Where's Adolf?

[drahnier]

I'm aware of Germanys cultural history.
But a lot of nations that weren't put in the game have had great philosphers and composers too, and have been important in the history of their region.
So maybe what puts Germany over the edge above those nations is all the fame they got thanks to Hitler.

Also, it's only actually been Germany for like 150 years.
Before that it was a bunch of small states all fighting eachother.
And before that it was part of the "holy roman empire", which i'd hardly refer to as synonymous with Germany.

 

[Renobe]

Hitler, while maybe not a great person, was a great leader.

After World War I, Germany faced a massive debt because of war costs. To pay back debt, they kept printing money; they faced massive inflation and their economy was in ruins. This was a time when almost the entire world was in a depression. Hitler was just a part of the government, when he asked the chancellor, through a clause in the government, if he could rule for a few months because he felt he could do good. Once he was in power, he changed the rules and stayed as dictator. Under his "war machine", he brough back Germany from the depths of economic ruin, and by going to war, he brought he U.S. and the rest of Europe out of a depression. As a leader, his charisma and charm were uncanny; he had the ability to make anybody in his nation swoon. No man without some charisma could rally an entire country to hate one ethnicity. His military leadership was lacking, as he didn't trust his generals, but this has always been an issue, as many leaders who give power to their inferiors lose more than they gain. Hitler was an awful person, but as a leader, he had great ability. Besides, it's not like Germany faced too many issues, as they have the third best economy in the world right now, only 60 years after the end of World War II and only 15 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Napoleon, who many count as one of the greatest leaders ever to rule, had the same issue. He only kept power for about 15 years; he expanded very quickly, and ulitmately, he lost by invading Russia just the same way as Hitler did. Before he ruled, France was always a world power; since he was dethroned, France has never been the same. He had a worse effect on his country than Hitler on his. His Continental system, which outlawed countries from trading with Britain backfired, as people hated him for stopping them from trading with their main commercial friend. He ruined their economy and left them below most of the other large countries in Europe. One major difference between him and Hitler is that his Napoleonic Code still forms the major parts of French society. Should Napoleon be in? Yes. He is the defining leader of the French. Should Hitler be in? Yes. He is the defining leader of the Germans. Hitler, in my opinion, should be in.

Alexander the Great only lived a very short time and the empire he created vanished with him. Being of Greek ancestry not with standing, I am still amazed he is held up an such high regards by historians.

 

[Zombie69]

In a historic perspective a great leader is someone future generations will refer to with pride. I believe this is the case with all leaders in the game.

The french admire Napoleon

The French don't admire Napoleon. You'd have to be pretty messed up to admire him.

I think Hitler should be in the game because he had the biggest impact on the German nation, and also because he led them to their greatest hour (capturing most of Europe is no small feat). He also led them to their most horrible defeat, but that's another matter.

I also think Stalin or Lenin should be in the game.

And Otto Von Bismark is a great choice and should definitely stay.

 

[drahnier]

A lot of French people do admire Napoleon.

There's been a heated debate in France lately though because someone wrote a book revealing how Napoleon supposedly murdered hundreds of thousands of black people in a systematic genocide compared to that of Hitler.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

This game is sold in Germany. Please forgive my ignorance, but don't they have some actual laws about the display of Nazi symbols and such? There may well be a technical legal issue that would prevent such inclusion in a game sold there.

 

[Danielos]

This game is sold in Germany. Please forgive my ignorance, but don't they have some actual laws about the display of Nazi symbols and such? There may well be a technical legal issue that would prevent such inclusion in a game sold there.

Yes, swastikas are not allowed in computer games, for example.

 

[me_Barb]

This is a mod we are talking about so laws shoudn't be a problem. Fireaxis can make a new hundread leaders mod and put it for free download on their site for all who want it.
Anyway as someone mentioned above but in a satiric way. I would like the etnic and religion clensing option included. I just hate it when I have to wait and wait for that big enemy city to become usefull after I take it and rebel all the time. After aquireing some population of you own in the city lets say 10% you should be able to conduct a purge and kill all population of the original civ at the cost of a diplomatic hit with it and loss of the precentage that population represented from the city size. It's not like it is a new practice. It has been done for thousands of years by conqueres of any caliber. Same for religion but after they make it more usefull. Now it doesn't matter what religion you are. Religion should give you some specific bonus for each religion and changeing to a new one should always create a big rupture in your empire especially if you have been practicing it for thousands of years. It is like the king of Engalnd suddenly decides "i'm a taoist from now on because my capital has this cult and the whole empire is like hurray but after 1 turn". Changing a religion should be big and having other religions in you country should weaken or not dependent on the civic. And holding a holy city should make civs of particular religion wage holy wars on you to take it from you "heathen" hands . On hitler yes he should be included. Missing features/leadres/things in the game just because they are not nice is stupid. If it is in history and made and impact it should be there. Hitler should be in for a good "I'll stomp you with my superior boots you less than human scum" domination victory.

 

[aesir05]

I just think that leaders like Genghis Khan and Alexander conquered most of Europe and Asia when there were no tanks around, and their soldiers had to go one on one with the other armies (mostly).
In my opinion those leaders did a much better job than Hitler did.
Even Victoria had a powerful reign when England was at its best.

I don't get the comment about Stalin, Stalin was a good leader, he may not have expanded like Hitler but he broke the back of the German war machine.
I think Joseph Stalin should be included in the game instead of Hitler.

 

[x_s]

All of rullers have theyar sins.
during Peter's ministry 24 miliions people was died, 300 000 of them on building of St. Petrburg...

 

[me_Barb]

Yes. It should just be fair and put them all or at least their pictures and the ability to rename not only yourself but your enemies too. Special traits shoud remain as there is a limited number of combinations.

 

[Rane Khan]

No man without some charisma could rally an entire country to hate one ethnicity.

Hitler, at most, only strenghtend the feelings many Germans, and for that matter Europeans at large, had towards Jews (In regions of countries like Poland a lot of people still think that way, and some 'praise' the holocaust even). Heck, you could even say that before the Americans started hating Commies en masse they had another favorite: the Jews.

Imo, there is a big difference between 'creating' on the one hand and 'working' with excisting feelings. Hitler and the people around him would have 'used' another group of people if it had suited them better and if they haden't been taught to hate Jews by their communities. Which only makes their actions more repulsive.

 

[El-Presidente]

Hitler did not do crap the Illuminati got him to power since they funded both sides of the war the US and Germany. Hitler is to evil to be a leader someone who killed handicap people for fun deserves no place in history or in a game.

 

[Vonreuter]

Err, likening the whole history of the German people to one leader who was in power for less than two decades by creating a faction with swastikas in their flag would not only be politically incorrect but short-sighted, prejudiced and absolutely moronic. The Germans have been around for hundreds of years - the whole of their history was not written in 1939-1945. Quite on the contrary, it was just a dark patch of ink on the pages of the Great Book.

People who play Civilization should know better. History is an epic of countless years.

 

[Rane Khan]

And besides, the 'Germany' depicted in this game is (leader wise) more 'Prussian' then 'German'.

 

[DraconisRex]

Heh, I would play has Hitler... then adopt Judaism as my state religion

Heh. Heh. I generally end up as the games' Jews. And, ironically, play Fredrick a lot because I love those Panzers... I get a big laugh out of it...

-----------------------------------------------------

As for the lame, "romantic-view" of Hitler's accomplishments that some people are spouting, Hitler's accomplishments were pretty pathetic when you get into the details. Most of it was smoke and mirrors and predicated on ripping off and whipping up the masses, violating treaties, and getting a temporary military advantage which was quickly squandered. In America, we've had one-term President's accomplish more good for their country and without the nearly complete destruction of our country's infrastructure and loss of a generation of men.

 

[Vonreuter]

Also, it's only actually been Germany for like 150 years.

I don't think it means Germany as a nation but the Germanic people living in and around the area which in the end became Germany. But how can you question why Germany is in the game but not why America is in the game? The U.S.A has been around for 250 years (from 1776 to date). Now compare this to any ancient civilization left out of the game...

Shouldn't I feel silly when I bump into Americans in the Ancient times (unless the early Americans are Native Americans)? No, because this game is only a game, and the civilizations are just abstractions, merely factions to play in a game.

 

[DraconisRex]

Hitler, while maybe not a great person, was a great leader.

After World War I, Germany faced a massive debt because of war costs. To pay back debt, they kept printing money; they faced massive inflation and their economy was in ruins. This was a time when almost the entire world was in a depression. Hitler was just a part of the government, when he asked the chancellor, through a clause in the government, if he could rule for a few months because he felt he could do good. Once he was in power, he changed the rules and stayed as dictator. Under his "war machine", he brough back Germany from the depths of economic ruin, and by going to war, he brought he U.S. and the rest of Europe out of a depression. As a leader, his charisma and charm were uncanny; he had the ability to make anybody in his nation swoon. No man without some charisma could rally an entire country to hate one ethnicity. His military leadership was lacking, as he didn't trust his generals, but this has always been an issue, as many leaders who give power to their inferiors lose more than they gain. Hitler was an awful person, but as a leader, he had great ability. Besides, it's not like Germany faced too many issues, as they have the third best economy in the world right now, only 60 years after the end of World War II and only 15 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

I'm sorry, but this is a laugh. But then, this is the kind of wacko analysis I'd expect coming from someone who quotes Ann Rand.

 

[carn]

All of rullers have theyar sins.
during Peter's ministry 24 miliions people was died, 300 000 of them on building of St. Petrburg...

What did cause the death of the 24 million and the death of the 300000?
Did Peter want them to die or did they die as a side effect of his policy?
What was the motivation, what were the goals, did Peter have alternativ choices?

I do not think there are many leaders, that would have agreed to what Hitler thought policy should look like:

The sole purpose of domestic policy is to forge the sword.
The sole purposes of foreign policy is to find allies and choose the right moment to attack.

That's my translation from "Mein Kampf".
I do not think any civ4 leaders would agree to this, they all would add ,maybe as a second priority point, something like "not too many off my people should starve","some sort of stability is nice", etc. Even Stalin had the idea that he wanted to bless the world with wonderful communism and that that would make the world a better place.

For Hitler it was only about dominating all others through war, everything else had to serve that purpose.

Carn

 

[me_Barb]

I do believe the Crusades lunched by a very ambitious "world-domination" type of pope had begun in a vey similar fation. In fact they were even worse as jew, muslims and East orthodox Chistians were all butchered as crusades coudn't really tell the difference. Of course a lot less people were living then comapred to Hitler's time and nobody really kept count. Hitler was just one of many in History. There is nothing uniquely evil, crazy or genius about him compared to other historic leaders. It just so happens it is the most recent and we have better recording practices . Oh and hitler wanted more living space for his "superior" race. I doubt he was willing to go all the way to china if he could beat the russinans just so he can have a war with somebody.

 

[Casluerj]

The French don't admire Napoleon. You'd have to be pretty messed up to admire him.

I think Hitler should be in the game because he had the biggest impact on the German nation, and also because he led them to their greatest hour (capturing most of Europe is no small feat). He also led them to their most horrible defeat, but that's another matter.

I also think Stalin or Lenin should be in the game.

And Otto Von Bismark is a great choice and should definitely stay.

So you say make Germany a nation with 3 leaders???

Or remove Fred II? The most impressive German of all history... A guy who take a "nation" small like a bug, Prussia, and turn it into one of the most important nation of Europe, that make possible Bismark do his job later... A man who was able to not lose a war that Prussia, the bug, was fighting almost alone (since England didnt little job in the continent) against France, Austria, Russia, Sweden, German States....................................

Hitler is important and if he had born in another country he'd certanly be its leader, but not in Germany, Bismark and Fred cant leave.