know basic things about the game. For instance Toko readily trades with other AIs who share his religion or that he is among the easiest AIs in the game to get pleased. Likewise that while Toko does fall behind because of his emphasis on units and lack of economic traits/buildings .... he doesn't fall behind that fast. AIs warring with Toko in the early game (at archers as you stated) tend to lose; all the offensive units come before strong economic disparity develops (barring the odd AI with double gems in the cap). BW, archery, and the wheel give toko enough economic potential that the first chance AIs have to leap ahead is at construction (maybe), feudalism, and machinery (maybe).

All of this a remotely competent Immort player should know. You don't seem to. Likewise when a very commonly held opinion, particularly among the highest level players is expressed, you berate me for not knowing how to war - in spite of the actual numbers backing up my points.

Now look, Casi, there is no fault in being wrong. Knights are indeed the relatively weakest mounted units in the game (chariots, in theory, coming before spears lets them not lose out). They come long after their counters, they don't have a good numbers matchup, and the are nerfed hard by castles. HAs are a completely different beast, as are curis; but you are wrong about knights until you post proof otherwise - either numerical analysis or a sequence of saves showing how to leverage knights in a manner that other players have not found. Maybe you will, finally, man up and do the latter or maybe you will man up and admit that you've been lying. Either course would improve your credibility more than "losing" the save of a game so extreme that using it as a basis for arguing is nil.

You, of course, are free to evade, to disparage my skills, or obfuscate however you like - but just as a friendly reminder doing that sort of thing only makes your credibility falter more.

 

[Casi]

Casi:

In other words, in spite of having people ask for a specific save and posting exactly one hour after you finished the game you didn't take post either the 4000 BC save or the game winner? That, sir, stretches credibility beyond the breaking point.

If you can beat deity outside of the odd bit of cheese (AP, dual maps, raging barbs + GW, etc.), I'll be shocked.

You expect us to believe that on diety you:
1. Settled 2 city radii away from your cap for nice, ugly maintenance.
2. Built the GW (the only way to get a GSp before CoL), which means teching masonry and somehow having enough production to get the second hardest wonder in the game to snag on diety.
3. Teched HBR (the only way to get HBR in time to do dick with it on Deity).
4. Built a ton of HAs and either (somehow) had enough barbs left to promote them up or fought another diety ... all before Toko teched feudalism.
5. Found it useful to declare on Toko, but not take any cities and burn a nice number of just to raze a cap and incur a hefty diplo malus (making you toko's most likely war target).
6. Don't care because Toko was diminished enough that you could outtech him by two techs on his favourite tech line.
7. But not diminished enough that he capped or peace vassalized.
8. Additionally this is a heavy empire, by your own admission, but you have enough to pay to mass upgrade HAs to knights and enough knights to chew through all of Toko's protective LBs.
9. Somehow, in spite of other AIs taking a bunch of Toko's land, and you dumping a lot of and into non-economic investments early (HBR, Masonry, GW, HAs, etc.) none of these AIs ran away with the game.
10. Somehow, in spite of all of your "odd" play you managed to have techs to trade (with anyone) on deity. HBR, sure you might be able to trade that out. But gunning down to guilds is a recipe on deity for all the AIs to have all your techs before you do and lacking trade partners. It is one of the reasons that knights suck - the tech and its prereqs are all AI favorites which make monopoly trades almost impossible and even marginal trades hard to come by.

Now somehow you had a phenomenal start that let you do ALL this crap in ONE game. And yet you don't know basic things about the game. For instance Toko readily trades with other AIs who share his religion or that he is among the easiest AIs in the game to get pleased. Likewise that while Toko does fall behind because of his emphasis on units and lack of economic traits/buildings .... he doesn't fall behind that fast. AIs warring with Toko in the early game (at archers as you stated) tend to lose; all the offensive units come before strong economic disparity develops (barring the odd AI with double gems in the cap). BW, archery, and the wheel give toko enough economic potential that the first chance AIs have to leap ahead is at construction (maybe), feudalism, and machinery (maybe).

All of this a remotely competent Immort player should know. You don't seem to. Likewise when a very commonly held opinion, particularly among the highest level players is expressed, you berate me for not knowing how to war - in spite of the actual numbers backing up my points.

Now look, Casi, there is no fault in being wrong. Knights are indeed the relatively weakest mounted units in the game (chariots, in theory, coming before spears lets them not lose out). They come long after their counters, they don't have a good numbers matchup, and the are nerfed hard by castles. HAs are a completely different beast, as are curis; but you are wrong about knights until you post proof otherwise - either numerical analysis or a sequence of saves showing how to leverage knights in a manner that other players have not found. Maybe you will, finally, man up and do the latter or maybe you will man up and admit that you've been lying. Either course would improve your credibility more than "losing" the save of a game so extreme that using it as a basis for arguing is nil.

You, of course, are free to evade, to disparage my skills, or obfuscate however you like - but just as a friendly reminder doing that sort of thing only makes your credibility falter more.

What's your problem? I was asked for the save much later, and the autosave did overwrite ofc as i played around with new games...
I attached a game of another Deity game (no fukking tricks, check the settings...) where i managed to get the Pyramids instead of the GW...

If you would check the save rather than just ranting, Toku is at war early again here.
In the other game, he was the only guy to have Budhism i think, why everyone hated him.
Means he traded with noone...

Do you enjoy being a prick? You think i don't know all the silly points you make?
I ain't evading anything, iam working on a Deity right now to show that i can play.
If you are done pulling your head out of yer butt, show me how YOU do it, mr. i know it all.

 

[vranasm]

@Casi

no point for personal insults, the same for mirthadir I would say.

I thank you that you actually did post save. It's interesting to see to say the least. I hope you will post some more later in the game and best with those knights. Since I am too the meaning that their prime time if even exists is too small for taking really advantage out of them.
And to worse since they come after LBs you cant go with them against archers, so you fight uphill battle without spies/cats.

 

[mirthadir]

What's your problem? I was asked for the save much later, and the autosave did overwrite ofc as i played around with new games...
I attached a game of another Deity game (no fukking tricks, check the settings...) where i managed to get the Pyramids instead of the GW...

If you would check the save rather than just ranting, Toku is at war early again here.
In the other game, he was the only guy to have Budhism i think, why everyone hated him.
Means he traded with noone...

Do you enjoy being a prick? You think i don't know all the silly points you make?
I ain't evading anything, iam working on a Deity right now to show that i can play.
If you are done pulling your head out of yer butt, show me how YOU do it, mr. i know it all.

Sigh, you do know that the settings mean absolutely nothing, right? Those can be changed with ease, along with world building cheating, etc. and leave no traces. In any event getting the GW is much harder than the mids. Due to their cost the mids allow you more time to get stone online and to mass chop the suckers; also the fact that numerous AIs will chase and build the GW before the mids make them easier as well. Why, exactly, when you were involved in a thread, making reference to a game, and had other players already asking you to show rather than tell, did you not save something from the game you were playing and referencing? Past experience has dictated to me that every player who makes grandiose claims and mysteriously fails to save a current game is just blowing smoke.

Still, let's grant that you aren't lying, let's grant that everything happened in your game as you state. It still is so vastly improbable as to be worthless at supporting your points.

Again this is the strategy forum, my "silly points" are strategy and things derived from the actual numbers governing game mechanics. You made strategic assertions which are either true or they are false. I have posted actual strategy as derived from game mechanics, you have BSed about one game which may or may not have occurred and gotten massively prissy whenever anyone asks you to document your assertions.

As to why I am posting here, because I enjoy strategy. I am a paid strategy analyst and it was games like this that got me interested. You can learn a lot of real strategy from a game live CIV, and the forums are a great place for doing that. However, if people just make BS claims with no backing, that gets undermined. Every strategy claim should be scrutinized and no one making such a claim in this forum should react as poorly as you when scrutinized. I hope your poor response is merely the function of immaturity, in which case you will hopefully grow out of it.

So in short, I will wait to see you demonstrate either via analysis or actual play how to properly leverage knights on deity (or for that matter, immort on normal speed). I'd prefer it against a robust threat, like Ragnar, but starting off with Toko would be fine.

As far as how I play. Most of my deity wins have been AP cheese - build the Oracle, take Confu, build a temple, run a priest, bulb theo, build the AP as Christian, (barely) spread Christianity to all the AIs, run the dominant religion and vote myself to victory with one friendly AI (normally same religion with an early game favoured civic like HR, B, OR, Theo, or caste). For most all other wins I normally try to stay competitive until nukes, then I decimate the AI's unit bonuses in a straight forward manner. Using either mass cottages, a economy driven off PS/SP/Caste WS/mines/mills allows me to get a lot of nukes quick (hopefully in time to kill the main threats before they go culture or space). Much of the time I end up running corps and (with the capture of the Kremlin) may also using a high whip approach.

Surviving to get there is normally done by: diplo, seizing my own landmass and staying out of the AI-AI fray over on the other landmass(es), or liberal use defensive war tactics. Rarely, I will rush (and HA is preferable to me as I can more easily nab key AI cities quicker for fewer ); I almost never fight treb wars (the techs are not good trade bait and aren't GSc bulbable); and I find that waiting until the gunpowder era is far more rewarding.

All of this are known strategy. You, however, are making a unique counter-consensus claim. Which is why you ought to back your claim with either games played or numerical analysis. Kindly, please keep up us posted as you showcase a better leveraging of knights.

vranasm: I said nothing about Casi's character, I speak only of his actions and what perceptions may be driven by those. Frankly, I don't have to call him names his own actions are far more eloquent than I could ever hope to be.

 

[Casi]

This is not worth the time, reading through answers that could as well have been writte by a bunch of lawyers. Except by some ppl, but you know who you are, so don't take me offensive.
Disappointing to see that Civ seems to be played mostly by ppl with a stick up their A$$, or maybe the game changed you that much alrdy? I know what an impact this addiction can cause, maybe you need help.

P.S. FU for even mentioning the world editor, i don't even know how to launch it coz i dun care.

Moderator Action: stop the flames.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Bibor]

P.S. "#$#u for even mentioning the world editor, i don't even know how to launch it coz i dun care.

Your posts are probably going to get removed, but I'll just say this. Casi, you're not a deity player. Please stop lying about it. I visit these forums often because these are not World of Warcraft forums - people that discuss things here are polite, educated and smart. On top of that, real deity players have the patience, skill, knowledge and will to beat a deity game. You sir have none of the mentioned traits, neither as a poster nor as a deity player.

Most people around here are way beyond your level of expertise and are used to polite and intelligent discussions, so they sometimes answer, sometimes repeatedly, to trolling for they forgot how trolling looks like.

To conclude in your own language: stop trolling or GTFO.

On topic, excluding the obvious benefits of slingshots, production boosts, trade baits etc., in my today's game I had a situation where it was beneficial to go Metal casting after writing and Iron working, because the civs I was competing against (and wanted to trade with) were likely to go Alphabet, Calendar, CoL and Currency. Which they did, and I merrily traded Metal casting around for all the mentioned techs.

Moderator Action: Calling another user a troll is flaming - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889