When Lot offered his daughters to the angry mob...

[kochman]

Get over it? This is one of the key passages used to justify treating homosexuals as second class citizens. So long as christians want to make a segment of the population suffer over this garbage passage its worthy of attention. Trust me, Id much rather this passage was ignored as the rubbish it is, but unfortunately it is not.

Sorry to inform you, but I am a Christian, and I don't treat homosexuals as 2nd class citizens... nor do MANY.
Thanks for judging over 1 billion people in one fell swoop.

 

[kramerfan86]

Sorry to inform you, but I am a Christian, and I don't treat homosexuals as 2nd class citizens... nor do MANY.
Thanks for judging over 1 billion people in one fell swoop.

Thanks for inserting a comment that I didnt make to avoid to point about the passage's importance. I said christians, because it is in fact christians who use this passage to justify bigotry. You should note I did not say ALL christians. That was your own insertion.

 

[kochman]

Thanks for inserting a comment that I didnt make to avoid to point about the passage's importance. I said christians, because it is in fact christians who use this passage to justify bigotry. You should note I did not say ALL christians. That was your own insertion.

Fair enough... some people are just like that... blaming a story for being misinterpreted is kind of poor reasoning though, isn't it?

You've clearly got a bone to pick against Christianity, which is ok, but just try to be a little more sensitive if you can, as it is a serious matter for many.

 

[kramerfan86]

Only a bone to pick with a certain segment. Those like you who know to not take the fairy tales of the old testament as fact and instead focus on the new testament and the positive message of Jesus are fine, that is in fact what I consider myself to be. I just have minimal tolerance for the other end of the christian spectrum, the die hards to take the whole bible as fact and worst of all attempt to insert their beliefs into others lives forcibly like Santorum.

my venom for this particular passage is extreme because as I said it is a centerpiece of the anti-homosexuality that infests the world. People get killed over this passage.

 

[kochman]

Only a bone to pick with a certain segment. Those like you who know to not take the fairy tales of the old testament as fact and instead focus on the new testament and the positive message of Jesus are fine, that is in fact what I consider myself to be. I just have minimal tolerance for the other end of the christian spectrum, the die hards to take the whole bible as fact and worst of all attempt to insert their beliefs into others lives forcibly like Santorum.

my venom for this particular passage is extreme because as I said it is a centerpiece of the anti-homosexuality that infests the world. People get killed over this passage.

I agree, the fundamentalist, literalistic types... they make me a bit upset.
But, in the end, people are people... if they use the Bible as their excuse for being intolerant, they missed the WHOLE point.
Jesus didn't utter one word about gayness... He had bigger fish to fry... like the salvation of us a-holes.

 

[kramerfan86]

Golden rule is forgotten in favor of taking stories about man rape, daughter sacrifice, genital mutilation, and scientifically incorrect natural history completely literally. I often wish the old testament simply wasnt included in the bible. I know at times knowing that it is false made me question just what else was false.

 

[kochman]

Golden rule is forgotten in favor of taking stories about man rape, daughter sacrifice, genital mutilation, and scientifically incorrect natural history completely literally. I often wish the old testament simply wasnt included in the bible. I know at times knowing that it is false made me question just what else was false.

I think God wants us to question things, and it is healthy.
He knows the Bible isn't perfect, it was written by man trying to interpret Him... which is pretty much a tough task. He wants us to honestly evaluate... but not to judge those who may have mis-evaluated... IMO.

 

[kramerfan86]

But still the old testament goes beyond misquoting. It just says things that HAVE to be parable. The great flood? That isnt a misinterpretation, that just is scientifically false. Same thing with this idea of literal creationism the bible puts forth. It just seems illogical to have a book of mostly fictional lesson teaching parables shoehorned onto the supposedly factual new testament.

 

[kochman]

But still the old testament goes beyond misquoting. It just says things that HAVE to be parable. The great flood? That isnt a misinterpretation, that just is scientifically false. Same thing with this idea of literal creationism the bible puts forth. It just seems illogical to have a book of mostly fictional lesson teaching parables shoehorned onto the supposedly factual new testament.

Clearly, the literal teaching... that the world is so young, is false... it's not on our time schedule...

Intelligent design (not rapid creationism), is clearly a better option. Part of that, to me, is realizing God doesn't work on our time table.

There are so many paradoxes within the Bible, it just gets to the point where you have to look at the overall message intended behind them... and some people won't/can't do that... on either side of the coin.

I think you and I are basically on the same page here... I just look at my own life, and realize, I shouldn't take things so literally/fatalistic as I used to... and I work on accepting things from that perspective now.

 

[kramerfan86]

I tend to focus on the new testament, I write off the old testament near entirely. Ive had too much science to believe most of it and the God of the old testament behavior wise just does not add up with the loving and merciful God who sent Jesus in the new testament. It just seems like an entirely different character vindictive and destructive instead of merciful and loving.

 

[kochman]

I tend to focus on the new testament, I write off the old testament near entirely. Ive had too much science to believe most of it and the God of the old testament behavior wise just does not add up with the loving and merciful God who sent Jesus in the new testament. It just seems like an entirely different character vindictive and destructive instead of merciful and loving.

I agree... take what you can from the OT... it's old, and full of unguided mysticism, especially in the beginning.

That's why I write off much of the NT too, what you are saying.
Jesus was very loose and forgiving...

Then we get Paul, who started as a fanatical anti-Christian... and then becomes a radical Christian who just starts making things way more organized and strict.

Jesus was preaching to crowds gathered at random... telling people to love their enemy...
Paul... well, he basically just changed the targets of his persecuting ways.

 

[kramerfan86]

See outside of demonic possession we are actually pretty close to agreement

 

[kochman]

See outside of demonic possession we are actually pretty close to agreement

Yes... I wish you could see the things I have seen... but, we all see what we see for a reason, I believe... so, maybe I needed to see these things to believe?

 

[timtofly]

You are really trying to justify tossing up one's own children as offerings to an angry mob, seriously? I think most decent parents would offer themselves up before sacrificing their children.

First Point. They were not children. In fact they drugged their own father after leaving Sodom, so they could have their own children.

Second Point. Lot should have left when they were children, not wait around town for destruction to force him to leave.

Third point. God did the destruction, not man. If man takes matter into their own hands, then they are evil themselves.

This was a true story, not some made up fable to incite modern day believers to incite mob violence over a action that offends them.

It is a warning that when God leaves town, there is no turning back. People are free-moral agents, and they can choose their own path, but if one is offended at history, it should not be because it actually happened, but because no one learned anything from what actually happened.

That is the problem with picking and choosing parts of the Bible. If it is not taken as a whole, it is not very trustworthy. There is a lot in the Bible that is hard to explain, but when one refuses to accept what one does understand, is where judgment comes. If any one starts spouting off the Bible for his own gain, or to the offense of others just for the fun of it, then they are wicked. If God himself causes things to happen that are unexplainable and offensive, then no man can take credit for it. If he does, then that person will be just as cursed as Lot was. No one person is holier than another, and most judgment starts with believers first and then those who choose to ignore the facts.

 

[kochman]

Facts like the world was created in 7 days?
Do you interpret that literally?

 

[JollyRoger]

You've got to take a lot of the details with a grain of salt.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Every message doesn't have to be blatantly positive to be potent.
Sometimes, life sucks.

The Bible - important enough to be filled with stories that are there for no apparent reasons whatsoever.

This story must have had some importance else it would have been redacted during the times in which it was edited.

 

[timtofly]

Facts like the world was created in 7 days?
Do you interpret that literally?

I do not interpret anything. I do trust God to know what He is doing, will do, and has done. If God said something, then, I accept it and move on. While it makes for interesting conversations, I do not assume to state it to be truthful on any findings today, since there are none. I assume scientist know their stuff and have their assumptions, but I cannot say who knows what and, even scientist interpret data. It is trusting God that worries me more than winning any debate or even trusting my soul on modern man.

 

[JollyRoger]

I wouldn't trust Zeus with my female acquaintances.

 

[timtofly]

The Bible - important enough to be filled with stories that are there for no apparent reasons whatsoever.

This story must have had some importance else it would have been redacted during the times in which it was edited.

Since it was the miserable history of the Moabites and Ammonites, some of the Jews most hated enemies, then it has a reason seamingly? Those people who offered up their children to the death to appease the god's.