When Should We Enter Democracy?

[Donovan Zoi]

Please discuss here our chances for entering Democracy. What do we need to do? Are we closer than we think? What are the pros and cons?

I believe we at least need to build a few more marketplaces before we consider the switch but feel we should consider the opportunity soon. If we are ever to have a chance in the science race, we need the extra commerce and lower corruption that Democracy will provide.

Switching to Democracy soon will also allow us to better protect ourselves by sending many of our interior forces to our perimeter and coastal cities, since there would no longer be a need for martial law.

Please join the discussion.

 

[donsig]

You know how you get the option to continue playing after you've won the game? After we win we should click on play a few more turns (or what ever it says) and then we should switch to democracy.

We've rolled over the Aztecs, Japanese and Indians so far. We're facing Babylon right now. Russia may still be easy pickings. We've all been wanting to invade America for eons. The Persians deserve a taste of a real war and Fanatika is the only country powerful enough to give them one. We've made it to the industrial age and we're working towards the tech for our unique unit. Why in heaven's name would we want to switch to democracy?!? That would throw our dreams of domination out the window or flush them down the drain depending on your preference.
Don't let this domestic leader stuff cause you to stray from the true path Donovan Zoi. We need a government that will allow us to continue on our war making way.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

donsig, will we be allowed a domination victory if we work our way down to the Persians? In other words, if we take our allotted 75% and Persia has the other 25% --- can we win by domination?

I would hope not, because that would be an unsatisfying victory.

Regarding my true path, it has always been middle age conquest followed by going to the head of the class domestically. I find constant war to be tiresome and leaves no balance to the game. Especially now, when our cavalry will butt heads with rifles and then infantry, a war cannot possibly be in the cards.

When we get to Panzers, I will think of war again, but until then we should seize this opportunity to maximize ourselves domestically. And that can best be done with Democracy.

 

[Immortal]

Dono: You raise an interesting topic (at one point I was advocating a switch to democracy) however our nation is not built for democracy. We are a warlike people, just look at our traits, our unique unit has yet to be seen in battle, when it happens, noone will anticipate the onslaught we will unleash onto the world. We need monarchy (or communism, but that results in whipping workers) in order to pursue the only method of victory our civ can accomplish: domination and conquest.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

It will have to be conquest as long as Persia is standing. What do we do while we wait for our UU? Let's switch to Democracy for awhile and then become warmongers again(if that's what everyone wants).

We only have about 25% of the world right now if we are lucky. At the least, going through a short phase of Democracy will put in better standing for our domination efforts. At most, it will allow us toattain the victory we have the best chance of winning: the Histograph.

Let's play the whole story out........

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
donsig, will we be allowed a domination victory if we work our way down to the Persians? In other words, if we take our allotted 75% and Persia has the other 25% --- can we win by domination?

We don't have to win by domination. Conquest will do. All we have to do to avoid domination is raze cities. Hey, we can practice on the Babylonians!

Switching to democracy and then switching out of democracy gives us two periods of anarchy and will also seem unsatisfactory I think. Why don't we discuss the benefits of making a permanent switch to a republic? As for our cavalry butting heads against riflemen and infantry there is a simplbe solution: cannon and artillery.

As for a histograph victory, way too long...

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Does anyone have the time to figure out how much trade (made by laborers) we will gain with democracy? it should be pretty simple (work out the number of trade producing tiles), however, I have often found myself lowering my science rate when I initially switch to democracy. I suddenly find myself quickly building five banks, and a marketplace in any city producing 2 gold per turn (we've got adam simith's, so it ends up profit)
I have to sacrifice a huge slice of my food production to make up for the lost income.

so where did my money go?

First answer - obviously, the military. if we have more military then laborers producing the extra trade, that Immediately sucks up all of my trade bonus. To combat this I usually place only two veteran defenders in the border cities, and one in all the others, with about 8 defenders that can be shuffled around cites. Without railroad, those 8 turn in to 16, spread around the map, and the border cities get 3 defenders. on harder levels, all cities get yet another city.

still, that is an average of around 3-4 units per city, which is 3-4 gold lost per city.

Second answer - unhappiness. with out military happiness, I often have to raise the lux rate, or get entertainers. All my cites, without their happiness raising marketplaces yet, lose production, growth, and some commerce, to entertainers, or alternitavely to a lux rate increase.

then during war weariness, the luxury rate goes up a few more notches. The science rate drops massively because we need more money for my swelling armies, now growing from 3 to more than 12 tanks per turn (depending on map size), and more luxuries for our unruly people.

There is nothing worse than the citizens in a civ game FORCING you to let your enemies get away. Even worse when that sinks youre chances of conquest - you've run out of time, and youre enemy has rebuilt. (EDIT - What a contradiction I have made in this paragraph!)

Only go democracy when we work these things out!

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Some more benefits of Democracy:

1. Workers are 50% more efficient.
2. Major drop in corruption should help our 1 production/commerce cities.

If we decide to go this route, any war we enter before we discover Motorized Transportation should have clear, quick objectives(i.e. taking the two Russian cities near Kyoto). That way, we can get out before war weariness sets in.

And let's face it, the only way we have any chance of competing in the tech race is to enjoy the extra commerce that Democracy provides. Otherwise, we will have to shell out all of our hard-earned gold to the least shrewd of our neighbors every time we want a tech. We don't want to be the last ones on the block with tanks, do we?

Oh, well....everyone loves a comeback story. Hopefully our late-arriving Panzers can make up for the opportunities we squander now.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
And let's face it, the only way we have any chance of competing in the tech race is to enjoy the extra commerce that Democracy provides. Otherwise, we will have to shell out all of our hard-earned gold to the least shrewd of our neighbors every time we want a tech. We don't want to be the last ones on the block with tanks, do we?

A wise man once said, "Build more units sire and we will take what we want!"

Democracy will surely limit our chances of doing this. I also fear the switch to democracy will be a one way street - there will be no turning back from it once we have it. Can we not consider a less extremist form of government? If our monarchy is unsuitable then can we not try a republic? We need a government that will allow us to continue our warlike activities. Let us not forget that we did not start the wars against India and Babylon. We were attacked. We will be attacked again no matter what our government is so we'd best continue on with a government that is able to conduct wars. And it is about time we started choosing our enemies again!

 

[Octavian X]

I have to disagree with donsig - I feel we are at a prime time to switch to a democracy, or at the very least the a republic. We will inevitably need to enter a stage where we focus on infastructure.

We should seriously consider leaving our old monarchy in the dust when our current state of war with Babylon and Persia end.

 

[donsig]

We're at war with Persia again?!?

I think switching to a republic soon is an excellent idea.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

Yep, I've won pretty much all of my gam . . . er, scholarly historical simulations . . . as a Republic. Democracy always seemed a kind of luxury.

Feodor
(Studying the solid gold miniature soldiers decorating the ornate fireplace lintel at the Guildkeeper's Club.)

 

[Cheetah]

Democracy or at least Republic would be the best governments for now.

 

[Shaitan]

There's really no such thing as a temporary switch to a different government form. We would need to be in Democracy for a LOOOOOONG time to make up for the absolute minimum of 8 completely lost turns of production. The actual time will more likely be 10 to 12 turns.

So, look on a switch to Democracy as an intended permanent switch. This goes against our longstanding acknowledged and polled goal of a warlike people destined to world domination. We will not be able to maintain wartime morale in a Democracy.

Republic is a bit easier than Democracy but even that really isn't suited to our goals. We are already in the perfect government for our purposes.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I have posted an informational poll regarding our switch to Democracy. Obviously, there is still much to discuss but please make your voice heard.

When Should We Enter Democracy?

 

[Feodor Ardent]

There's really no such thing as a temporary switch to a different government form. We would need to be in Democracy for a LOOOOOONG time to make up for the absolute minimum of 8 completely lost turns of production. The actual time will more likely be 10 to 12 turns.

No kidding? I've never seen a range of more than 4 to 6 for a transformation. But then, I've never gone from Monarchy to Democracy in one shot. I generally go from Despotism to Republic and tough it out from there.

This game is SO educational . . .

 

[Shaitan]

@Feodor 10-12 turns is for two sessions of anarchy. One to democracy and one out of it. My point was don't consider a "temporary" switch as it takes an enormous amount of time to recoup the losses from two bouts of anarchy.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

@Feodor 10-12 turns is for two sessions of anarchy. One to democracy and one out of it. My point was don't consider a "temporary" switch as it takes an enormous amount of time to recoup the losses from two bouts of anarchy.

Then we should definitely go there and stay there . . .

Once I get ahead in tech, the need to stay ahead usually keeps me from making any more changes. Which is why I usually don't go to Democracy from Republic. Opinions on that may vary.

 

[Octavian X]

I think we can all agree we need to leave this backward monarchy. As soon as the arena of world affairs calms down, we should definetly overthrow the queen (that sounds bad ) and install a Prime Minister.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

I think we can all agree we need to leave this backward monarchy. As soon as the arena of world affairs calms down, we should definetly overthrow the queen (that sounds bad ) and install a Prime Minister.

I'd like to think so, Your Excellency, but the militarists/monarchists seem to be well ahead in the polling. The Democrats and Republicans need to get the vote out.