When to whip?

[Montymolethedog]

I always adopt Slavery in the early game, but find that I only end up using it in absolute emergencies (someone declares war on me and I need to quickly create a defence), but others in this forum seem to use it more liberally.
Could somebody please explain to me when and how to whip properly?

 

[InovA]

I would say to whip almost always, at least early on. The only penalty is the stackable -1 happiness for 10 turns, so as long as I have a city with 3 or more population, I'll whip anything I can. Also try to whip for multiple population (30 hammers per whip, so if 31-60 hammers away 2 pop will be sacrificed but still only -1 happiness for 10 turns. Those numbeb is for normal speed, with 0% production bonus.)

The minus happiness stacks such that the duration is increased by 10 turns per whipping and -1 happiness per 10 turns left in the duration (plus 1).

Try to control each of your cities' populations to stay around 2 to 4 early on, you expand much more quickly and get a good feel for how useful the food sources are, the granary is, and when cities in the midgame should whip.

Just know that only half of your city's pop can be whipped at a time and that there is a 50% production penalty if you have zero turns invested into a project and another 50% production penalty for whipping world wonders. So chopping > whipping for world wonders, and wait at least 1 turn after starting something before whipping it.

Whip a lot in the early game, especially if your city is ever working tiles that haven't been improved yet.

I stop whipping so much when a city needs to raise its pop in order to work some strong tiles or if I want to run some city specialists. This usually isn't until ~6+ cities are set up and 500 BC is around. But even then, I really just raise the threshold from 2-5 pop per city to 3-7 pop. As you focus more on tech and less on army and expansion, whipping will be less prevalent until you finally got that war tech you were waiting on, then drafts/whips for dayzzz to go to war.

A good guide can be found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193659

Also consider looking through NihilZero's comment in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=419635

 

[elitetroops]

Pretty much what InovA said, except that the capital I'd stop whipping and start growing earlier. It's okay to whip the capital a couple of times early for settlers/workers/granary, but once you start having cottages up around it, have second and third city up and have the ability to raise your happy cap, you can start growing the capital in preparation for bureaucracy.

You shouldn't whip out population that can work strong tiles (most resources), but any pop working any resourceless plains tile early (hill or flatland, improved or not) is contributing more to your empire by being whipped than by working that tile.

 

[elmurcis]

On Huge size map (with more land to take) whip is very important source of production actually If I have place for ~12+ cities (most games with my settings I do... even with 17 AI, Archip maps offer many city places to expand, low production but high food --> designed for whip), I can't take it fast enough usual way. So also capital will get atleast 2 2-pop and 1 3-pop settler whips (1st overflow into wonder, 2nd overflow into Granary, 3rd overflow... whatever) on 1st expansion wave.
Whip also can help to save money before going into war (unit maintence). I just make some calculations how many hammers I have to invest into units (prebuild) before I whip. So I will need just 2 little prebuilt units and 3rd to build from overflow. I whip 1st (finish), overflow into 3rd (not yet finished), next turn whip 2nd (finish), overflow into 3rd (now finish). If I do it in all cities around same time and logistic is almost "perfect" (cities near enemy whip 1-2-3 turns later.. as necessary) I can get huge army out in very short time paying small extra unit maintence before actual war begins. Yes, I get 2x time of unhapinness but.. cities will take time to regrow (while I'm busy with war) and new units will come from new cities anyway

 

[Izuul]

Could somebody please explain to me when and how to whip properly?

That's a massive topic because whipping is soooo good and there are so many tricks and so many ways to use it. I'll try to list a few though.

Whip to avoid growing into numerous unhappy citizens. I know this seems counter-intuitive because whipping adds +1 unhappiness for 10 turns, but the +1 is a flat penalty that does not change regardless of whether 1 population is whipped away or 6. Using large whips (like 3 pop +) can be a very effective way to prevent a city from growing onto multiple unhappy citizens while also providing lots of production.

Whip away population that is working unimproved and/or weak tiles. For example, if you have a size 6 city working 3 good tiles and 3 unimproved forests (or worse), it's typically much more effective to whip away those 3 citizens for the hammer boost.

Whip liberally in cities that have food but very little production. This can be pretty common with coastal cities. You may have to manage the unhappiness a little bit, but remember that building workers/settlers can be a good way to use your food cities for production while some of their whip unhappiness burns off.

Whip workers and, especially, settlers at the correct time to provide large hammer overflow that can be used to build units or buildings. The most classic example is 3-pop whipping a settler at 39/100 hammers (or as close to 39 as possible without going over). This can easily provide ~40 overflow hammers that can be used to help build a wonder or an important building. This is particularly strong early in the game and is often done in the capitol in the early turns.

Whip aggressively when reaching a key military tech that you want to attack with. There are other ways to get an army built very fast (mass upgrades in particular), but it is important when going for any kind of rush or breakout to get your army built as quickly as possible to make the most of your limited window of opportunity.

 

[Pangaea]

I'd be a little careful with whipping in the very early game, because you have a low happiness limit, but once you get some happy, especially after Calendar, you can really go to town. Whip till your hand start hurtin' I prefer to keep the capital intact, though. Like elite says, it's better to grow it and work cottages, because that pays back handily when you have Buro.

An eye-opener if you haven't done it yet, on the power of whipping, is to play a Cuirs game where you whip all cities (except capital, and probably NE/HE spots) when they can and stomp one AI after the other. You'll quickly have more horsies than you can handle, and can wage war on several AIs at the same time, in different directions. One of the reasons why Cuirs war is so popular.

 

[Rusten]

I'd be a little careful with whipping in the very early game, because you have a low happiness limit, but once you get some happy, especially after Calendar, you can really go to town. Whip till your hand start hurtin' I prefer to keep the capital intact, though. Like elite says, it's better to grow it and work cottages, because that pays back handily when you have Buro.

IDK, for me it's the opposite. Like Izuul mentioned, I whip a lot in the very early game because I have a low happiness limit. Once I get some happy (HR+luxuries) I want my cities to reach their caps and if that's at 10+ size then whipping is much less effective.

Some cities only have a few good tiles though, in which case you can whip them all game and not worry about it.

 

[lymond]

yeah, have to kinda disagree with Pangaea on that one....although I believe his meaning is not exactly what he intended.

 

[Pangaea]

Don't get me wrong, I whip in the early game too. I think you confuse my meaning, like often happens on the interwebs. I still whip in the early game, you kinda have to, but I'm not whipping more or less non-stop, as the happyness simply does not allow that, particularly if you start without something like ivory, furs, gems, silver or gold.

 

[MegaLurker]

Stacking whip anger in the early game is definitely not great, with a major exception. If you're settling cities faster than you can improve tiles for them - as you often will on higher difficulties just to secure enough land - it makes sense to whip them mercilessly for a while. By the time those cities can make efficient use of that extra population the anger will be gone or at least back down to just -1. Like this a city with just one improved food special can be quite productive while your precious worker turns are spent elsewhere.

 

[Bibor]

2 or more anger whips (for 20 or more turns on normal speed):
- High food/low production cities with early luxury resources connected
- Emergency defence (walls, archers, that sort of thing)
- Serious war prep (catapults, elephants, trebuchets, cuirasses, cavalry)

Regular whips (1 every 10 or more turns) I use whenever I'm about to reach a health/happiness cap OR when I'm whipping in essentials. I whip in essentials regardless of the health/happy cap.

The importance of surplus food cannot be overstated. It enables time-compression by granting ridiculous amounts of production for trivial amounts of surplus food, almost instantly!

 

[6K Man]

It would almost be better to ask “When not to whip?” Generally speaking, you should try to avoid whipping

1. Improved tiles in a Bureaucracy capital
2. Things other than Granaries, if you don’t have a granary and could build one
3. Cities with little or no food surplus, working all improved tiles (especially if they’re working things like plains hill gold/silver)
4. (Redacted)
5. 1-pop whips when you are at happy cap
6. Large, developed cities (>size 10)
7. Wonders
8. Nonessential city improvements (things other than Granary, Forge, Library – unless you’re whipping away population working unimproved tiles)

Always whip:

1. Captured cities with significant war weariness/motherland unhappiness
2. Unhappy cities (but always 1 more population than there are unhappy people)
3. Cities with granaries
4. When you are Aztec or have the Kremlin (or both )
5. Size 6-7 cities with food
6. Cities with lots of brown (plains, desert, tundra) tiles

 

[Bibor]

It would almost be better to ask “When not to whip?” Generally speaking, you should try to avoid whipping

7. Wonders

I don't think whipping wonders is a bad idea at all, especially the critical ones (i.e. the ones you really want). The game won't let you whip them w/o industrious/resource anyway, because the pop. req. is too high.

 

[Pangaea]

It would almost be better to ask “When not to whip?” Generally speaking, you should try to avoid whipping
4. Prior to Mathematics

Can be a good idea to preserve forests until you have Math, but whipping has no effect. You get the full benefit with or without Math. If anything, it makes whipping pre-Math even more (comparatively) powerful.

 

[elmurcis]

I don't think whipping wonders is a bad idea at all, especially the critical ones (i.e. the ones you really want). The game won't let you whip them w/o industrious/resource anyway, because the pop. req. is too high.

Direct whip of wonder is too expensive. I always use 2-pop other stuff whip with max overflow into wonder. If I need I might repeat it. And than even do 1 more 1-pop whip. Sometimes has to do that with GLH on Deity-Archip map when not enough forests to chop. because this is wonder I need here and I can lose it really early. So its like 6->4 (overflow 90+base prod); 4->2 (90 more); workboat 2->1 (31-40 more). Will need some time to regrow but who cares? this wonder will work until non-Space win

 

[MegaLurker]

Direct whip of wonder is too expensive. I always use 2-pop other stuff whip with max overflow into wonder. If I need I might repeat it. And than even do 1 more 1-pop whip. Sometimes has to do that with GLH on Deity-Archip map when not enough forests to chop. because this is wonder I need here and I can lose it really early. So its like 6->4 (overflow 90+base prod); 4->2 (90 more); workboat 2->1 (31-40 more). Will need some time to regrow but who cares? this wonder will work until non-Space win

The penalty on whipping wonders is not great, but often having a few turns off the end is worth it. Consider the cost of that penalty vs. the cost of losing a very important wonder with just a handful of turns left, especially if your overall strategy relies on it.

Great Wall, Oracle, 'Mids, Sistine Chapel if you're going for culture. All of those I would whip to save even just a single turn to be safe.

 

[6K Man]

Can be a good idea to preserve forests until you have Math, but whipping has no effect. You get the full benefit with or without Math. If anything, it makes whipping pre-Math even more (comparatively) powerful.

Ugh. Brain cramp on my part. Good catch.

 

[Bibor]

The penalty on whipping wonders is not great, but often having a few turns off the end is worth it.

Exactly. It's definitely not efficient, but whipping is not about efficiency. After all, whipping is only population loss.

 

[Kesto11]

Thank you everyone for the insight. I have only been playing Civ4 a few weeks (started on Civ3 for a week or two to grasp the basics) and it is amazing how intricate this game is in the details.

I have done a lot of reloading and some world builder manipulation to help my novice self be successful, so me saying I am playing on Emperor doesn't carry much weight other than experimentation and learning purposes. After all, our goal is to play successfully on the highest level, and that takes a lot of experimentation, studying, and time.

Over the past several hours of reading up more on higher-level strategy, it seems that excellent whipping (and chopping) is essentially the key to building a solid early starting game on higher difficulties.