When will they come out with ACII?

[Diviner]

the electronic arts will never be able to create a creative playable game, if AC2 comes out i fear it will be a stupid video game or something similar like most of those crappy EA games.

 

[beetle]

Take a look at James Hogan's Giants series.

Thanks! Previously I had only the vaguest recommendations for this series (no title, no author’s name). I went out this morning and purchased The Two Moons at Borders. I got in and out despite the HP7 nonsense!

Tech advances can increase productivity, increase speed. communications abiltity.

It is hard to reconcile our absurd pace of technology advances with a game setting that spans centuries. We seem to facing The Death of Science Fiction. SMAC is clever in how the setting circumvented and embraced the enigma.

Look, you can hope for SMAC2, but for the issues of copyright mentioned (that Sid Meier's company does not own the copyright to SMAC), I personally don't think SMAC2 is the way to go.

Easy money may be enough for EA and Firaxis to come to terms. If not, the extensibility of Civ4 and demonstrated ingenuity of some fan work (notably Fall from Heaven) gives me hope. But before that can happen, we need to make a hard nosed look at what makes SMAC so much better than Civ4!

 

[vyeh]

I went out this morning and purchased The Two Moons at Borders. I got in and out despite the HP7 nonsense!

Let me know how you enjoy it. What is HP7?

It is hard to reconcile our absurd pace of technology advances with a game setting that spans centuries. We seem to facing The Death of Science Fiction. SMAC is clever in how the setting circumvented and embraced the enigma.

In the article you referenced, there is a quote: "The greatest area of growth has been gaming." The article actually supports the idea of a game setting that spans centuries. It says that we can't continue to have an absurd pace of technology advances.

Easy money may be enough for EA and Firaxis to come to terms.

There isn't much money in AC. Despite tie-ins and web promotions, I think the game barely broke even. Someone who knows more on this subject, please feel free to correct me.

 

[beetle]

Let me know how you enjoy it. What is HP7?

It is great so far, but I only got a few chapters in. I put it down to read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (HP7). I feel so ashamed!

The article actually supports the idea of a game setting that spans centuries. It says that we can’t continue to have an absurd pace of technology advances.

You have a point there. As you wrote before:

Tech advances can increase productivity, increase speed. communications ability.

So maybe advances can be relatively straightforward. But with both Civ and SMAC, units go from a strength of 1 (at the beginning of the game) to 25+ at the end. That sort of extreme just seems unbalanced and unrealistic for a space opera (even one spanning centuries) without the conceit of a setting like Planet.

There isn’t much money in AC. Despite tie-ins and web promotions, I think the game barely broke even.

I don’t know about that. It kept the hearth fires burning in the long drought between Civ2 and Civ3 and was regarded by most everyone as Civ 2.5. My impression (based on no hard facts whatsoever ) is that the majority of people who purchased Civ2 purchased SMAC — but found the game just a little too complicated, or the genre not to their liking. (Then, all those people, plus those that liked SMAX, plus everyone who listened to both groups rave over the years, bought Civ3.) Plainly SMAC was not as commercially successful as Civ3, but I think it met the developer’s expectations. (There would not have been SMAX if SMAC didn’t sell well enough. SMAX sales, on the other hand, might have been disappointing — but I bet it was relatively inexpensive to produce. EA certainly lost interest at that point.)

I am convinced that Civ3 was only a commercial success because: (1) so many people bought it sight unseen; and (2) the CFC GOTM turned the proverbial sow’s ear into a silk purse. If there is a game branded as “Alpha Centauri,” I would expect it to appear as a Civ4 module.

 

[beetle]

It's dumb in the way it attacks.

A prime example of this is that the AI will end a rover’s turn next to cities rather than not using up all the movement points and ending the turn early — so as to be able to move and attack on the same (but next) turn. (But as I wrote before, I am always grateful for the opportunity to defend myself a little!) I do not think that I would classify this as a bug though. I have not played them much, but the tactics used by the AI in Civ3 and Civ4 do not seem significantly improved.

Is there a setting that tells the AI not to build cities so that production squares are overlapped? This behavior always annoyed me. (This is a flaw that continues with Civ3 and Civ4.)

 

[Phlegmak]

When will they come out with ACII?

Never.

However, you can put your efforts into making a new Alpha Centauri here:

http://freecivac.sourceforge.net/

 

[vyeh]

So maybe advances can be relatively straightforward. But with both Civ and SMAC, units go from a strength of 1 (at the beginning of the game) to 25+ at the end. That sort of extreme just seems unbalanced and unrealistic for a space opera (even one spanning centuries) without the conceit of a setting like Planet.

You're settling the Milky Way. You've going from some sort of STL technology at the beginning to FTL at the end.

I don’t know about that. It kept the hearth fires burning in the long drought between Civ2 and Civ3 and was regarded by most everyone as Civ 2.5. My impression (based on no hard facts whatsoever ) is that the majority of people who purchased Civ2 purchased SMAC — but found the game just a little too complicated, or the genre not to their liking. (Then, all those people, plus those that liked SMAX, plus everyone who listened to both groups rave over the years, bought Civ3.) Plainly SMAC was not as commercially successful as Civ3, but I think it met the developer’s expectations. (There would not have been SMAX if SMAC didn’t sell well enough. SMAX sales, on the other hand, might have been disappointing — but I bet it was relatively inexpensive to produce. EA certainly lost interest at that point.)

There was an interview some months back where Brian Reynolds was interviewed. He suggested that it would have been better to have put more money into SP rather than MP because MP was such a small part of the market.

Saying that SMAX was inexpensive to produce is suggesting something negative about the money that went into it.

I am convinced that Civ3 was only a commercial success because: (1) so many people bought it sight unseen; and (2) the CFC GOTM turned the proverbial sow’s ear into a silk purse. If there is a game branded as “Alpha Centauri,” I would expect it to appear as a Civ4 module.

I don't know much about Civ 3, other than that it was a disappointment to many. (There are still those of us that consider Civ 2 the highpoint of the Civ series.)

OTOH, Civ 4 has been a commercial success.

Some of us think that is because it has been "dumbed" down.

 

[beetle]

You're settling the Milky Way. You've going from some sort of STL technology at the beginning to FTL at the end.

It is the FTL that is a stumbling point for hard sci fi. I look forward to seeing how James Hogan handles that. (I finished with HP7 last night, so there’s one less distraction.)

There was an interview some months back where Brian Reynolds was interviewed. He suggested that it would have been better to have put more money into SP rather than MP because MP was such a small part of the market.

Yes, here.

I think On my own team’s next product, Alpha Centauri, we also put multiplayer in at great expense of time and energy, but I really don’t think it did much for the ultimate success of the product, and if I had it to do over again I’d have spent all of that time making the solo play a lot better.

It is fun to contemplate what more he would have done!

Saying that SMAX was inexpensive to produce is suggesting something negative about the money that went into it.

I meant no insult! I am speculating only as compared to the cost of developing SMAC. SMAX adds a lot to the game, and the prices asked on eBay confirm its value. Sales must have been disappointing (at least for SMAX) or the discs would not be so rare.

I don't know much about Civ 3, other than that it was a disappointment to many.

I was one of the dissappointed. Yet it did well enough for Firaxis to go on to Civ4. Go figure.

There are still those of us that consider Civ 2 the highpoint of the Civ series.

I still miss those movies! Yes, it was a great game which I remember fondly. Was it ever Carbonized? I think I would love to play it again. It has more appeal to me than Civ3 or Civ4! Still, I think I enjoyed SMAC/X more, but there is nothing like one’s first addiction!

OTOH, Civ 4 has been a commercial success. Some of us think that is because it has been "dumbed" down.

Could be. The setting is very approachable for casual gamers. And there is all that eye candy. It is nice how extensible it seems to be. But I wish it were less flawed and borrowed more from the SMAC play elements. I honestly don’t see the point of playing it more than once or twice. I think it is the fan base and their free labor creating scenarios that keeps the franchise afloat.

 

[beetle]

Let me know how you enjoy it.

I just finished the Inherit the Stars half today. I quite enjoyed it! The pseudo science was mostly good enough that I did not find it distracting.

Spoiler :

One thing I do not understand is how a 50K year old predecessor would be indentical to modern man. Has there not been evolutionary evidence in that time? I mean, there has been noticible change since just the middle ages!

The wikipedia article mentions:

the resolution of the mystery is impossible in real life on astrophysical grounds.

Spoiler :

I guess that refers to the moon being a captured satellite. However improbable the whole setup seems to me, I do not know enought details as to spot why the physics are impossible.

The first book only hints at FTL drives, so I am curious to see where Hogan goes with that. It is quite convenient for me that these books are being reissued just as as I come to read them!

 

[vyeh]

I just finished the Inherit the Stars half today. I quite enjoyed it! The pseudo science was mostly good enough that I did not find it distracting.

One thing I do not understand is how a 50K year old predecessor would be indentical to modern man. Has there not been evolutionary evidence in that time? I mean, there has been noticible change since just the middle ages!

Glad you enjoyed it.

Uh, no, there hasn't been ANY evolutionary change since the middle ages. Technological change is not evolutionary change. We may live longer, but that is due to medicine, not evolutionary advancement.

 

[beetle]

Glad you enjoyed it.

THanks for the recommendation.

Uh, no, there hasn't been ANY evolutionary change since the middle ages.

I do not mean a different species but there are significant morphological changes in just a few hundred years. (Ever been to a museum, looked at armor, and pondered how short the average knight was?) Going back a little further, it is not just his hair style and clothes that differentiated Lindow Man from us. Now multiply those changes by a factor of 25x: Charlie should be quite distinct, even as he was conclusively Homo Sapien.

 

[vyeh]

THanks for the recommendation.

You're welcome.

I do not mean a different species but there are significant morphological changes in just a few hundred years. (Ever been to a museum, looked at armor, and pondered how short the average knight was?) Going back a little further, it is not just his hair style and clothes that differentiated Lindow Man from us. Now multiply those changes by a factor of 25x: Charlie should be quite distinct, even as he was conclusively Homo Sapien.

We are taller because of better nutrition.

Charlie had access to good nutrition.

You can see this difference in America. Where someone has come from a background of poor nutrition, their kids are taller than them.

Those who came from a background of good nutrition (they were born to the middle class in America) are the same height as their kids.

Obviously, I am speaking statistically.

Re ACII:

If you look in the alpha.txt or alphax.txt files, you can see some remnants of game design that were taken out.

There is a column for psi in addition to nutrients, minerals and energy. If you could produce psi, what would it do in terms of game design? Would it fold into your planet rating?

There is also a mention of distance of Chiron from Alpha Centauri. What is the effect of choosing a shorter distance? Would it affect how much energy is produced by solar collectors? Would it affect the amount of rainy and moist squares for a given amount of cloud cover?

If you're going to want ACII, it should be different from SMAX, where the programmers seemed to slap on some features on the SMAC.

 

[beetle]

We are taller because of better nutrition.

I don’t think that is all of it. We are talking 50,000 years of racial diversification. Granted, they working off a skeleton, so I am sure that blurs many of the racial traits. Charlie might have had purple skin for all we know! It would have been interesting too if they determined he died at 200+. I am just saying that part of the story didn’t add for me.

I was amused how all the main characters constantly smoked, drank at work, and had attractive female secretaries.

Re ACII:

If you look in the alpha.txt or alphax.txt files, you can see some remnants of game design that were taken out.

There is a column for psi in addition to nutrients, minerals and energy. If you could produce psi, what would it do in terms of game design? Would it fold into your planet rating?

Maybe that is some of the single player stuff Brian Reynolds say he wished he had spent more time on (from that interview article we discussed recently on another thread).

There is also a mention of distance of Chiron from Alpha Centauri. What is the effect of choosing a shorter distance? Would it affect how much energy is produced by solar collectors? Would it affect the amount of rainy and moist squares for a given amount of cloud cover?

Well, in the Customize Random Map dialog sequence there is the option for “Adjust Erosive Forces” where you pick the number of moons. So maybe that replaced distance?

If you're going to want ACII, it should be different from SMAX, where the programmers seemed to slap on some features on the SMAC.

I would be quite content if ACII was just a full-priced bug patch! Just as the main idea behind Civ 1-4 is the same, I find no compelling reason to mess with AC. They could talk the only good idea to come out of Civ3 and Civ4 (culture) and add that if they liked. The way air power works in Civ3 and Civ4 is okay, but different. Of the top of my head, all the other game mechanics are better in SMACX.

 

[The_Reckoning]

What's funny is that whenever a large game mod truly gets going, a few games are declared in the exact same vein. Look at the Napoleon mod for Medieval Total War II, and then they decide to declare Empires.

 

[The_Reckoning]

I have a hard time imagining tech advances as being important to a race that is already space faring. It is conceit in science fiction that space faring races have hit a technology plateau. I will be interested in reading peoples impressions, but I remain skeptical. SMAC2 is the way to go.

We aren't space faring?

Really, there's always more technology to discover, until we've actually unlocked the secrets of the universe.

 

[beetle]

We aren't space faring?

No, not in any meaningful sense. We have no sustainable colonies outside our native planet, let alone our solar system. Like the dinosaurs, we are one rogue comet away from extinction.

Our expectations for space exploration have been shaped by science fiction and the requisite Faster Than Light drives, but we now know FTL is impossible. This is essentially why I think technology advance will be a challenging aspect to integrate into a space opera game. (I really should go slumming over to the BTS forum since I am curious how they solve this riddle.) It has proven impossible for even the most creative Sci-Fi authors to imagine the next fifty years without FTL.

The SMAC setting was compelling because it started with near achievable science but then added (1) dramatic (but unexplained) scene-setting sabotage, and (2) an unexpected living planet. The technology is a bit fantastic, but not so much as to spoil a willing suspension of disbelief. The only thing I find distracting is the conceit of a precursor race.

Really, there's always more technology to discover, until we've actually unlocked the secrets of the universe.

Or perhaps not. The rate of technology advancement of the last few decades is unprecedented in human history, but it is unsustainable. Of course, about the turn of the last century, science was almost finished. There were only a few variables to figure out, and this troubling business about how the ether actually worked…

 

[The_Reckoning]

No, not in any meaningful sense.

But we are space faring, you'd agree?

 

[vyeh]

beetle has clarified what he means by "space faring." Does space faring mean traveling between stars (which is the meaning I would attribute), does it mean traveling between planets?

If it only means getting off the planet, then that occured with balloons. Heavier than air, the Wright brothers. There is outside the atmosphere, orbital flight, travel to the moon.

The point is that "space faring" is definitional, there is a whole spectrum from catapults to travel between the galaxies and "space faring" can meaningfully be defined as anything from orbital spaceflight to interstellar travel.

 

[beetle]

But we are space faring, you'd agree?

No, not at all! I am not sure who gets to define the term, but clearly “sea faring” implies achieving some level of sustenance and self-sufficiency while out on the ocean. We have not gotten remotely close to that when it comes to being off-planet. I would probably be comfortable with the term for traveling just in our solar system. Maybe even for a moon base or a self-sustaining orbiting platform around the earth.

 

[Yuri2356]

Marooned on a living planet is a better fit for a technology tree (as an integral part of the game play) and also provided the story line aspect.

I've always hated the living planet, and wished there was a way to devote one's faction to surviving the amakening by engaging in a systematic extermination of fungus and worms. It would certainly be more in-character for some of the factions at work in SMAC.

I have a hard time imagining tech advances as being important to a race that is already space faring. It is conceit in science fiction that space faring races have hit a technology plateau. I will be interested in reading peoples impressions, but I remain skeptical. SMAC2 is the way to go.

For gameplay purposes, one can simply have research and advancement result in opening new bonuses and facilities, and equipment which fills the same fundamental roles as previous gear, just with higher stats. (Why don't you hunt down a copy of "Master of Orion" 1 or 2 ? They provide some solid sci-fi TBS fun)

From a story/fluff perspective, advances could take the form of new applications of existing theories, the construction of industrial megaprojects, and the general expansion/refinement of all existing technologies. After all, once competition exists between spacefaring races, there will be incentive to outperform the opposition in any way possible.