When do you get Metal Casting?

Casi: The number of dead archers:chariots is instructive. Good players tend to know pretty well what the odds are and have a good idea of the expectation value for the expected losses. Your numbers are more than two standard deviations from the mean at the first glance. Couple this with your phenomenal (so phenomenal I just don't think it is possible) previous game and too much "luck" is not explainable. Other little things like having a handy double gem location, stone and horses in the initial BFC (with your food source being pasture based to boot), plenty of land to settle, etc. are all also possible, but don't exactly scream typical play. Several of the key difficulties of deity have magically vanished due to your phenomenally "lucky" game.


This is particularly striking given the fact that there are EXTREMELY simple things you DON'T DO that would make your play stronger. For instance in your early save you don't have sailing so you can't trade via ports with the AI, you are 5 worker-turns from getting a road to Peter which will convert a number of your domestic trade routes into foreign ones - one :commerce: to two :commerce: in all your cities. Worse, when you are teching pottery you are building a (for now) useless road through the jungle to the bananas instead.

It is okay to admit you were wrong, but the longer you keep on doing things that are ALWAYS showing phenomenal good "luck" in your games, the less likely your claims are to be believed.

Also, if you really want to make this a pissing contest about who knows better strategy outside of the game, think twice. First because MMORPG are about the bottom of the strategy tree (pretty much any raid ever can be completed with sufficient use of mass healers, a huge number of the roles do not require any thought, and often the most efficient strategy is to run through a large number of low odds runs to clear the place when you get lucky). Secondly, my real world strategy experience is likely superior to everyone else on the board combined (unless anyone else here has ever spent time inside of G3 or similar). If you really want to keep harping about your Evercrack experience, I'm going to start talking about honest war games with things like Harriers, Abrams, and Bradleys doing the shooting. I suggest you stick to Civ and demonstrate your strategic prowess there rather than starting a pissing contest outside of Civ which you will lose.

AT: Mostly it is hyperbole, but it can become surprisingly close as it all depends on the starting line and what you have to trade. For the best instance you decide to start a mounted war after having gunned down lit -> music (free GA to spawn a GA if you know what I mean)-> CS having nabbed the Parth and TGL. You are now set to mass bulb philo, paper, edu, and lib. Often you can trade for gunpowder and that just leaves nat, con, and mil trad to actually research; one of which comes off of lib. You can either lib nat and take a free GA off the taj or you can try to broker it with multiple trades and lib con. A bonus GA can make for a LOT of quick research and infra building (reducing the turns to get up Oxford and effectively reducing turn cost for mil trad and cons). Also of note in a town heavy game, getting to lib let's you vastly inflate your :commerce: per turn. If we gunned knights from the beginning of the game, obviously we could get there first. But if the point of decision happens after we have a strong GSc bulb setup, the bulbs don't work on the guilds line, they muck up the liberalism bulb, and you can (in rare circumstances) end up only having to tech mil trad itself. If you lack strong trading partners (e.g. you can only trade one more tech before hitting WFYABTA), but have a strong marble/GSc setup, this sort of thing can actually work out. I haven't tried it, but I seem to recall that you can make this even more viable with a late GAr bulb of mil trad (I think the GAr can be made to bulb mil trad, but I rarely have those in that time frame).

Ultimately this sort of thing hinges upon the restrictions on GSc bulbs, the use of Lib, and the higher output possible via the pre-reqs from mil trad.
 
Secondly, my real world strategy experience is likely superior to everyone else on the board combined (unless anyone else here has ever spent time inside of G3 or similar).

I spent time playing Panzer General I. Does that count? :D

Seriously, strategy in its essence is a sum of thousands of simple mathematical calculations (adding and substracting) and the only aim of strategy is that you come up with numbers in such a way that the end result is a positive number for you and a negative number for the opponent. I think CIV4 captures that pretty well (a huge plus for "stacks of doom" concept) and it's pretty hard to hide if you've been tampering with it (i.e. cheating).
 
Casi: The number of dead archers:chariots is instructive. Good players tend to know pretty well what the odds are and have a good idea of the expectation value for the expected losses. Your numbers are more than two standard deviations from the mean at the first glance.

Other little things like having a handy double gem location, stone and horses in the initial BFC (with your food source being pasture based to boot), plenty of land to settle, etc.

This is particularly striking given the fact that there are EXTREMELY simple things you DON'T DO that would make your play stronger. For instance in your early save you don't have sailing so you can't trade via ports with the AI, you are 5 worker-turns from getting a road to Peter which will convert a number of your domestic trade routes into foreign ones

You made an amazingly long post there lol...
the chariots - archer thing: this game was not winnable unless you rush the barbaric cities, i can tell you that much.
I built them as fast as i could, with the goal to burn them until i got the cities.
I lost less than expected, that seems to be a huge problem for you guys...i'll leave it at that.
Btw ever heared of AIs attacking them too, and you steal the city with one of your stationed units?
Before you imply cheating, at least think about if you covered all possibilities.

Peter? Trade routes? I never had a Peter in my game, you seem confused.

Handy gems location...yea on jungle. Are you implying again i might have cheated?
Sad my friend. Lots of land to settle? Woo i got 6 cities, 3 from barbs or the AI would surely have been faster.

I can live with constructive critisism, but your's is just sad and worthless.
 
Casi:
are you still playing the save? I'd love to see what happen next. Would be very happy if you show how to use Knight to rush.
 
you guys got the wrong idea there :/
Knights aren't always the best way to go in that area...all i said is that they are not a bad unit, at least for my playstyle.

I stopped playing it, sorry mate, not much time for Civ atm, and being questioned as an abuser of certain things by some ppl didn't help my motivation too along with the lack of time.
 
@ moderators: Is there any chance of splitting this discussion into 2 threads?
1 on topic. The 2nd on the values of knights on deity.
Before it much longer.

I just read through a lot of off topic comments, while occasionally useful, may better serve all in a 2nd thread to facilitate efficient reading of each topic as desired.
 
You made an amazingly long post there lol...
the chariots - archer thing: this game was not winnable unless you rush the barbaric cities, i can tell you that much.
I built them as fast as i could, with the goal to burn them until i got the cities.
I lost less than expected, that seems to be a huge problem for you guys...i'll leave it at that.
Btw ever heared of AIs attacking them too, and you steal the city with one of your stationed units?
Before you imply cheating, at least think about if you covered all possibilities.

Peter? Trade routes? I never had a Peter in my game, you seem confused.

Handy gems location...yea on jungle. Are you implying again i might have cheated?
Sad my friend. Lots of land to settle? Woo i got 6 cities, 3 from barbs or the AI would surely have been faster.

I can live with constructive critisism, but your's is just sad and worthless.

This game is easily winnable as a OCC; you have enough goodies that you should be able to nab the AP off a GPr bulb and the only real difficulty will be gifting a city (conquest or otherwise) to Toko. But hey, what would changed that.

As for Peter, my apologies, Catherine, I misrecalled the Russian. You burnt a lot of worker turns doing stuff with no immediate benefit rather than connecting your trade network to the AI's so you can use foreign trade routes to boost your :commerce: haul.

Odd strategy you have by the way. Massing chariots on deity "as fast as you could" so you are building them before ANY barb cities spawn (and depending on where the AI wanders you might have none ... oh wait you got lucky). Then you sit on your chariots until the AI just happens to kill off units for you, instead of you know, suiciding weak units into archers on a hill piecemeal and giving the defenders free upgrades (oh wait, my bad you got "lucky" again and the AI killed enough barb archers to make your losses low, but not enough to poach the cities). Of course you manage to nab the mids whilst getting out the chariots "as fast you could" (oh wait, nevermind, you were "lucky" and the AI waited while you burnt through enough :hammers: to build the mids twice on chariots). You realize that the odds were more favourable to your claims back when I assumed you were just killing 2/3rds of the units yourself.

Now there is a simple way to demonstrate this isn't luck that doesn't involve you play out a deity game to guilds to prove it: Run the numbers. If you don't have time to play out an example, that's fine, please just then show us some math as to what we are missing with knights. Just a few simple things that a deity player should be able to do with ease: what is your expected :hammers: exchange rate, how much EP/:hammers: you need per AI city ... you know, basic stuff. I confess when I look at the numbers the knight comes after its counters (jumbos/pike), it has a worse ratio against the common defender (LB) thanks to promos, and castles are a royal pain ... all of which shows me no way to make knights cost effective enough deity to be a strong unit. They literally are the weakest of the mounted units on deity as compared to their same era counterparts.

Hopefully this post and the words contained therein have been short enough for you. Seeing how you have, once again, failed to post any backing for your claims might we induce you to show us your math?
 
Bibor: Strategy is the art of leveraging what assets you have into acheiving your desired results. In a game like civ, the problem is bounded and at some level discrete analysis is possible. In real world strategy this is not the case. Many elements of strategy, such as getting inside the other general's OODA loop, are not amendable to quantification; many that are, are too difficult to calculate explicitly, and even when you can there is a strong element of bluff and the like which requires reading tacit knowledge of the situation.

Civ has a very rich strategic experience; particularly for those who go multi-player (I very rarely do), but it does miss all the "art" aspects of strategy.
 
Bibor: Strategy is the art of leveraging what assets you have into acheiving your desired results. In a game like civ, the problem is bounded and at some level discrete analysis is possible. In real world strategy this is not the case. Many elements of strategy, such as getting inside the other general's OODA loop, are not amendable to quantification; many that are, are too difficult to calculate explicitly, and even when you can there is a strong element of bluff and the like which requires reading tacit knowledge of the situation.

As soon as you tag a result as desired you loose your strategic advantage. Aikido is a perfect example, just as is Vietnam, Stalingrad, Moscow (Napoleon), Battle for Britain, Rome (Hannibal), Iwo Jima etc.

Let the other side decide what they think you desire. Obviously this is not a very good way to perform a dogfight 30.000 feet above sealevel. :D

The OODA loop works on a tactical level, but on a strategical one, the waters are way more murky.
Unfortunately for real world strategist (and luckily for CIV ones), they are bound by politicians' promises or by personal ego (Stalingrad will hold! We will liberate Iraq!!11one), promises that put a middle finger into every possible hole that can be found in the letters OODA.
 
Odd strategy you have by the way. Massing chariots on deity "as fast as you could" so you are building them before ANY barb cities spawn (and depending on where the AI wanders you might have none ... oh wait you got lucky). Then you sit on your chariots until the AI just happens to kill off units for you, instead of you know, suiciding weak units into archers on a hill piecemeal and giving the defenders free upgrades (oh wait, my bad you got "lucky" again and the AI killed enough barb archers to make your losses low, but not enough to poach the cities).

I have argued with a lot of ppl online, but you are the...ok i'll be polite...toughest...
I will explain it step by step for you big guy.

1. Settle Paris, see the circumstances - production city with stone.
2. Animal husbandary asap, 2 cows
3. See a good location for Orleans, plan to settle near the gems
4. Go for the pyramids
5. Now the important part, take good note Einstein: See the barbs build the hill city before i had the time/chance to build another settler in Paris or Orleans, who were busy with TP/a worker.
Shortly after i see myself surrounded by the barbs. I need an army after spending so much time on TP. I have horses. I need to tech iron working for the 2 gems location.
Guess what that means now...i have *nothing* to build but barracks/chariots. To explain it slowly to you: Masonry = wonders only, iron working = nothing. So i start building those chariots, the only unit i can, and Paris builds them fast as they have stone, horses, cows etc.
When i have 8 or 9 chariots i attack the hill city with 4 archers, hoping it will be enough. Around 7% chance + 7% retreat chance. More chariots still in the production queue.
I get lucky and win one of the fights, and no archer kills off a chariot without loosing lifepoints.
I manage to take over the city with just 3 or 4 lost.
6. I move on to the next barb city, planning to station the chariots (that both cities still produced/chopped out coz i lost some). Toku comes to that same city with a swordsman + x
He blindly attacks, 2 archers survive, 1 hurt. I can take over this city rather easily too.
7. The 3rd city is a bit further away, and that's where i lost the other 3 chariots, some with str.2 i think. Not on a hill.

This is really the last time i explain it, if it's not "mathematically" enuf for you, maybe play Emperor.
 
you guys got the wrong idea there :/
Knights aren't always the best way to go in that area...all i said is that they are not a bad unit, at least for my playstyle.

I stopped playing it, sorry mate, not much time for Civ atm, and being questioned as an abuser of certain things by some ppl didn't help my motivation too along with the lack of time.

Knight may be strong per se, but its position in the tech tree means that Knight domination will be very short, if it ever exists. Couple with its cost, I kinda agree with other posters that it's not a useful, someone call it bad, unit.

You mention it's up to your playstyle. That what me and others wanna see how you pull it out because frankly, most players that I've met don't ever bother to build a single Knight in their game.

But it's up to you.
 
It's fun to watch Knights getting speared by a Pikeman. A good Pikeman can even take out Calvary. I love them.

Getting back on the topic of my thread here, when do you normally get Metal Casting?
 
It's fun to watch Knights getting speared by a Pikeman. A good Pikeman can even take out Calvary. I love them.

Getting back on the topic of my thread here, when do you normally get Metal Casting?

Usually back fill it unless under special situation e.g. play Chinese for CKN, build colossus.
 
Just when I thought I found a place in this magical land of the internets where thought and understanding were valued over blameless, faceless character attacks :(

I find MC to be one of the least comfortable techs to miss, yet I always seem to miss it! I always want forges, workshops and even triremes yet never want to spend the massive amount of early beakers on MC. Lately I have taken to waiting forever to trade for it then picking it up in time to use workshops to convert commerce cities into production cities post-liberalism for my ren wars.

That is a lot later than I would like but it is just hard for me to justify otherwise. I will look into the happiness effects of forges in the future and see if that helps justify getting it earlier.
 
Just when I thought I found a place in this magical land of the internets where thought and understanding were valued over blameless, faceless character attacks :(

Keep the faith. 99% of the posters on forums.civfanatics.com are helpful and polite.
 
Just when I thought I found a place in this magical land of the internets where thought and understanding were valued over blameless, faceless character attacks :(

I find MC to be one of the least comfortable techs to miss, yet I always seem to miss it! I always want forges, workshops and even triremes yet never want to spend the massive amount of early beakers on MC. Lately I have taken to waiting forever to trade for it then picking it up in time to use workshops to convert commerce cities into production cities post-liberalism for my ren wars.

That is a lot later than I would like but it is just hard for me to justify otherwise. I will look into the happiness effects of forges in the future and see if that helps justify getting it earlier.

I do the same thing, and it was starting to make me nervous about my general strategy toward MC. I mean, as an Industrious leader, I can build forges fast. So, then, how high of a priority ought I place on MC? I'm still not sure of the answer. I'd like to hear from other Industrious folks how they play it. Since I play for Cultural Victory, I always make sure all my cities get forges to build all those Temples and religious buildings post-Liberalism (if not sooner). But beyond that, I still can't see where it has a natural place in the sequence of technologies one acquires. I started this thread to get some perspective on that question.

P.S. This is a very civilized forum. Stick around. You'll see. The moderators also do a good job.:)
 
Generally I go for it when I start wanting to fix my city happiness issues. I'm not a huge fan of hereditary rule (can't be bothered to make units for most cities that are nearing the happy cap), but forges are often a big happiness booster since they double the happy effects of gems, gold, and silver. The extra productivity is a nice bonus, of course.

I tend to end up putting it somewhere around when I'm going for Paper / Philosophy. That just seems to be where it ends up being convenient to pick up. There's no real plan behind this, of course.
 
no one argues that actually have MC is bad... but one can argue that self teching MC is bad when you need things like monarchy, col, currency for supporting your crashed economy. Add to that AIs which get Oracle mostly go MC for free since it's so high beakers tech.

@Derakon
if you have gold+gems+silver of course go for it! But I rarely do all 3... I am happy when i get at least 1 and then it really is not that hot option for battling early unhappy.
 
The issue is that it's not the most useful tech around most games, and doesn't really lead into anything unless if you actually want an early machinery or optics, so it keeps getting further and further down the list. I usually only get it when I start thinking, "damn, freaking barb galleys. Let's build a trireme to ... crap."
 
I rarely research it, because I delay it so long that I can get it by trade for Philosophy or something. The times I do get it early and can run Organized Relgion along with my Industrious trait, Thebes can wonder-spam like crazy. And it helps my cities with few hammers to build stuff at a decent speed. Otherwise, I sometimes have a distant city that takes forever to build a Courthouse. To me, the building speed advantage of Forges is more important than its happiness factor.
 
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