When do you NOT spam cottages?

Here's the way I look at cottages vs. specialists:

In the early game, unless I have the pyramids and the choice to go with rep, then there's nothing to be gained, per se, by mandating all of one's tiles be going towards one type of "economy" or the other. You don't have the civics to boost either one, so the decision of whether to run specialists or cottages comes down to a city-by-city basis, at least until the printing press/liberalism/constitution, when you can benefit from actually gearing your whole civ around a certain civic (and thus around a certain economy).

So, in the early game, I'll run specialists where I have surplus food and can't grow anymore due to the happy cap, and I'll grow cottages in cities that don't have a lot of surplus food and need a citizen working every tile (preferably grassland cottages) in order to grow more quickly.

With specialists, one definitely needs to not just consider the beakers one gets, but the GPP points as well.

Consider: the first great person costs 100 GPP and, if it's a scientist, can potentially yield over 1500 beakers from bulbing, right? (In fact, (1500 + (3*pop)) if I recall correctly). Now, of course, often one does not used this full amount in bulbing techs, except for techs like education which cost more than 1 scientist to bulb. But let's assume we get ~ 1500 beakers from a scientist bulb on average.

So for that first great scientist, that's over 15 beakers per GPP. So a scientist specialist in that first city to produce a GS that is seemingly producing "only" 3 beakers + 3 GPP per turn is actually producing 3 + 3*15 = 48 beakers per turn! Assuming we are feeding a scientist with two farms, then that's 48/3 = 16 beakers per citizen, and 48/2 = 24 beakers/tile.

After the first GS is born, the next one costs 200 GPP, and gives the same 1500 beakers. So that's 7.5 beakers per GPP. So the scientist specialists at that 2nd city are producing 3 + 3*7.5 = 25.5 beakers per turn. That's 25.5/3 = 8.5 beakers per citizen, and 25.5/2 = 12.75 beakers/tile.

For the third city, its GS will cost 300 GPP. 5 beakers per GPP. 3 + 3*5 = 18 beakers/turn. 18/3 = 6 beakers/citizen. 18/2 = 9 beakers/tile.

For the fourth city, its GS will cost 400 GPP. 3.75 beakers per GPP. 3 + 3*3.75 = 14.25 beakers/turn. 14.25/3 = 4.75 beakers/citizen. 14.25/2 = 7.125 beakers/tile.

For the fifth city, its GS will cost 500 GPP. 3 beakers per GPP. 3 + 3*3 = 12 beakers/turn. 12/3 = 4 beakers/citizen. 12/2 = 6 beakers/tile.

So, by the fifth city, cottages (up to 4 beakers/citizen and 4 beakers/food-neutral-tile if grassland) start to become competitive. So it only makes sense to build a library and run two scientists in about 5 cities. If you have more cities than that, cottage the rest. (And note: this is independent of map size, total # of cities, etc. So a predominantly specialist economy in the early game is going to make more sense on a small map than on a large one (where you will have many cities beyond the fifth city that will be better off working cottages)).

And keep in mind, if one is bulbing stuff like philosophy, then you can cut these calculations in half (because you're only getting like 750 beakers from each bulb) and so it wouldn't make sense to run 2 scientist specialists beyond a third city.

Also, these calculations suggest that if a city is never going to produce another great person, then (non-rep-boosted) scientist specialists give really crappy yields. So if it is at all possible (meaning, if happy caps allow), after a city running 2 scientists has produced its GP, then it is a good idea for that city to stop running 2 scientists and start doing something else, because those GPP are going to end up equaling 0 beakers, and the only thing you'll be getting is 3 beakers/turn, or 3/3 = 1 beaker per citizen, or 3/2 = 1.5 beakers per tile.

Finally, these calculations suggest that whether one gets the pyramids or not is a trivial factor in the decision of how many pairs of scientists to run. Whether that 1st city gives 48 beakers/turn or 51 beakers/turn doesn't really matter a whole lot.

On the other hand, the philosophical trait really changes these calculations dramatically by making each scientist specialist give twice as many GPP, and thus almost twice as many beakers, in effect. For that city producing the first GS, a scientist specialist will actually produce 3 + 6*15 = 93 beakers/turn!!! (And, whoopdie-do, 6 + 6*15 = 96 beakers/turn if you bothered to chop out the pyramids).

The same thing applies to pacifism as to the philosophical trait (and halfway so to the parthenon). So according to these calculations, the really key wonder to an early game specialist economy is not the pyramids, but the parthenon, because the scientists in the city producing the first GS will produce 3 + 4.5*15 = 70.5 beakers/turn, vs. 6 + 3*15 = 51 beakers/turn if you had the pyramids but not the parthenon.
 
@Izmir Stinger

I think we both need to do the same thing as it sounds like we have the same troubles. We should run a game in the forum as a help us game and post saves every so often so the high level players can directly point to the issues.

I've played a few games this week on Monarch and they've been very easy, basically winning however I want and I've played some games on Emp and just been stomped, obviously I'm doing something wrong, it can't all be the map for this big a change.

I struggled on my Monarch-> Emperor jump, too, but I am finally comfortable on emperor with my cottage spamming ways, but am worried that the pattern I am in will make Immortal too hard.

I'm going to make a game and put a link in this thread. pi-r8 and r_rolo1 can fight about who's advice is superior over there or post shadows for comparison purposes.
 
Food can usually be turned into hammers at better than even rates (and if you think plains are generally not worth working but grasslands are, you seem to agree that 1:food: is worth much more than 1:hammers:). If you don't run slavery for easy conversion, there are still workshops and hills which you might otherwise leave idle. Hammers can be turned into commercy things by building them but that's usually a horrible waste. Failure cash if I have the wonder resource is the only direct conversion I sometimes consider worthwhile.

Unless our city has vastly different multipliers from our empire-wide average, all commercy things are interchangeable... I think we can leave those out. Turning 1:food:1:hammers: into 3:commerce: (we need to gain one since yields of the hamlet add up to 4 rather than 5) is possible by using awful conversion mechanics. I'd go so far and say that 1:food: is worth around 3:commerce: and 1:hammers: is worth around 2:hammers: most of the time.
 
Food can usually be turned into hammers at better than even rates (and if you think plains are generally not worth working but grasslands are, you seem to agree that 1:food: is worth much more than 1:hammers:). If you don't run slavery for easy conversion, there are still workshops and hills which you might otherwise leave idle. Hammers can be turned into commercy things by building them but that's usually a horrible waste. Failure cash if I have the wonder resource is the only direct conversion I sometimes consider worthwhile.

Unless our city has vastly different multipliers from our empire-wide average, all commercy things are interchangeable... I think we can leave those out. Turning 1:food:1:hammers: into 3:commerce: (we need to gain one since yields of the hamlet add up to 4 rather than 5) is possible by using awful conversion mechanics. I'd go so far and say that 1:food: is worth around 3:commerce: and 1:hammers: is worth around 2:hammers: most of the time.
First, the food being much more worthy than anything else is not my position:
jdog5000 said:
(...)the AI values yields by default as:

F: 10
H: 6
C: 4
... it is the Firaxis one ( I agree with them in this valuation in broad terms ...except when drafting enters in play ) .

On the second paragraph... can you elaborate a little? How exactly do you got those numbers? And BTW how do you value :espionage: and :science: in the middle of this all?
 
@Zeiter

Tech costs scale with difficulty. From memory Philosophy is over 1300 beakers on Deity (not the suggested 750), and this will likely be your least efficient bulb. Your calculations seem to neglect trading potential too. Bulbing a 1300+ tech instantly, and then trading for another couple of techs could potentially net around 3000 beakers worth of techs, whereas self research might obtain the tech too slowly for it to have any trading value. Another important benefit of bulbing is the initiative, sure you may get more raw beakers eventually by sticking an Academy in a decent commerce city, but how many beakers over 100+ turns does it take to beat 1500+ beakers immediately? At lower levels, initiative is not really an issue as you can slaughter the AI's tech rate with slow and steady research.
 
Wanna fight about cottages vs specialists in a non hypothetical capacity? Jump over to my other thread and advise me on how to make specialists work, or post a shadow game where you achieve better results with cottages.

But by all means, continue the discussion. And I appreciate the links to sample games. I will read through those later.
 
I never said otherwise. Read above... I was comparing specialists with hamlets and said clearly that above hamlets things do not favour specialists ( if using a 50-60% science slider or bigger, that is ...)
OK, but I don't see how you can separate the two. I mean, the only way to get to get villages and towns is to work hamlets. Focusing only on the short term output and ignoring long term consequences seems strangely short-sighted.

Irrelevant. We were comparing raw output. If you want to bring modifiers in , you need to also bring the espionage spending modifier ( basically if you generate a lot of espionage, the missions get cheaper) that can go up to -50%, and to be honest all the others.
It's not irrelevant, it's just a fact that in any typical situation you will have research multipliers, and I doubt you'll have scotland yard. Maybe you can get discounts, that depends on all sorts of factors like how far away they are, and how much they're spending, and it all becomes a real headache to try and calculate.

True about the piss off, but again not relevant for the discussion. And I really don't see where you got the double of espionage ... my missions normally get a discount of 20-30% when all the modifiers are summed and I've seen people taking techs at half the price in terms of beakersTrue, but it wasn't me that brought the 1 F 1 H 2 C . Anyway 2 H 4 C is only competitive with 1 :science: 4 :espionage: if you have really low espionage modifiers on the city you're using to steal and you're running a very high :science: slider ( and this is suposing that those hammers are going to research ... if they aren't things look even more shaky )
I didn't even mention the biggest downside of trying to steal research- you can only get techs the AI has already researched. That means you're stuck following the AI's tech path, which means a long slow slog through all the medieval techs. Also, you'll probably never be able to trade anything.

Anyway trying to compare espionage to direct research gets really complicated really fast. If you just want to try and get as much commerce as possible, then Iranon said it best- 1 food and 1 hammer is worth at least 3 commerce.
 
Zeiter- I like your calculations but I think you've understated the case for bulbing. If you're philosophical, then basically all of those numbers get doubled. And typically you don't have to work 2 farms to feed 1 specialist- 1 irrigated corn or pigs or fish can feed 2 specialists. You can also use pacifism, the national epic, the parthenon, and a golden age. So the theoretical max would be:

1 pig feeds two scientists = 6 GPP.
+ 1 from pacifism, 1 from philosophical, 1 from national epic, 1 from golden age, .5 from parthenon gives 5.5 GPP rate.
6 * 5.5 = 33GPP/turn = 4 turns (almost 3!) to make a great scientist.
1500/4 = 375 beakers/turn, or 125 beakers per citizen.

And then you can trade it around for even more.

Of course it's not realistic that you'd ever have all those bonuses in place, for your first person. But you'll probably be getting some of those. That's just to show what an insane bargain bulbing can be.
 
OK, but I don't see how you can separate the two. I mean, the only way to get to get villages and towns is to work hamlets. Focusing only on the short term output and ignoring long term consequences seems strangely short-sighted.
You can't separate GPP out of specialists too, but people do it all the time. In fact you also did it :p if it is fair game to pretend that specs don't give GPP, it is also fair game to compare specs with any of the states of the cottage development ( in fact IMHO it is even more fair )

It's not irrelevant, it's just a fact that in any typical situation you will have research multipliers, and I doubt you'll have scotland yard. Maybe you can get discounts, that depends on all sorts of factors like how far away they are, and how much they're spending, and it all becomes a real headache to try and calculate.
You will always have espionage multipliers ( for usage, mind so ), even before you can have libraries on ( positive or negative... it obviously depends ). And espionage it is not more complicated to calculate than say, a global research multiplier ( and to be honest, the game does it for you :D , so I don't see your point here ) . But again you can't assume modifiers for beakers and no modifiers for espionage usage ( or vice versa ) for sake of fairness. My point with that text was to point that.

I didn't even mention the biggest downside of trying to steal research- you can only get techs the AI has already researched. That means you're stuck following the AI's tech path, which means a long slow slog through all the medieval techs. Also, you'll probably never be able to trade anything.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. Why do people always assume that you can't tech while stealing techs? Can't they see that 1 :science: in the hover? And besides that, running spy specialists does not force you to not use the :science: slider , so you can still continue your tech path of choice and steal the rest...
Anyway trying to compare espionage to direct research gets really complicated really fast. If you just want to try and get as much commerce as possible, then Iranon said it best- 1 food and 1 hammer is worth at least 3 commerce.
Wrong again. What matters is the tech output ( quoting a poster of page 1 ) and because of that the REAL comparison is in the total tech output ... and that is hell of faraway of commerce... if you want to maximize commerce output, that is a very diferent thing, you obviously want to cottage the hell out. But again, that is a diferent question... the question that I was forced to discuss is if 2H 4C has more/less worth than 1 :science: 4 :espionage: , and for that you need, besides the already beaten to death discussions or how F/H/C relate with each other ( and other even more esoterical considerations about the :science: slider ), you also need to know what is the game real :science:/:espionage: ratio ( IMHO it is normally close of 5/4 ). Atleast a more concrete response than "Ridiculous" would be helpful .....
 
@ r_rolo1:

Interesting information about the AI weights; I didn't know about them. Mine were personal evaluations without hard evidence behind them... but I think they work out better.
By the numbers used by the AI, unimproved grassland forest > plains hill mine, and any windmill > any mine.
These are equal by my numbers and I think that's a fairer description.


Even using the higher weight on commercs, spies would be value-neutral: 5 commerce equivalents (or less, see below) a 4 points, but gobbling up 2 food for 20 points to support. A plains hamlet would still accrue 4 points or 1 commerce unit's worth.

I generally value beakers and gold as much as commerce (depending on multipliers and position of the slider, they may be better or worse... the difference can usually be ignored imo). Culture and espionage vary in usefulness and I usually consider them worth less. I rarely channel commerce into espionage but I often prefer spies over scientists... doing so implies valuing espionage at least half as much as beakers.
 
After the first GS is born, the next one costs 200 GPP, and gives the same 1500 beakers. So that's 7.5 beakers per GPP. So the scientist specialists at that 2nd city are producing 3 + 3*7.5 = 25.5 beakers per turn. That's 25.5/3 = 8.5 beakers per citizen, and 25.5/2 = 12.75 beakers/tile.

For the third city, its GS will cost 300 GPP. 5 beakers per GPP. 3 + 3*5 = 18 beakers/turn. 18/3 = 6 beakers/citizen. 18/2 = 9 beakers/tile.

For the fourth city, its GS will cost 400 GPP. 3.75 beakers per GPP. 3 + 3*3.75 = 14.25 beakers/turn. 14.25/3 = 4.75 beakers/citizen. 14.25/2 = 7.125 beakers/tile.

For the fifth city, its GS will cost 500 GPP. 3 beakers per GPP. 3 + 3*3 = 12 beakers/turn. 12/3 = 4 beakers/citizen. 12/2 = 6 beakers/tile.

This kind of analysis seems to assume you aren't running a GP farm, or at least not one on the scale I usually do. With the possible exception of my first great person (a scientist, or sometimes a prophet if I need to shrine a holy city I captured) every single one of my great people is born in one city. I pick a city with lots of food, often an enemy capital, my capital, or some good tripple seafood site, whip in every specialist enabler I can and run as many of them as I can inside my happy cap. This is often my most populous city, between whips.

So are you suggesting that I run two scientists in a bunch of cities until one pops, then pull them out of that city until another pops, then pull them out of that city until another pops... etc? I'd have to not run any additional scientists in a city where I build the great library until I think the miscellaneous cities are tapped out, and then establish a great people farm there.
 
This kind of analysis seems to assume you aren't running a GP farm, or at least not one on the scale I usually do. With the possible exception of my first great person (a scientist, or sometimes a prophet if I need to shrine a holy city I captured) every single one of my great people is born in one city. I pick a city with lots of food, often an enemy capital, my capital, or some good tripple seafood site, whip in every specialist enabler I can and run as many of them as I can inside my happy cap. This is often my most populous city, between whips.

So are you suggesting that I run two scientists in a bunch of cities until one pops, then pull them out of that city until another pops, then pull them out of that city until another pops... etc? I'd have to not run any additional scientists in a city where I build the great library until I think the miscellaneous cities are tapped out, and then establish a great people farm there.

I find that sometimes it takes me some time to set up a GP-farm. You've gotta already have a good city site, and then if you are shooting for the Great Library, you've gotta build a library and that first, and then you build your national epic. In the meantime, you can probably get 1 or 2 GS's from running pairs of scientists.

That said, after one has a GP-farm, if it is sufficiently powerful such that the other cities will never produce a GP, or will only produce a GP at like the 1000 GPP level, then it doesn't make sense to run specialists in those cities, as the beaker/GPP ratio will not be good (zero at worst), and you are left with only 3 beakers/turn.

I did my analysis assuming identical cities running pairs of scientists because that was the simplest. I don't necessarily suggest that you constrain yourself to that. The point was that, as long as a city is going to pop one of the first five or so great people, then running specialists in there is definitely worth it. Otherwise, cottages. And representation doesn't really change the equation a whole lot, whereas parthenon/philosphical/pacifism/anything that alters the beakers/GPP ratio tilts the scales a lot in the specialist economy's favor.
 
Can't. That is the "cottages still suck but I have to work them anyway or they will never mature" phase.

Though I am intrigued with the idea of running SE and then completely overhauling it after Emancipation. Even with the double growth, isn't that going to be like a second economic crash, though?

In a specialist heavy strategy you will be most likely taking early aggressive action. Hence your cottages are captured, not built. Let the AI cottage over everything while you focus on hammers and food for specialists, then take the cottages by force. Once you have enough cottages new cities can be workshopped and watermilled to finish the game.

However, all this is very reliant on the pyramids, at least for an amateur like me. Representation allows you to stay alive in the tech race without the science slider, and some good bulbs and trades can make you viable for long enough to kick some butts and capture enough land to become dominant in the longterm. Without representation...no so much.
 
These are the two snippets that best express my approach to this dilemma

I'm equally at home with either extreme form of economy and generally dislike hybrids unless the map forces it on me. I enjoy specialist-driven economies more than cottage spam, but which one I am more comfortable with when playing to win changes from time to time.
As ever, Iranion and I agree on so much :). These words are better than any I can write. His point about hybrids is most pertinent to this topic. They are generally inefficient, either the cottages lose out or the specialists do, depending on the civics you'll be running in the middle and late game. If you go with cottage spam then the CE civics will make the most of your economy in the end game and so it makes sense to build more cottages where you have that choice. Without SE civics specialists will tend to be below par outside the GP farm where GPPs make up for the shortfall. If you follow the SE approach then any cottage will always be limited to 5 commerce by the end game civics and lose about 40% of its potential. In that case limiting the number of cottages and maximising the number of specialists will tend to improve the economy. Where you have choice in the matter it is generally it is better to move towards either one or the other end of the cottages - specialist spectrum and run the appropriate civics.

IMHO the Mids must rate as the most overrated wonder in this game. At Deity, it is often a very dubious build even if you have stone. Pursuing the Mids nearly always retards development, and can seriously scupper expansion if you need to compete with neighbours for land, though it can sometimes be useful when isolated. Also, those rep scientists come at the expense of food/hammers, the latter are more likely to be of importance during the initial expansion/development stage. If you avoid retarding the development of your cities to support the scientists, it's possible that the rep abuse period before Constitution can be potentially researched might not be too long. This is more likely to be the case at Deity, where aggressive bulbing combined with AI tech trade back filling can lead to very early Constitution. As others have mentioned, the main power of scientists in the early game is the Great People, this is why Philosophical is such a good trait.

Quoted for truth. I would extend this and say The Pyramids are a gambit on Emperor and higher levels that might mean that they actually ****** expansion and development more than any gain from early Representation. Having The Pyramids does mean that Constitution is less of a priority and so if you have a valid alternative research strategy they do allow you that freedom. However, I draw particular attention to the sentence I have bolded. Once the non Pyramids SE has reached Constitution it is likely to be in a superior position, being able to run Representation, build jails and having techs to trade with relative freedom.
 
Concerning the discussion between r_rolo1, Iranion and pi-r8 on the relative merits of a plains cottage and a spy specialist, I have to say I use both approaches and consider them roughly equivalent in terms of usefulness. Plains cottages are quite useful in an early SE providing a source of commerce (to meet the base load costs) and making use of a tile that otherwise can't contribute much. The same applies to an early spy specialist run from the courthouse slot and without Representation. Its return is as good as a specialist can be at that stage of the game but it is far from spectacular. The value of EPs versus beakers changes as the game progresses and if you invest heavilly in an espionage approach then 1 EP = 1 beaker can be a fair long term valuation. A spy specialist yielding 4 EPs can be quite useful in the early game when the only other sources of EPs are the 4 from your palace and 2 from each courthouse. You can't steal techs using them but they do begin to establish an ascendancy in EP points that will become useful later on.

However, once Constitution is researched the balance changes with both Representation and Jails boosting the spy significantly. In a SE you aren't likely to run FS so a plains cottage will be limited to 5 commerce (with PP) but can still give a respectable income in cities that have good commerce multipliers and particularly if they don't have a lot of spare food. My big SE cities tend to have markets, grocers (for happy and health) and universities (for Rep beakers) and don't get whipped or drafted much so a plains cottage will be often be worthwhile. My small cities will have minimal infrastructure apart from the espionage buildings so running the spy is likely to be the clear winner there. So for me there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference and I use both, sometimes at the same time and even in the same city ;)
 
Building a mix of farms and cottages (don't like the term economies in civ4) may be inefficient in theory but it's almost always the best way to win the game on high levels. I always miss the aspect of timing in these sort of discussions. You ideally need to run rep (but often you can't)/caste/pacifism with specs early if you build farms. US/FS/emancipation is often best with cottages. Not always btw, rep can still be fine in a cottage economy. Mind you you can't run these civics before late mid game when many think the game is already over. So much for theory.

In practice this won't help much of course. In real civ life you look at map, available food resources and how tiles can or can't be farmed early. You keep in mind that you will be running buro so you tend to cottage your capital, for other cities it depends on the map, i like +6 food surplus in cities and cottages not on rivers tend to be slow for non financial leaders. This approach that improves tiles on a per city basis will almost always lead to a mix (a hybrid economy as it's called i believe) and it's the strongest way to handle the game imo. Developing your game according to civics you can't run for quite some time and disregarding the needs of the map seems like an inferior approach to me.

Agree 100% on Mids being very overrated, there are some maps where it's quite strong though. But on deity constitution is teched and traded so early that you hardly have time to enjoy the benefits of Mids.
 
Sorry for derailing this even further, but regarding the Great People angle:

I did a series of calculations on GP spawns when analysing the Philosophical trait. I assumed a main GP farm with twice as many base GPP as any other specialist cities and the National Epic. Each group of 3 columns stands for different number of supporting specialist cities (0, 3, 6 and 10). First column in each group is for no other GPP multipliers, second for Philosophical or Pacisfism (run at all times), third for both. Period length is the amount of time it takes the GP farm to collect 200 base GPP (100 base GPP for the other cities).

Number of Great People spawned:

Code:
	0				3				6				10	

2	3	3		2	3	3		2	3	3		2	3	3
3	4	5		3	4	6		3	4	6		3	4	6
4	5	6		4	6	8		4	6	9		4	6	9
5	6	7		5	8	9		5	8	11		5	8	11
5	7	8		5	9	10		5	10	12		5	10	12
6	8	9		6	10	11		6	11	13		6	11	13
7	8	10		7	10	12		7	12	13		7	12	15
7	9	10		8	11	13		8	13	14		8	13	16
8	9	11		9	11	14		9	14	15		9	14	18
8	10	11		10	12	15		10	14	16		10	15	19
8	10	12		10	13	15		10	14	17		10	16	19
9	11	12		11	14	16		11	14	18		11	17	20
9	11	13		12	14	16		12	15	19		12	18	21
9	12	13		12	15	17		12	16	20		12	19	22
10	12	14		12	15	18		12	17	21		12	19	22
10	12	14		13	16	18		13	17	21		13	19	23
10	13	15		13	16	19		13	18	22		13	19	24
11	13	15		14	17	19		14	18	22		14	20	24
11	13	15		14	17	20		14	19	22		14	21	25
11	14	16		14	17	20		15	19	23		15	21	26

Note that without Philosophical or Pacifism, more than 3 additional specialist cities might have no effect at all on Great People generation.
 
Don't spam cottages if you don't have two or more good production cities that can constantly pump units, if that's the case then you need all cities contributing to military, with the exception of maybe one or two economic cities keeping the slider going. If you have a couple of good production cities you can cottage many of your other grassland cities.

Lategame they become more effective than specialists for research though, once you have a ton of land it's best to convert most of it to cottage spam with a few good production centers. Once you get US/Emancipation they become much better improvements, especially if you're on a river for a levee. And of course, rush buying rules.

I'm not going to go into the huge mathematical equations, but here is my logic:

Earlygame:
Production = Power
Power = Land (hills)+Population (slavery)
SE = population (farms) +production (mines)
SE = Power

Lategame:
Commerce = Production (via US)
Production = Power
CE = Commerce (cottages) + Production (rushbuy and hammer bonus on cottages)
CE = Power

Now there are obviously cases where you'd go cottage spam from the start, and cases where you'd SE the entire game, but given an average start on a nonfinancial leader generally SE is superior earlygame because it gives you more potential :hammers: and lategame CE or Hybrid is superior because it gives you more potential :hammers: . See a pattern? :hammers: = win.
 
Back
Top Bottom