Which Civ we should have before Civilization VI?

[ulfulf]

Again rightly or wrongly, Vikings aren't in the game because of their admittedly impressive list of historical accomplishments, they're in the game because of their popular image as, well, Vikings, and Denmark is a better representative of that than Sweden and arguably than Norway. All the above can be seen as Norse achievements, but not Viking ones (the word a-viking itself means to go raiding; Vikings were essentially a warrior caste rather than a society in their own right).

That may be why they are in the game. I still think that denmark is a poor choice even if in that case.

As for the word "viking", my understanding is that its meaning is heavily debated. It may mean somebody hiding in a vik, a bay, for an ambush. It may mean somone from a specific place; "vik". These people often settled in "viks" for example in Reykjavik. But that most scholars tend to lean towards that it describes and act of going on adventure, or travel, but not nessecarily to raid. And that such an activity wasn't really limited to a specific caste, even when they planned to raid.

The norse achivements, as you called them, are all about "going viking" (going on adventure - exploring, trading and raiding - if that indeed is the correct meaning of the word) and thus Denmark as the viking civ seems like an odd choice.

For the record i asked for "the Norse", and not "the Vikings"

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

All of those countries are ethnically Malay, and while under the control of different European powers they do have similar colonial histories. The situation is somewhat complex in Indochina, although being less familiar with local rivalries in the Malay Archipelago I'm not sure I can compare them - the Khmer in particular strongly dislike the Vietnamese, and are not particular fans of the Thais. These are also territories with long-held grudges over historical conquests dating back a very long time, as these countries have existed as discrete entities with more or less recognisable borders for a lot longer than Malaysia and I believe than the Philippines (which as far as I know is a fully colonial construct as a single political entity).

No they aren't... Indonesia just by itself is a huge melting pot and ethnic malays are a distinct minority there. They do not have similar colonial histories either... Except to the generic extent of all Euopean colonies in that they were exploited for economic gain. Malaysia in particular was very different from Indonesia in that it received huge amounts of Indian convicts as labourers changing the entire dynamics of the demography of the country, Indonesia didn't receive anything like this.

I wouldn't say the situation is any more complex between the mainland nations than between the archipelago nations, they all have their problems, and they all relate back to ASEAN, within which these problems manifest at a macro level for all the countries. But this discussion of modern nations is irrelevant anyway. Many of the SE Asian nations had enormous historical significance regardless of their influence today (certainly more then certain European nations included) and it baffles me that this area hasn't been exploited more for this franchise!

The question is, would you include Java and Borneo as separate civs? The argument here - I think justifiably - is that the SE Asian civs are sufficiently distinct to merit individual treatment (and I contend that that's the case regardless of the larger country from which they draw historical influences).

I think it's more likely and more plausible that Java and Sumatra be treated as separate civs; Indonesia taking from the Majapahit's history, and then Malaysia taking from the Srivijaya. I would love for this to happen at least... A SE Asia pack with a Srivijaya-Malaysia, Vietnam/Pagan and the Khmer would be fantastic I think 3 more is as much as we can stretch to imagine in this civ...

 

[Newfarian]

I was basing that on my single-player experience. Wars happen more rarely in BNW, but they still seem to be very persistent when they actually happen - that hasn't changed much since G&K.

In my experience with SP mode, once you capture 2-3 AI cities and have a military force to threaten to take more, the AI (even Shaka) will agree to peace terms. I have personally never been involved in long wars of attrition.

I rarely bother capturing workers, and I always want to keep one or two on standby in case pillaged improvements need repairing. It's certainly an inventive idea, I just doubt I'd get more than a couple of units out of it in a game.

Sure, different players have different play styles. But a player directing a Vietnamese civ would also have the option to build/purchase a worker quickly/cheaply --but only during times of war-- who can then be upgraded in the next turn to a Vietnamese UU that has relevance (for balance purposes) only during a certain era, e.g., the Fire Lancer.

I think a unique resource feels different in that regard from some of the other clumsy uniques. A unit or building is something produced; a resource is something in the landscape to exploit. Indonesia skirts close to the edge with pepper, certainly (and in general I think the unique resource idea is awkward), but even that is less ubiquitous in its production than rice - there are a few historical core sources, and while Indonesia isn't the primary one it's among a small number of major pepper exporters.

A mildly interesting side note: Vietnam is currently the world's largest producer and exporter of pepper.

More to the point, this discomfort with having the hypothetical Vietnamese civ be in possession of a unique bonus resource as commonplace as rice could be salved, perhaps, by my idea of tying it to generating happiness if rice is planted (i.e., it's not an automatic, like Indonesia's pepper; plus, it can be pillaged) on a marsh or floodplain tile within the territory of a city that also has a Water Puppet Theatre (WPT). Again, this is meant to reflect the development of water puppetry as a past time connected to rice farming, and their undeniable importance to the development of Vietnamese culture. Game play-wise, it would (A) strongly influence the selection of city placements for a player directing this Vietnamese civ (with the side benefit of making marsh tiles useful), and (B) make rice planting only especially beneficial to the Vietnamese if they researched Acoustics to build the the WPT.

Rice and water puppetry would also tie in well with the theme of water as the central characteristic of a hypothetical Vietnamese civ. After all, the third attribute I proposed in an earlier post, namely, military resistance against invaders (let's call it Thang Long, "Ascending Dragon," which has a rather interesting meaning), is also strongly connected to the theme of water. (Examples: Vietnamese victories at the First and Third Battles of the Bach Dang River in 938 and 1288, respectively, depended heavily on the Viet side's knowledge of local tides; and the Vietnamese venerance for the divine turtle that granted King Le Loi a magic sword to drive away the Ming.) I just hope that the idea of a theme that ties the hypothetical Vietnamese civ together, plus interesting dynamics like the ones I and others have proposed, will be enough to persuade the Firaxis developers to create a Vietnam DLC civ. I, for one, would be quite happy with such a development.

 

[Red Milk]

Vietnam with Ho Chi Minh
Cambodia/Khmers with Jayavarman II
Cuba with Fidel Castro
Gran Colombia with Simón Bolívar
Haiti with Toussaint Louverture

Tbh though I'm comfortable waiting for Civilization VI.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Vietnam with Ho Chi Minh

God no, there's tons of better leader choices out there. Not to mention the overseas Vietnamese community would riot (as they have in the past over these sort of things). And not to mention that the devs have shied from both modern and communist leaders in the present version of Civ.

My preference would be the Trung Sisters, or Quang Trung if the devs don't want someone female, but other good picks would be Le Loi, Le Thanh Tong, Tran Hung Dao, Ly Thuan Kiet, Ngo Quyen, An Duong Vuong, and a few others I probably forgot. But Trung Sisters all the way.

 

[Red Milk]

God no, there's tons of better leader choices out there.

There's other choices yes but I wouldn't say they're necessarily better.

Ho is well known, respected and represents the most well known part of Vietnamese history.

The best arguments against his exclusion are at best misaligned political correctness and at worst blatant propaganda.

Not to mention the overseas Vietnamese community would riot (as they have in the past over these sort of things).

"A niche strategy game has famous a Vietnamese leader leading Vietnam! The horror!"

 

[SnowKomodo]

There is very little justification for such an assessment (whether in terms of economics, culture, history, population, or anything else that I can divine), and furthermore it does a disservice to the countries of SEA by diminishing their individual uniqueness, thereby reducing the likelihood of their inclusion--on their own merits--in any future expansion or CVI. I have been to Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia, and they are incredibly different. In fact, each of the islands of Indonesia alone are distinctive in their language(s), culture(s), history(ies), cuisine(s), ethnic group(s), climate(s), fauna & flora, etc.

Indeed, though an American, I have lived in both SEA (7.5 years) and Europe (4.5 years), and the best analogy for those unfamiliar with SEA is to compare its countries to the members of the EU (although admittedly, SEA has much looser political and economic bonds). There can be no doubt that Germany is not France, and Spain is not Portugal. In the same way, Vietnam is not Cambodia, and Malaysia is not Indonesia.
(There are parallels in the examples I chose.)

But uniqueness alone won't grant the nations of SEA an entry into the Civ universe. Ultimately, as a community of Civ fan(atic)s, we should discuss how the attributes of each nation can be translated into interesting and fun mechanics in-game, and hope that the Civ developers will pick up our ideas.

I grew up in Southeast Asia. Believe me I'm the first to recognize how different they are (did you even read my other posts?) And I'm Indonesian, no need to lecture me on my own country

The point is not to lump them together. The point is to say that today, modern day, ASEAN needs to function as a whole - something they are working hard at doing - to balance out the other powers in Asia

Think of it like the EU - you even said it yourself - albeit with an Asian twist

Yeah, in the context of the game of course I wouldn't lump them together, but to deny that Southeast Asia is a pillar is to refuse to recognize the reality of the situation.

Calling them a pillar is not saying they are all the same countries. Calling them a pillar is saying that they function as a geo-political AND economic entity via ASEAN. Together as a whole they are the 8th largest economy in the world and this is a very common way to look at that region by outsiders

I think you simply misunderstood the point of my post

 

[SnowKomodo]

^Basically, yes, of course all the Southeast Asian countries are different.

But because none of them (apart from potentially Indonesia in the future) is powerful enough on their own in comparison to the other giants of Asia, so the concept of a "Southeast Asian pillar" has taken form.

I stand by what I said. Five pillars:
-China
-India
-Korea
-Japan
-Southeast Asia

Does that make more sense to people now?

 

[SnowKomodo]

But I was sidetracked by an existing discussion, I didn't mean for it to spin this far out of the way.

As for which SEA civs should be included?

I think it is fair to have at least one maritime civ (We already have that in Majapahit)

and at least two mainland SEA civs (We have that in Siam, but are still missing a potential Pagan, Vietnam, Khmer, etc)

Actually, a second maritime civ would not overclutter the region, as well as a third mainland civ, but I'm trying to look at it realistically here and I can only see 3 civs from that region in the game per Civ game

By this rationale, the devs are one Civ short from Southeast Asia, but we should still be happy because they took a step forward from just the usual single SEA Civ like in Civ I - Civ IV

 

[Civ'ed]

But I was sidetracked by an existing discussion, I didn't mean for it to spin this far out of the way.

As for which SEA civs should be included?

I think it is fair to have at least one maritime civ (We already have that in Majapahit)

and at least two mainland SEA civs (We have that in Siam, but are still missing a potential Pagan, Vietnam, Khmer, etc)

Actually, a second maritime civ would not overclutter the region, as well as a third mainland civ, but I'm trying to look at it realistically here and I can only see 3 civs from that region in the game per Civ game

By this rationale, the devs are one Civ short from Southeast Asia, but we should still be happy because they took a step forward from just the usual single SEA Civ like in Civ I - Civ IV

Khmer is very close to Siam in multiple ways.
A Burma or Vietnam would be better. Maybe a Venice-like thing in Pattani or something? Brunei? Sulu?

 

[Newfarian]

I grew up in Southeast Asia. Believe me I'm the first to recognize how different they are (did you even read my other posts?) And I'm Indonesian, no need to lecture me on my own country

No lecture intended. Perhaps you should consider that my post was meant for other followers of this thread, as well as you?

The point is not to lump them together. The point is to say that today, modern day, ASEAN needs to function as a whole - something they are working hard at doing - to balance out the other powers in Asia

Think of it like the EU - you even said it yourself - albeit with an Asian twist

Yeah, in the context of the game of course I wouldn't lump them together, but to deny that Southeast Asia is a pillar is to refuse to recognize the reality of the situation.

Calling them a pillar is not saying they are all the same countries. Calling them a pillar is saying that they function as a geo-political AND economic entity via ASEAN. Together as a whole they are the 8th largest economy in the world and this is a very common way to look at that region by outsiders

I do not think that you are creating as coherent a point as you might believe. ASEAN is not an economic bloc, and as a loose political entity, it continues to be bedeviled by regional rivalries. In brief, its relevance to a discourse on the importance of (present-day) SEA is rather dubious. That said, I could imagine that you are trying to encourage the developers at Firaxis to include more SEA civs in order to reflect the economic ascendancy of the region as a whole. Is that your point?

 

[Newfarian]

My preference would be the Trung Sisters, or Quang Trung if the devs don't want someone female, but other good picks would be Le Loi, Le Thanh Tong, Tran Hung Dao, Ly Thuan Kiet, Ngo Quyen, An Duong Vuong, and a few others I probably forgot. But Trung Sisters all the way.

Don't forget Le Hoan.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Khmer is very close to Siam in multiple ways.
A Burma or Vietnam would be better. Maybe a Venice-like thing in Pattani or something? Brunei? Sulu?

Well no, Siam is almost entirely different to the Khmer. It may have similarities to Sukhotai since that kingdom broke off from it, but even then they are notably different. Khmer is absolutely the easiest justifiable addition to civ 5 out there atm, it is ticks every single box for every single definition of civilization with flying colours, except for "be European", but that's a little outdated justification these days .

No lecture intended. Perhaps you should consider that my post was meant for other followers of this thread, as well as you?

No need to get snarky... You called him out and said he was wrong, you should expect a reply, especially since you misinterpreted his point.

I do not think that you are creating as coherent a point as you might believe. ASEAN is not an economic bloc, and as a loose political entity, it continues to be bedeviled by regional rivalries. In brief, its relevance to a discourse on the importance of (present-day) SEA is rather dubious. That said, I could imagine that you are trying to encourage the developers of Firaxis to include more SEA civs in order to reflect the economic ascendancy of the region. Is that your point?

It is ABSOLUTELY an economic block, what are you talking about? Their primary aims are for stability and growth, the reasons they are co-operating are political and economic development. It's not bedeviled by anything in the grand scheme of things, it is marching onward and upward faster than most of the rest of the world. China is absolutely DESPERATE to get in with them before the USA, it is the hottest area in political-economic rivalry in the world right now. I can't emphasize enough how much of a rising star ASEAN is and how important it is to international relations and international economics right now.

 

[Newfarian]

It is ABSOLUTELY an economic block, what are you talking about?

In terms of an economic and monetary union with a single market and a single currency, and therefore would have some real, unitary clout? No, ASEAN is not an economic bloc. Right now, it is a trade bloc with an effective free trade area.

 

[quantum42]

Civ 5 is only a game. The civs represented in the game are better called nation-states (politic entities) than civilizations (social/cultural entities). There will always be controversies about which ones are included and which ones are not. The choices of which ones were included were hopefully made to add variety to game play.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

In terms of an economic and monetary union with a single market and a single currency, and therefore would have some real, unitary clout? No, ASEAN is not an economic bloc. Right now, it is a trade bloc with an effective free trade area.

That is not an economic bloc. You are in fact making up definitions right now

It is a trade bloc yes, and a trade bloc is a type of economic bloc. It's not an economic union, the thing that you are describing, but i think you're a little confused over the terminology.

I'd also add that real unitary clout can be achieved to an extent with a trade bloc and is not automatically achieved by an economic union as you seem to imply. ASEAN right now has far more real unitary clout than CARICOM

 

[Newfarian]

That is not an economic bloc. You are in fact making up definitions right now

It is a trade bloc yes, and a trade bloc is a type of economic bloc. It's not an economic union, the thing that you are describing, but i think you're a little confused over the terminology.

Who gets to make up the definition of what constitutes an economic bloc? You?

I haven't been on these forums long enough to know if you are a troll. You are sidetracking the conversation, so please stop.

I think what all the participants in the conversation on SEA can agree is that there are plenty more nations/civs from that region that can make contribute some additional fun game mechanics to the Civ franchise. I hope the developers at Firaxis take note of this.

 

[Civ'ed]

Well no, Siam is almost entirely different to the Khmer. It may have similarities to Sukhotai since that kingdom broke off from it, but even then they are notably different. Khmer is absolutely the easiest justifiable addition to civ 5 out there atm, it is ticks every single box for every single definition of civilization with flying colours, except for "be European", but that's a little outdated justification these days .

Fair enough, but still, Ramkhamhaeng was a Sukothai king IIRC and the capital is Sukothai, so it's clearly based on that specific successor state.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Who gets to make up the definition of what constitutes an economic bloc? You?

I haven't been on these forums long enough to know if you are a troll. You are sidetracking the conversation, so please stop.

I think what all the participants in the conversation on SEA can agree is that there are plenty more nations/civs from that region that can make contribute some additional fun game mechanics to the Civ franchise. I hope the developers at Firaxis take note of this.

Well language is a very fluid thing, but when you're arguing with someone and sticking to a point you think is correct you have to be precise in what you are saying by using conventional dictionary definitions to convey meaning, or else your point risks becoming lessened by a lack of understanding i'm afraid.

I'm not a troll, i'm simply rebutting you, and i'll think you'll find that the sidetracking began long before you or I got involved, but I appreciate your stand down and i'll do the same as this is a bit off topic

I agree with you on your last point, i'll have my fingers crossed and i feel like they are moving in a general direction where the stars may align and we might just get lucky

Fair enough, but still, Ramkhamhaeng was a Sukothai king IIRC and the capital is Sukothai, so it's clearly based on that specific successor state.

Gotta agree with you there, i don't quite understand why the went with calling it Siam to be honest! I'd love to see all the options you mentioned at the end of the day, but I personally would love to see the Khmer first

 

[Ximixanga]

Nations that haven't been represented before, I think, should show up somewhere before VI. Isn't it a bit early to think about VI? I know it's been nearly three years since Civ V first came out, but it seems a bit premature. Surely, though, they're thinking about it at Firaxis.

A few nations or civs I'd like to see:

• Australia, possibly aboriginal peoples. As far as I know, Australia has never been represented in a civilization game.
• Canada. Give me some mounties! A very oft-requested civ I think.
• Hungary. It's had quite a history from what I understand. I don't know if they've ever been represented in any of the games, either.
• Modern versions of already-included civs. Like Italy for Rome or Mexico for Aztecs.
• Antarctica. A civ that can settle ice tiles and is ruled entirely by penguins.

Of course, I'm sure that they'll consider other civs that are fan favorites or heavily requested, especially if they've been in previous titles. If not, they'll probably end up in some scenario sort of game.