When to switch governments?

[Aabraxan]

I've been switching to republic as soon as I can, on the following theory: The sooner I can get through anarchy, the less I lose. However, my current game (C3C, monarch, continents, Iroquois) has got me to thinking that maybe I'm switching too early.

When do you make the switch?

 

[Tomoyo]

Usually as early as possible.

Exceptions are to get through a war, to finish a wonder, or if my empire has too many small cities, too many units, and not enough roads or marketplaces (though I've been ignoring the marketplace thing lately).

 

[Aabraxan]

I think I've been in the "too many small cities and too many units" category. At the time of the switch, I invariably lose gpt, and hve to disband some units. I took a look at Monarchy in CAII just for fun. In the very early middle ages (just about to get knights), Republic put me at +7 gpt, while Monarchy would have put me at +50 gpt!

 

[thetrooper]

As Tomoyo said usually as soon as possible.

 

[Tomoyo]

I think I've been in the "too many small cities and too many units" category. At the time of the switch, I invariably lose gpt, and hve to disband some units. I took a look at Monarchy in CAII just for fun. In the very early middle ages (just about to get knights), Republic put me at +7 gpt, while Monarchy would have put me at +50 gpt!

Usually those extra units are regular warriors, so I disband them anyway because there's no MP in republic.

 

[Ringo Kid]

Lately I have been switiching to Republic as early as possible. Then I stop whatever war is going on, disband troops to build up my infrastructure, plant some new towns here and there while pointing research to Communism, then switching to that govt. asap so I can war and build at the same time.

 

[Aabraxan]

Well, maybe I'm not switching too early. By the time I looked at CAII, though, I was well past the switch and probably didn't have any regular warriors left. They'd either been disbanded or converted to swords. The 43 gpt difference certainly caught my attention, though.

 

[Norton II]

Well, maybe I'm not switching too early. By the time I looked at CAII, though, I was well past the switch and probably didn't have any regular warriors left. They'd either been disbanded or converted to swords. The 43 gpt difference certainly caught my attention, though.

Be sure to compare the total income and science figures as well. The difference in these numbers between monarchy and republic should become even more pronounced once your cities have grown and you've got a few markets. Another thing that helps you get over the early republic hurdle is a GA, and since you're playing the Iros, you'll probably be having one of those soon anyway.

 

[Aabraxan]

I didn't look at science, just a quick glance at the net gpt, but I'll go investigate some more.

GA? Ummm . . . already had that.

 

[Norton II]

Not in despotism, I hope. That's the only problem with the MW; an early AI sneak attack can reult in an unwanted despotic GA. Of course, you can always avoid building MWs until you're out of despotism.

 

[Aabraxan]

I'm pretty sure I was out of despotism.

 

[archimandrite]

Be sure to compare the total income and science figures as well. The difference in these numbers between monarchy and republic should become even more pronounced once your cities have grown and you've got a few markets. Another thing that helps you get over the early republic hurdle is a GA, and since you're playing the Iros, you'll probably be having one of those soon anyway.

Yes, what I found is that the "turns to complete" for the next discovery often reduces somewhat after the change. So that's something else to keep an eye on. To bring it back to what it would have been naturally involves slacking the science slider which in turn boosts saved income so that the apparent losses go away. This can always be used as a short-term measure should any difficulties be experienced. After all, I'm then no worse off than before. Anyhow, I likewise nowadays go for Republic as soon as I possibly can. Analysis after analysis posted here--and I've read many of them by now--make the need for that pretty clear.

 

[Abegweit]

From CAII, the key value is Net Gpt.

Net Gpt = Income - (Corruption + Maintenance + Unit Costs)

Compare what you get from Despo with what you get from Republic. Remember to factor out any units you will be disbanding. If Republic is close to Despo, it is time to switch. The faster you are growing, the greater difference at which it makes sense to switch.

In my experience, a difference of about 20gpt is the right moment. E.g, if Republic is less than 20gpt behind Despo, it is time to revolt (ignoring tactical factors like wars and wonders). Because it will grow faster, Republic will quickly make up the deficit.

 

[Aabraxan]

Thanks for all of the information, everyone.

I started a new game, (monarch, Romans, continents), and beelined Republic. I've been waiting for Republic to get close to your magic number of 20, Abegweit, but it feels like it's taking forever. I did the republic slingshot first and have been trading for the other necessary techs. The only way I get even close to hitting that number is by dropping the science slider down from about 70% to 0%, which of course means I'd have less science.

 

[Abegweit]

I started a new game, (monarch, Romans, continents), and beelined Republic. I've been waiting for Republic to get close to your magic number of 20, Abegweit, but it feels like it's taking forever. I did the republic slingshot first and have been trading for the other necessary techs. The only way I get even close to hitting that number is by dropping the science slider down from about 70% to 0%, which of course means I'd have less science.

I think you misunderstood me. The position of the science slider is not relevant, as the sliders merely choose the percentage of your money that you devote to science, luxes and taxes. If you've been counting science, no wonder you have to set the slider to zero

In contrast with science, the position of the lux slider is occasionally relevant as you may have to spend more on luxes in Republic than Despo. This would be the case if you have large cities, few luxuries and several MPs. This situation is unusual but it can happen. Unfortunately there is no way to extract this infomation from CAII so you just have work it out yourself.

Generally this rule will be satisfied as soon as you reach Republic, which is why most people have been saying you should do it immediately. It simply covers the cases where you have unusually heavy unit costs (due to wars and/or a massive worker force).

 

[Cuatemoc]

I prefer to switch very early.

 

[LowEndUser]

I've been switching to republic as soon as I can, on the following theory: The sooner I can get through anarchy, the less I lose. However, my current game (C3C, monarch, continents, Iroquois) has got me to thinking that maybe I'm switching too early.

When do you make the switch?

I`m curious What type of Game Win are you aiming for ? on what level and what size Map ?? I think all those play a big role in Govt. Selection.

IMHO, the Republic is highly overrated in Civ #3 ( even if your Mr. Nice Guy ) since it`s much nerfed from Civ 2, where in it was what you aimed for..... I really don`t understand people preference for it in Civ. 3, unless they are going for a Space Race or Culture Win and even then.....

It seems very difficult to fight an extended war in it, even if your the defender, since your Cities are going into Civil Disorder usually in 5-7 turns ,and unit costs are huge. If a ** large** AI Civ really goes after you, and one will if your near the top /or late in Game, IMHO you don`t want to be in Republic.

Also, IMO the less " Govt. Switching" in general you have to do the Better, catch one of those 5-7 turn "Anarchy " periods while changing Govts. in mid/late Game and you are screwed and will Never Ever catch up to the leader or even recover.

 

[Aabraxan]

@ Abegweit:
Maybe I did misunderstand. I'm looking at the "Economy" tab, upper right corner.

If I have it in Despo, I get 62 income from cities, and no other income. For expenses at 60% science & 0% lux, I get 31 science, 11 corruption, 12 maintenance, 7 unit costs. It says Income 62, Expenses 61 for a Net gain of 1 gpt.

If I switch CA2 to Republic, I get 101 income from cities. Expenses @ 60% science, 0% lux = 53 science, 13 corruption, 12 maintenance, and 74 unit costs. Summary: 101 income, 152 expenses, for a net loss of 51.

Should I not be reading the net gain/loss that CA2 is stating? Should I just be looking strictly at income vs corruption, ignoring maintenance and unit costs? (IOW, Despo = 62-11-7=44 net gain and Republic = 101-13-74=14 net gain). Under that match, I guess I could make the switch now, unless I'm about to complete a wonder or go to war.

@LowEndUser
Conquest, Standard maps, Monarch. I don't know if what I've done could be called "extended wars," but I've been able to warmonger relatively well in Republic. I try not to be the defender.

And the gov't switching issue is precisely why I started this thread. I'm trying to learn to time it right. It turns out that I've been switching pretty much when everyone else does -- as early as possible.

 

[archimandrite]

@ Abegweit:
Maybe I did misunderstand. I'm looking at the "Economy" tab, upper right corner.

If I have it in Despo, I get 62 income from cities, and no other income. For expenses at 60% science & 0% lux, I get 31 science, 11 corruption, 12 maintenance, 7 unit costs. It says Income 62, Expenses 61 for a Net gain of 1 gpt.

If I switch CA2 to Republic, I get 101 income from cities. Expenses @ 60% science, 0% lux = 53 science, 13 corruption, 12 maintenance, and 74 unit costs. Summary: 101 income, 152 expenses, for a net loss of 51.

Should I not be reading the net gain/loss that CA2 is stating? Should I just be looking strictly at income vs corruption, ignoring maintenance and unit costs? (IOW, Despo = 62-11-7=44 net gain and Republic = 101-13-74=14 net gain). Under that match, I guess I could make the switch now, unless I'm about to complete a wonder or go to war.

Well, he said use "Net Gpt = Income - (Corruption + Maintenance + Unit Costs)". That excludes science. So you do have a potential saving of 22 there if you set the science slider downwards so that the expenditure is about the same as before, ie 31. (That's what I meant above.) The next thing is to look at units, ie whether some of those warriors or whatever will be surplus to requirements once you make the switch.

My feeling here is that your unit costs of 7 even in despotism is rather higher than I would usually permit myself. Depending on the number of cities you have, I'd estimate you've 7-14 more units than you might perhaps need.

That would justify the switch, I think.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I always switch, as soon as I get republic, unless I'm a turn or two from a wonder in a 20K game. Getting out of despotism is vital. I just make sure my guys are working high commerce tiles - roaded rivers, gold, luxuries.

I don't much care if at first I lose income,because I do not want to switch twice and I don't want the despotism penalties that kill growth. If I have to, I just road and irrigate everything.

It's a pain on higher levels if you don't get many luxes, but that's what temples,caths and colloseums are for, anyway. And specialists.