Which traits the civ SHOULD have ?

[Akka]

The appearance of two new traits are very good for variety. Particularly when you wish to mod the game.
That's what I did, but I'm now facing some troubles : which civ should get which traits ?
For some it's easy, but for others it's quite hard : there is the ones (like Greece or Rome) that just fill more than three traits (Greece was, at the same time, religious, scientific, seafaring and commercial... ), and then I have to find which one is the least important ; there is also the opposite, civ that just fit one or two traits (example : Mongols, who were militaristic and expansionist, but really nothing else...), and then I wonder if I should make them "under-civ" with less traits, or if I should hurt the history and give them additionnal ones, based on analogies and likeliness ; and finally, there is the ones I just don't know enough about to take a decision (Korea, Babylon...).

So, well, I'd like to ask for opinions here

Here is the list of the civ I'll use, separated in four sections :


1 - These ones have their three traits, and I'm mostly happy with them. I feel they are historically adequate, but I may be wrong.


Arabia : Expansionist, Religious, Scientific.
China : Agricultural, Scientific, Industrious.
France : Agricultural, Commercial, Scientific.
Vikings/Scandinavia : Militaristic, Expansionist, Seafaring.


2 - This section is for the civs where I'm undecided on some traits :

Byzantium : Commercial, Religious. and then Scientific/Seafaring/Militaristic ?
England : Commercial, Seafaring, and then Industrious/Expansionist ?
Spain : Religious, and then Seafaring/Militaristic/Expansionist ?
Germany : Militaristic, Scientific, and then Commercial/Industrious ?



3 - Civs that just fulfill more than three traits. Which one I should dump ?

Rome : Commercial, Industrious, Militaristic, Expansionist.
Greece : Commercial, Religious, Expansionist, Seafaring, Scientific.
Egypt : Agricultural, Religious, Industrious, Scientific.


4 - Civs that I find/see enough traits for, or fulfilling traits that aren't in the game. Should I let them lacking, or should I add one ?

Aztecs : Religious, Militaristic, ?
Carthage : Seafaring, Commercial, ?
Mongols : Militaristic, Expansionist, ?
India : Religious, Agricultural, ?
Japan : Militaristic, ?
Ottomans/Turks : Militaristic, Religious, ?
Russia : Expansionist, ?
Zulus : Militaristic, ?


5 - I just don't know enough about these civ. What do you advise me ? (this suppose that you KNOW about them, not just GUESS. Only real knowledge, please) :

Babylon/Sumeria : ?
Celts : Religious, ?
Incas : ?
Iroquois : ?
Korea : ?
Mali : ?
Persia : Militaristic, ?



PS : please, keep in mind that I wish to get opinions keeping history and scale in consideration. It's not because this civ made two inventions that it should be considered scientific, nor because it traded three kind of goods that it should be considered commercial. What is important are the cultural and historical tendencies and accomplishment of the whole civ.

 

[Xen]

foe sectrion 2 add

Byzantium- scientific
England-Commercial
Spain-sea fareing, expansionist
Germany-Industrious
--------------------------------------------------------
for section 3 remove

Rome- could go either way, i suggest expasionist
Greece-Religious, Expansionist or Commercial - dont get me wrong religion was VERY important,but then again so was commerce...
Egypt- Scientific (most of the sceinces were developed as an aspect from the religion, IIRC)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dunno about the other for the most, I migh tpost later though...

 

[Akka]

Noted, Xen. I think I'll trust your word on Byzantium ^^

But, on England... You said "add commercial". Mmh, it's ALREADY included
I'm undecided on the industrious/expansionist side, not the commercial one ^^

 

[Xen]

whoops, your right - I suggest industrial

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by Akka
4 - Civs that I find/see enough traits for, or fulfilling traits that aren't in the game. Should I let them lacking, or should I add one ?

Aztecs : Religious, Militaristic, ?
Carthage : Seafaring, Commercial, ?
Mongols : Militaristic, Expansionist, ?
India : Religious, Agricultural, ?
Japan : Militaristic, ?
Ottomans/Turks : Militaristic, Religious, ?
Russia : Expansionist, ?
Zulus : Militaristic, ?


5 - I just don't know enough about these civ. What do you advise me ? (this suppose that you KNOW about them, not just GUESS. Only real knowledge, please) :

Babylon/Sumeria : ?
Celts : Religious, ?
Incas : ?
Iroquois : ?
Korea : ?
Mali : ?
Persia : Militaristic, ?

Aztec-agri
Cart-rel
Mon-com(they reopened the silk road)
Ind-com/sci
Jap-if you look at recent history->Com and Exp. if you look at old his->agri and rel
Otto-Exp!
Rus-agri and com/ind(not super realistic, but they fit better than other options)
Zulu-Exp and Rel(again not very accurate, but they are still more realistic than the other options)

Bab/Sum-Rel, Agri and Sci
Celt-Rel, Mil and Agri
Inca-Exp, Rel and Ind
Iriquis-Rel, ? and ?
Korea-Com, {Sea and Ind<same answer as rus ans zulu
Mali-Com, Mil and Exp or agri
Persia-Exp, Rel and Ind/Com/Agri

 

[Drift]

My 2 cents:

Byzantium : Commercial, Religious, Scientific
England : Commercial, Seafaring, Expansionist
Spain : Religious, Seafaring, Expansionist
Germany : Militaristic, Scientific, Industrious

Rome: Industrious, Militaristic, Expansionist.
Greece : Commercial, Seafaring, Scientific.
Egypt : Agricultural, Religious, Industrious

Aztecs : Religious, Militaristic, Agricultural
Carthage : Seafaring, Commercial, Industrious
India : Religious, Agricultural, Commercial
Japan : Militaristic, Scientific, Industrious
Ottomans/Turks : Militaristic, Expansionist, Industrious
Russia : Expansionist, Agricultural, Scientific

 

[Yoda Power]

Drift why would you make Carthage Ind? And Japan Sci?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by Akka
2 - This section is for the civs where I'm undecided on some traits :

Byzantium : Commercial, Religious. and then Scientific/Seafaring/Militaristic ?

Scientific

England : Commercial, Seafaring, and then Industrious/Expansionist ?

Industrious

Spain : Religious, and then Seafaring/Militaristic/Expansionist ?

Either Expansionist or Commercial

Germany : Militaristic, Scientific, and then Commercial/Industrious ?

Hmm, not sure, I'll go with Industrious

3 - Civs that just fulfill more than three traits. Which one I should dump ?

Rome : Commercial, Industrious, Militaristic, Expansionist.

Dump Expansionist

Greece : Commercial, Religious, Expansionist, Seafaring, Scientific.

Greece represents Athens in many ways. I would dump Religious and Expansionist

Egypt : Agricultural, Religious, Industrious, Scientific.

Dump Scientific

4 - Civs that I find/see enough traits for, or fulfilling traits that aren't in the game. Should I let them lacking, or should I add one ?

Aztecs : Religious, Militaristic, ?

Since C3C has them with Agricultural, go with that.

Carthage : Seafaring, Commercial, ?

Although in the game they are Industrious, I would make them Expansionist

Mongols : Militaristic, Expansionist, ?

Good question.

India : Religious, Agricultural, ?

I would go with Commercial.

Japan : Militaristic, ?

Maybe Religious and something else (Industrious maybe).

Ottomans/Turks : Militaristic, Religious, ?

I thought Scientific, Industrious fit them because they were technologically advanced compared to the Europeans.

Russia : Expansionist, ?

Not sure. They were technologically behind through most of their history and they had problems defeating the Germans for a long time. I've heard arguments why they aren't Agricultural either. Maybe Sci, Agr, Exp anyway, though.

Zulus : Militaristic, ?

Expansionist, and something else

5 - I just don't know enough about these civ. What do you advise me ? (this suppose that you KNOW about them, not just GUESS. Only real knowledge, please) :

Babylon/Sumeria : ?

Babylon's traits seem to fit itself. It had a great culture (that made it difficult for the Assyrians to conquer them because it would be like attackin their own holy city). Agricultural fits Sumer (and I guess all Mesopotamians) pretty well.

Celts : Religious, ?

Militaristic. Maybe Commercial

Incas : ?

I know the Inca expanded and conquered a huge territory in south america. They could farm on mountains (Terrace Farming) and were great at building things (Machu Pichu), even without advanced tools, to great precision. They had a large road system, which their Messangers (Chasqui Scouts) could run through the whole empire. I would go with Agricultural, Industrious, Expansionist

Iroquois : ?

From what I know about the Iroquois history, I would have trouble thinking of any great candidated for traits besides Commercial. They had a unified government and could see the advantage of the Europeans. They traded as a whole, waged war as a whole, and made treaties defining borders with the Europeans as a whole. But, since strength of government isn't represented by traits, I'm not sure what to add besides Commercial. They kept themselves more isolated than expansionist for a good portion of their history (which helped shelter them from the diseases), but, when they had firearms and an incentive to get more land (more trapping ground for Beaver pelts), they expanded rapidly. Although some people claim that it was the Europeans who got the Iroquois to start scalping their enemy, this is not true (although they did encourage it, paying for the scalps of enemies). The Iroquois were vary barbaric in warfare (often burning and scalping prisoners alive), and war was a common part of their life. But war parties were usually some (almost like a sporting event). The game has them as Commercial, Agricultural. Although I can't argue with this, you made India Rel, Com, Agr. So I would make the Iroquois Commercial, Religious, Expansionist/Militaristic/Agricultural

Korea : ?

Since the game has them as Scientific, Commercial, start there. I don't know about a third trait, although if I had to guess, I would make them Seafaring (but I can't guarantee that).

Mali : ?

I'll admit I know about as much about Mali as I do about the Koreans (less actually). Plus I have no traits to base it on. But I believe there was a trading empire through the Sahara related to the Mali (Am I right that Timbuktu is a related city?). So I would go with Commercial. No clue with anything else.

Persia : Militaristic, ?

Although they conquered a large area, I'm not sure if the Persian Empire is Militaristic (I'm not willing to abandon the Civ3 traits, which weren't unfitting). Although I don't know why they were industrious off-hand (I think it had something to do with their communication system, which was actually Assyrian, not Persian). Anyway, I would lean towards Scientific, Industrious, Commercial. But maybe Sci, Com, Mil. I'm trying to avoid duplicating trait combos, but I'm probably not doing a good job.

Edit: Persia could also be Religious.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I did some work on this before we knew all the civs so Polynesia (Maori's origin) is in there, but here's a rundown.
For the ones I had ANY doubt on, I searched for some facts before posting so if you have any q's, please ask and I may be able to find my fact file again

Seafaring Agricultural - Carthaginia (in lieu for a better word
Seafaring Expansionist - Portugal
Seafaring Commercial - Holland
Seafaring Scientific - Greece
Seafaring Militarist - Scandinavia and my fav for the 32nd civ - Polynesia or Maori
Seafaring Religious - Spain
Seafaring Industrious - England
Agricultural Expansionist - Iroquois
Agricultural Commercial - Mayan
Agricultural Scientific - Babylonia
Agricultural Militarist - China
Agricultural Religious - India
Agricultural Industrious - Egypt
Expansionist Commercial - Ottoman
Expansionist Scientific - Russia
Expansionist Militarist - Mongolia/Zulu
Expansionist Religious - Arabia
Expansionist Industrious - Incan
Commercial Scientific - France
Commercial Militarist - Rome
Commercial Religious - Persia
Commercial Industrious - Korea
Scientific Militarist - Germany/America
Scientific Religious - Sumeria
Scientific Industrious - Hitite
Militarist Religious - Azteca/Japan
Militarist Industrious - Celt
Religious Industrious - Byzantium

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Drift why would you make Carthage Ind? And Japan Sci?

Carthage as Ind was pure guesswork. As a relatively peaceful merchant civ they might have become known for their industrialism in the future. Expansionist was another option I toyed with. It is rather difficult since what I know about their history gives basis for just commercial and seafaring.

Japan's traits were chosen with an emphasis on modern age, hence the Sci.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Carthage was not peaceful.

But, since they are Industrious in Civ3, there must be some ground for it.

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Carthage was not peaceful.

But, since they are Industrious in Civ3, there must be some ground for it.

So now Firaxis do care about historical realism? Carthage was very religios, they even sacrifised their own children.

 

[Xen]

all the middle eastern religions- including Judaism at the very neginning (as shown by God wanting Abraham to sacrifce his first born) sacrificed children at one time- but it was restircted to royalty for the most part, the problem came up when Carthage turned into an oligarchy (technically, but in name, and in theory it was a republic)....

 

[Akka]

Ok, so here is the actual list, after taking into account what poster said

If any history fan has another insight... ^^



1 - Finished :


Arabia : Expansionist, Religious, Scientific.
Aztecs : Agricultural, Militaristic, Religious.
Babylon/Sumeria : Agricultural, Religious, Scientific.
Byzantium : Commercial, Religious. Scientific.
Carthage : Commercial, Expansionist, Seafaring.
Celts : Commercial, Militaristic, Religious.
China : Agricultural, Industrious, Scientific.
Egypt : Agricultural, Industrious, Religious.
England : Commercial, Industrious, Seafaring.
France : Agricultural, Commercial, Scientific.
Germany : Industrious, Militaristic, Scientific.
Greece : Commercial, Seafaring, Scientific.
Incas : Agricultural, Industrious, Expansionist.
India : Agricultural, Commercial, Religious.
Japan : Industrious, Militaristic, Religious.
Ottomans/Turks : Expansionist, Militaristic, Scientific.
Rome : Expansionist, Industrious, Militaristic.
Spain : Expansionist, Militaristic, Religious.
Vikings/Scandinavia : Expansionist, Militaristic, Seafaring.


2 - Not enough traits/don't know enough about them :

Iroquois : Commercial, ?
Mali : Commercial, ?
Mongols : Militaristic, Expansionist, ?
Russia : Expansionist, ?
Zulus : Expansionist, Militaristic, ?
Persia : Commercial, Militaristic, ?


I'm considering dumping Korea altogether. Still undecided, though.

 

[Mojotronica]

Here's my take on it:

American: Expansionist, Industrious
Arabian: Expansionist, Religious
Aztec: Militaristic, Religious
Babylonian: Agricultural, Expansionist
Byzantine: Commercial, Religious
Carthaginian: Commercial, Militaristic
Celtic: Religious, Seafaring
Chinese: Agricultural, Industrious
Dutch: Industrious, Seafaring
English: Expansionist, Seafaring
Egyptian: Industrious, Religious
French: Commercial, Scientific
German: Industrious, Scientific
Greek: Scientific, Seafaring
Hittite: Militaristic, Scientific
Incan: Industrious, Religious
Indian: Agricultural, Religious
Iroquois: Commercial, Expansionist
Japanese: Industrious, Militaristic
Korean: Agricultural, Commercial
Mayan: Religious, Scientific
Mongolian: Expansionist, Militaristic
(Ottoman) Turkish: Militaristic, Religious
Persian: Commercial, Industrious
Portuguese: Commercial, Seafaring
Roman: Industrious, Militaristic
Russian: Expansionist, Scientific
Spanish: Agricultural, Seafaring
Sumerian: Agricultural, Scientific
Viking (Scandinavian): Militaristic, Seafaring
Zulu: Agricultural, Militaristic

This differs radically (in some instances) from the core game rules. But this is how I would have set them up if I had control of it. I have gone through these and minimized the overlap in combos: there are 28 possible combinations, so that leaves 3 duplicate combinations. I have assigned those to Civs that are as far apart physically and chronologically as possible.

 

[HAWKMAN812]

Can a civ have 3 or more bonus? Does that change the game or the AI in anyway, other than giving the bonus?

 

[thestonesfan]

I like your list, mojo, except that Turkey is probably the least religious of the middle eastern civs, as far as I know. I made them Commercial and Expansionist. Cause you know, I bought an Ottoman once.

 

[Inhalaattori]

Mayans: Scientific, Industrious, Religious
Incas: Acricultural, Industrious, Religious

 

[thestonesfan]

Originally posted by HAWKMAN812
Can a civ have 3 or more bonus? Does that change the game or the AI in anyway, other than giving the bonus?

Yes, but I don't know why people give them three. Two is plenty.

 

[gettingfat]

A couple of suggestions re. (2) (not enough traits)

Mongols: add religious. During their great conquest they always held priests and monks to very high regard.

Russia: militaristic/expansionist/scientific. Consider they are the second country who sent manned spaceship, have all those atomic physicists, and their favorite game is playing chess.