When Men Sue Women’s Empowerment Orgs for Gender Discrimination

[Lexicus]

Person 1 - "Limes are actually oranges. It's just that they are green."
Person 2 - "This is completely wrong"
miaasma - "YOU DON'T THINK LIMES ARE GREEN??? LOL WOW!!!"

I mean, "completely wrong" has a meaning and in that example it literally would mean that person 2 is saying limes aren't green

This is why it's helpful to be precise in our use of language

 

[miaasma]

oh my god he agrees with you except also he thinks cops aren't biased but there's a huge selection bias in the studies you're talking about

you know generally speaking even bottom of the barrel online trolls don't contradict themselves on practically a post-by-post basis

 

[Chose]

I mean, "completely wrong" has a meaning and in that example it literally would mean that person 2 is saying limes aren't green

This is why it's helpful to be precise in our use of language

I disagree that it would mean that. It's a very uncharitable and silly interpretation. Language is imprecise, and you can alway parse sentences in an unflattering why. This is why philosophers used to emphasize using formal languages to avoid ambiguity. But in reality, if you are genuinely unsure you can always ask to clear something up, because there will always be ambiguities.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't think so. I'm very against anyone going to jail for nonviolent drug crimes for example, well I'm against them being a crime at all. If I remember correctly that would solve like 50% or some insanely high number of federal incarcerations.

I'm talking about using violence to get past our violent nature
Something doesn't compute about that
It's a faux deep point not really for this thread
But it's really a lot like Jordan Peterson claiming the solution to male violence is more male violence

I largely agree with all this, although I think there is a big selection bias in what studies you are talking about. And again if you look at something like murder rates you're going to have a much harder time pinning that on cops, or lack of prosecution in white communities.

I don't really understand what you mean by 'selection bias' in this context. And I don't really understand your point in bringing up murders either. You're claiming that black people don't really commit more marijuana offenses than white people but they do commit far more murders?

I disagree that it would mean that. It's a very uncharitable and silly interpretation. Language is imprecise, and you can alway parse sentences in an unflattering why. This is why philosophers used to emphasize using formal languages to avoid ambiguity. But in reality, if you are genuinely unsure you can always ask to clear something up, because there will always be ambiguities.

Well I also initially interpreted your claim to mean that there are no racial disparities in the justice system except that black people commit more crimes. Language doesn't have to be imprecise.

 

[miaasma]

there was nothing imprecise about what he said, he's just trying to turn this into a semantics debate to distract from how ignorant his initial post was

it's the same kind of evasive action as saying you're being misinterpreted even when your post has 1 (one) interpretation

the best thing he could do is just say he misspoke but i think the ego is too large for that considering my colourful pm box

 

[Lexicus]

he misspoke

Well, pretty clearly that's what happened here. No big deal, let's move past it.

Anecdotal but funny: the story of a white guy trying to get arrested in New York
https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...-could-look-inside-the-justice-system/282360/

I went home and blogged about the incident, publicizing what I’d done [he graffiti'd City Hall in broad daylight in view of numerous cops] and posting pictures, before returning to the guard tower the next day, and the next, to hand over my license and letter. Each time, the guards saw a young professional in a suit, not the suspect they had in mind, and each time they handed me back my license and turned me away. On my fifth day of trying, a reporter from Courthouse News Service tagged along. At first skeptical, he watched in disbelief as the officer took my license, made a phone call, and sent me on my way.

 

[Ryika]

You're claiming that black people don't really commit more marijuana offenses than white people but they do commit far more murders?

They obviously do.

It's very sneaky to separate out cannabis use, as that's one of the few "crimes" that does not correlate with class and income. Cannabis is used in all layers of society, and there's evidence that suggests it even goes up slightly as education goes up.

That's not true for violent crime at all. All violent crimes show a higher occurrence on poorer environments (and that holds true in countries that are largely racially homogeneous). Who lives in those poorer environments? Right... black people.

That's a very obvious, clear-cut connection there that you have not refuted. All you've done is to show that unfair policing is a part of the problem, but nobody has argued against that at all. Both are true: Black people are treated unequally when it comes to policing, and they also commit more violent crimes.

If you want to argue against that, then you have to show why the correlation that we see everywhere somehow does not hold in this very specific case. Just showing that other factors exist is simply not enough.

 

[Lexicus]

question: does anyone else read this person's posts in goofy's voice

I read them like those spongebob MeMeS wHeRe ThE TeXt Is LiKe ThIs

 

[miaasma]

i liked the first version of that post better

 

[Lexicus]

i liked the first version of that post better

I try not to encourage them

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Thread is closed for review.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: The thread has been reopened with the provision that the discussion be approached in a mature and sensible manner. That means no more trolling of each other. If you folks get carried away again, the thread will be closed permanently.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Where does this idea come from? I hear it everywhere mouthed that the reason why young men are angry is that somehow they had tapped into some sort of epigenetic feeling that men are great, and now that things have equalized a bit they are struck with an existential crisis of not being as great as they though they were. Where is the evidence for this line of thought? There is temporal correlation there of course, but is there really a causal connection? When exactly were lower class men and boys taught that they were great to begin with? Why isn't this victim blaming, the ultimate sin of the present moment? A man that has no power, has no power, and if having no power is being victimized, then that man is a victim regardless of how much power some other men have. Could you point to some research that points to your claim, that it indeed is the case, that young men are angry because their, I guess you could call it "birthright", has somehow been robbed from them, and this is what explains the boy crisis that exists virtually everywhere in the western world? I've never seen any actual research on this outside of kneejerk reactions by feminist commentators. I can of course be wrong, and that this is indeed the case, but I sincerely doubt it.

This is just my personal experience. I did "hard science" in college and all my life worked in a predominantly male "hard science" field. I don't know for a fact that men aren't oppressed in their English classes, but I wasn't. Frankly, I did not feel oppressed in any of my non-science classes, and I also suspect it's illegal to press students over their opinions, which is why I dismiss such claims as fake. If they were true and there were evidence, the guy could make millions in a lawsuit.

I also don't have any education in feminism, and I am far from a feminist commentator. I am just a dude who is becoming increasingly frustrated with his male friends who complain about life and instead of focusing on themselves start blaming women and minorities. Let's see... where does their feeling of potential greatness comes from? Well, first of all, 44 US presidents were white men, and not all of them came from the middle class. Harry Truman, for example, was born into a farmer's family. Aside from the fact that politicians, bankers, executives, generals, and other important people are white men, the American Dream in itself is a promise that you can pull yourself up by the bootstraps and succeed if you just work hard enough. Most of "self-made" millionaires also happen to be white men, which makes even me wonder if I could become a millionaire if I worked hard enough? So that's representation, which I think matters a lot. When you see people who look like you succeed, you are more likely to believe that you will succeed, too.

Now, back to my male friends and colleagues: some of them come from the middle class, and some are first generation college graduates. All of them criticize "females" (that's what they call women) for being catty, yet they are the ones who make snarky, petty, and passive aggressive comments not just to women, but to each other. They complain about being single and horny, but in the same breath they call women whores and say they are over them (also, there is more porn online than a man can watch in his lifetime, so if you are that horny you can just jerk off). They act creepy and sleazy, but think it's cool. They call minorities "snowflakes", but will throw a tantrum when someone mentions their preferred pronoun. They want to act tough, but some of them watched "My Little Pony" and loved it.

And as a hardcore gamer, I used to spend a lot of time on gaming boards. I saw the seeds of the incel and alt-right movements develop as early as 2011. What I found interesting is that these men complained about life, but they also hated other men, both alpha "Chads" and "beta ****s" of their own circle. They fought with other men of their stature and put them down, while complaining how feminism oppresses them even though, again, they were the ones harassing each other for not being good enough.

All of this comes from my personal life. I am not a feminist, and I am not triggered by feminism. I have just come to a realization many men of my generation have failed to mature. My parents told me to clean my room when I was a little boy, so I don't need a daddy figure to sort out my issues now. I never felt like women owe me anything and treated them with respect, so I don't have issues in my dating life. I never felt like immigrants and minorities are stealing my job because my companies never hired any.

I am honestly having a very hard watching my friends live in some distorted reality and clinging so hard to it that they simply refuse to see all life has to offer.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

The entirely appropriate suggestion from @Lexicus was to go out and have a drink with guys - which I, in fact, just did - but I don't see it principally different from starting an all-male "sewing club" or whatever.

When you hang out with people from your circles, it is your private life. Nobody has a problem with that. People have problems with exclusive men's clubs or other segregated institutions because historically they have been very explicit in denying women entry. Universities once denied women higher education, so if you were a woman, you could not actually go anywhere past basic schooling. That is a problem because it's not some professor's personal life, but a whole institution which denies half the population entry based on... well, nothing really. The belief that women's brains are not suited for higher education and stuff like that?

If you just hang out with your buddies in your free time and don't want any women around, that's your personal business, but if you are an executive at a large company and decide you won't want to hire any qualified women, that's discrimination, and it carries more influence than just drinking with your friends in your free time. I hope it's a little clear now that some personal actions are different from large-scale systems of oppression and institutional bias?

If we lived in a perfectly equal word, I guarantee nobody would be upset with someone occasionally starting a segregated by gender club—people get upset because of the history and the ongoing discrimination of certain groups. The consequences of centuries of sexist practices do not vanish overnight, and precisely because there is discrimination against women at large, it is perfectly fine that they make their women-only islands in the large ocean that is human society.

PS: I was just on a vacation with my male buddies, and nobody thought it was discriminatory. However, one of my friends was constantly whining about how hard it is being a white man in this country right now. In the same breath, he was telling us that women of color are taking over and gaining social capital by claiming victimhood (kinda what he himself did just five minutes ago). Needless to say, nobody liked him, and we are actually considering dropping him from our circle altogether. Note that the other friends are also not SJW's, but I think it just goes to show that the men who complain about feminism oppressing them frequently end up being whiny losers whom nobody likes anyway. So the problem is not feminism, but their personalities.

 

[Ryika]

If we lived in a perfectly equal word, I guarantee nobody would be upset with someone occasionally starting a segregated by gender club—people get upset because of the history and the ongoing discrimination of certain groups. The consequences of centuries of sexist practices do not vanish overnight, and precisely because there is discrimination against women at large, it is perfectly fine that they make their women-only islands in the large ocean that is human society.

That's literally discrimination on the basis of sex.

 

[miaasma]

attempting to form groups with people of the same sex because people of the opposite sex keep trying to kill you is LITERALLY discrimination on the basis of sex, i can't believe this

 

[red_elk]

Now, back to my male friends and colleagues: some of them come from the middle class, and some are first generation college graduates. All of them criticize "females" (that's what they call women) for being catty, yet they are the ones who make snarky, petty, and passive aggressive comments not just to women, but to each other. They complain about being single and horny, but in the same breath they call women whores and say they are over them (also, there is more porn online than a man can watch in his lifetime, so if you are that horny you can just jerk off). They act creepy and sleazy, but think it's cool. They call minorities "snowflakes", but will throw a tantrum when someone mentions their preferred pronoun.

If your friends and colleagues are indeed such jerks, I sympathize. It must be really hard to live among them.
My friends and colleagues, male and female, are mostly nice people.

 

[Ryika]

attempting to form groups with people of the same sex because people of the opposite sex keep trying to kill you is LITERALLY discrimination on the basis of sex, i can't believe this

You thought "What's the stupidest thing I could say in response?", and then you doubled it!

Moderator Action: Warned for flaming. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[miaasma]

You thought "What's the stupidest thing I could say in response?", and then you doubled it!

i mean my post was literally just paraphrasing yours but uh, sure

 

[Ryika]

i mean my post was literally just paraphrasing yours but uh, sure

If you really think that men as a group are trying to kill women as a group, then maybe you should visit a psychiatrist. You might qualify for some nice little bonuses like free housing if you know what I mean.