Where are the Incas and the Aztecs today?

Good info in the first post, but you kinda forgot to mention that there are still some 1.5 speakers of Nahautl (the language of the Aztecs) in Mexico & Central America, as well as 8.9 million speakers of Quechuan (Incan) languages in South America.

I'd also mention there are anywhere from 5-8 million speakers of Mayan languages too still [depending partly on definition and counting method]. I have family who still speaks Kaqchikel, but my father never learned it from my grandparents so I never had the opportunity to really learn it myself unfortunately outside of a few basic phrases. Many of these languages are on the decline however in Central America and the Andes due to both globalization and population fracturing.
 
Jesus Christ, you Westerners mention nationalism or nationalists in every single post.

Only not in posts describing your own countries and your own nations.

It gives you a raging erection to call everybody from foreign cultures nationalists, am I right?

I have a task for you Traitorfish - do not mention nationalism and nationalists for 30 days since this moment.

You will become a gentleman if you do this (even if you know everything about nationalism).
Actually, it's mainly me who's using the term, not Westerners in general, and I do use it when describing my own country, thank you very much. You're just making things up again. But you're apparently unwilling to tell the difference between individuals.

As for the Inca and Aztec populations, they were never really displaced like the natives of North America in part because the conquistadors didn't bring many, if any, Spanish women with them.
 
Observation: native americans are few in North America. In Central and South America they're far more numerous.

Why is that?
Did the old world diseases do less damage to the South than the North?


The fact that Spanish/portugease colonists were something like 3:1 in favour of men might suggest the differences in population too. They had to go native.

Other reasons?


North America had really large waves of migration from Europe. Early on from the British Isles and the various German lands. Later from all of Europe. South America had smaller migrations of people, mostly from just Spain and Portugal. Though areas of Latin America also had some numbers of Asian immigrants, and then some parts had immigrants from broader parts of Europe. But never the mass waves that North America had. So in the North, whites took all the land, and Indians had less opportunity to renew their numbers.
 
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I was under the impression that Spain had sent over nearly 4 times as many colonists over to the new world [near a million] by 1700 than colonists were present in total in the British territories. Settlers came from Spain and Portugal in different waves as well, its just that the continental US was never closely as populated as the major population centers of the Americas were [even if you were to go back to Mississippian towns in the US, which conquistadors like Pardo helped finish off with disease and skirmishes]. It all boils down to there were just so many people in Central America and Peru that despite disease, it made economical sense just to utilize existing populations for the most part as basically slaves rather than push sparse populations off the land like happened in the US
 

That's like saying that "by 1492 right after Columbus set foot in the new world but right before anyone else did there were more Italians than any other Europeans in the new world.". While technically true, that's set at a point in time that render the data meaningless.

The North American colonies received most of their european immigration from 1700 onward, not before 1700. Conversedly, the North American natives suffered the most after 1700 (dispossession, war, etc), not before (though they certainly lost a lot to disease before them.)

Perhaps that more than anything is the key. The Mesoamerican got whacked all at once - disease and conquest - but afterward their situation was, if far from ideal, at least roughly stable, allowing their population to stabilizie and eventually begin to recover. The Native Americans in comparison kept being thrown back off balance by new waves of disease, new enemies, dispossession of their land, and so on and so forth.
 
Which really isn't all that different than say the settling (and continued settling of Brazil and why say the population of Brazil or Argentina is more comparable to the East Coast of the US). After 1700 immigration began to even out its true, but actually immigration was comparable to Latin American immigration
 
The North American colonies received most of their european immigration from 1700 onward, not before 1700. Conversedly, the North American natives suffered the most after 1700 (dispossession, war, etc), not before (though they certainly lost a lot to disease before them.)
Yeah, there's a brief rush in the 1630s with the "Great Migration" to New England, but the British North American population really explodes as you get into the 18th century, both because of the unusually high rate of natural increase in New England, and because you start getting these huge numbers of Germans, Scots and Scots-Irish cramming themselves onto the Eastern seaboard.

In Spanish America, European migration is substantial, but also more steady and more widely-dispersed, so even if it's numerically comparable, it never really amounts to the same thing. (Part of this is because Madrid was reluctant to let people who weren't subjects of the Crown of Castile cross the Atlantic, which until the eighteenth century excluded a substantial part of its own domains.)

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I was under the impression that Spain had sent over nearly 4 times as many colonists over to the new world [near a million] by 1700 than colonists were present in total in the British territories.
Presumably that's why a majority identify themselves as "mestizo" rather than simply indigenous in both Peru and Mexico. European migration does not straightforwardly translate into a European population after all, especially when (as Quackers pointed out) Spanish migration was so disproportionately male.

it made economical sense just to utilize existing populations for the most part as basically slaves rather than push sparse populations off the land like happened in the US
Eh, it was less "economic sense" and more "needing to eat". The Spanish were basically leeching off indigenous tribute-systems for the first generation or two after conquest, so by the time we can talk about "economic sense", we're looking an established (if far from settled) social order in which the Indian peasantry are simply the bottom rung, so expulsion or extermination wouldn't have occurred to most colonial elites any more than it would have occurred to a French nobleman to massacre all his peasants.
 
When I was doing my Salkantay hike to Machu Picchu, our guide was a Quechua. Historically speaking the Incas were a subset of the Quechua people. Our guide claimed to be a direct descendent of the Incas, which wouldn't really surprise me.

A lot of other Quechua people live in the mountains of Peru.
 
Here is an alternate history what if question for you all - What do you think the effects would have been had the Mayan theocratic state of Chan Santa Cruz managed to finish the job and take out the last Mexican/Yucateco controlled city [Merida] in the Yucatan? If Chan Santa Cruz had managed to do that, there wouldn't have been really any easy for Mexico to conquer the Yucatan as long as the Maya state had British support.

When the USSR rose, it set off a series of ideological struggles across the world and particularly in Latin America. If we had a full fledged independent indigenous state instead, do you think the kinds of revolutions in Latin America [particularly in Central America and the Andes] would have been indigenous independence movements instead of ideologically related struggles to communism? Although the independent Mayan state was conquered in the early 20th century and only lasted over half a century - because it didn't finish the job at Merida, I think it could have became the center of a pan-Indigenous movement across the Americas.
 
Most indigenous communists have historically seen their struggles in terms of indigenous independence, at least in substantial part, so I think the juxtaposition you set up is misleading. During the Cold War era, their indigenism was naturally subsumed under their socialism when presented to non-indigenous audiences, but it was always a substantial current. (Take the Zapatistas in Mexico, who transitioned fairly seamlessly from Maoism to Maya indigenism simply by shifting their emphasis.) An explicitly indigenous state may have allowed these concerns to find higher billing, but even then, it's not a given, especially if such a state was dependent on Western imperial powers and therefore comprised as a symbol of indigenous independence.
 
Here is an alternate history what if question for you all - What do you think the effects would have been had the Mayan theocratic state of Chan Santa Cruz managed to finish the job and take out the last Mexican/Yucateco controlled city [Merida] in the Yucatan? If Chan Santa Cruz had managed to do that, there wouldn't have been really any easy for Mexico to conquer the Yucatan as long as the Maya state had British support.

When the USSR rose, it set off a series of ideological struggles across the world and particularly in Latin America. If we had a full fledged independent indigenous state instead, do you think the kinds of revolutions in Latin America [particularly in Central America and the Andes] would have been indigenous independence movements instead of ideologically related struggles to communism? Although the independent Mayan state was conquered in the early 20th century and only lasted over half a century - because it didn't finish the job at Merida, I think it could have became the center of a pan-Indigenous movement across the Americas.
1. "as long as the Maya state had British support" - meh

2. why assume that the USSR would even exist with butterflies coming out of the mid-nineteenth century
 
Most indigenous communists have historically seen their struggles in terms of indigenous independence, at least in substantial part, so I think the juxtaposition you set up is misleading. During the Cold War era, their indigenism was naturally subsumed under their socialism when presented to non-indigenous audiences, but it was always a substantial current. (Take the Zapatistas in Mexico, who transitioned fairly seamlessly from Maoism to Maya indigenism simply by shifting their emphasis.) An explicitly indigenous state may have allowed these concerns to find higher billing, but even then, it's not a given, especially if such a state was dependent on Western imperial powers and therefore comprised as a symbol of indigenous independence.

With my immense knowledge of this part of the world, ahem, surely the identification with socialism was the best way of posturing themselves against the yankees and tap into that resevoir of distrust and hate of the US in South America; United Fruit a particular in-your-face symbol of that relationship. On the other hand, you also gain an ally in the Soviet Union who, to my knowledge, were very supportive of foreign communist movements during the Cold War. Support, the US wasn't going to give.

I cannot recall many influential indigneous communists although they may be outside of my knowledge. You have your Jose Martis but he was as white as a sheet.
Is Chavez the foremost?
It points to the idea that idealogy wasn't the driving force behind these leaders' convictions but a way of accruing the two benefits i mentioned above.

/mindless speculation over.
 
Well, I'm really talking about rank-and-filers, here. There weren't many Indians among the leadership of the Latin American left, simply because the structures of Latin American society tended to preclude it. Political leaders tended to be from urban backgrounds, which meant that even if they weren't necessarily from a privileged background, they were still likely to be Spanish-speaking whites and mestizos. Indigenous peoples, in contrast, were mostly from rural backgrounds, and consequently at the periphery of formal politics. There were of course exceptions, going all the way back to Benito Juarez and beyond, but by and large their participation was primarily grass-roots, so I don't think global geopolitics is an entirely satisfactory explanation for their attraction to revolutionary socialism. Both their indigenism and their socialism began very locally, with the stuff of day-to-day life, and worked up from there. As you say, many nationalist intellectuals identified Marxism as a vehicle for nationalist programmes, and there's a body of argument that, post-1945, that's really what Marxism-Leninism was in a global context, but they're really a very different set of people altogether than the peasants and poor labourers who make up the greater part of the indigenous population of Latin America.

(There's probably a comparison to be made between the archetypes of the radical priest and the Marxist intellectual as mediators between indigenous and bourgeois political society, educated individuals who "go to the people", imagining themselves as the bearers of a doctrine of salvation, spiritual or material, but who attract a following because peasants recognise them as a national or global vehicle for their own local grievances, interests and ideals. But, I'm probably not the person to be making it.)
 
Domen said:
Bill John Baker is 0,0312% Cherokee.
That's not how identity works.
 
That's still rather removed from a blood quotient expressed in those terms.
 
IMO "being 0,0312% Cherokee" means that out of his most recent 3200 ancestors, 1 was a Cherokee.

So it is not about "blood", because they did not check "how much of a Cherokee" was in each of his remaining 3199 non-Cherokee ancestors.

It is possible that apart from one "true Cherokee" ancestor, he also had other non-Cherokee ancestors with some Cherokee ancestry (for example also 1/3200).

So "by blood" he might be even more Cherokee than just 0,0312%.
 
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