Which will the 6(5) new leaders be ? (for civilizations that are already in game)

Choose only two from the available options bellow , for which Leader you would prefer

  • Germany : Hitler

    Votes: 32 27.8%
  • Germany : Barbarossa

    Votes: 8 7.0%
  • Germany : Charlemagne

    Votes: 9 7.8%
  • France : Charles de Gaule

    Votes: 18 15.7%
  • France : Charlemagne

    Votes: 17 14.8%
  • Rome : Trajan

    Votes: 7 6.1%
  • Rome : Claudius

    Votes: 4 3.5%
  • Persia : Darius

    Votes: 25 21.7%
  • Persia :Shapur II

    Votes: 4 3.5%
  • Spain : Charles V

    Votes: 27 23.5%
  • Spain : Philip II

    Votes: 28 24.3%
  • Arabia : Abu Bakr

    Votes: 16 13.9%
  • Arabia :`Umar ibn al-Khattāb

    Votes: 5 4.3%
  • Japan : Meji

    Votes: 59 51.3%

  • Total voters
    115
Why Xerxes? Cyrus and Darius were far better leaders! Darius is the next good choice for the Persians...and he should probably be given the Organized trait for his work reorganizing the Persians, especially in Ionia.

Here's another alternative to Pericles: Epaminondas. Now, hear me out:

If you want a leader to represent Greece who is actually Greek, the most obvious choice seems to be the leader of the Athenians at their height in the 5th century BCE: Pericles. However, in the 4th century BCE, Thebes manages to take control of the vast majority of Greece, as the head of the Boeotian League. The major leaders of Thebes at the time were Pelopidas (the head of the Sacred Band) and Epaminondas (another general, but one more politically inclined). Epaminondas came the closest, I think, to uniting Greece under the Greeks, reduced Sparta to a second-rate power, and brought most of Greece under Theban influence. He's a solid contender, I think.

I'm going to throw in my name suggestions for France and Germany: Phillip Augustus for France and Barbarossa for Germany--both pre-Rennaissance leaders that don't get a lot of love on the boards. For Japan, I'm thinking Meiji myself, a more Industrial/Modern Japanese leader who wouldn't be a complete isolationist like Tokugawa--he's the figurehead of the modern image of Japan.

Can anyone tell my why Phillip II of Spain? Was he the bankrupt one or the incompetent one? If any leader should be added, I would suggest Charles V (or Carlos I, I think, by the Spanish succession). However, he became the Holy Roman Empire and ruler of all things Hapsburg (Austria), so he might not be in the running, especially if Austria is in the game.

@Duuk: Good post on Napoleon.
 
Nobody read the good argument and the Civ3 entry (thanks to Monado in this post for that info) on why Xerxes is a bad choice, I guess. Not even the movie 300 can justify him being added after Firaxis has shown more maturity in choosing leaders.

On Pericles: I think Pericles is a better-known name for a Greek leader, and he's not just a "candy-name" (like Xerxes) either. Popularity should enter the equation when it comes to leader-choice, alongside actual accomplishments.
 
Joan d'Arc never lead France, Saladin never lead Arabia...

I did see this post coming ;).

Yep, i did not comment Joan since she had already been included in earlier civ (or neither Saladin). Of course, Celts/Vikings are also silly if i take (i do ;)) stance "should have lead the nation/country", etc. Dunno why, but making Cortés as Spanish leader seems even more wrong, esp. since they had actual king at the time (and so did Joan.. uncrowned, but king anyways). And IIRC Cortés got in troubles with "administration (king)" at later part of his career.
 
We know two

de Gaulle
Lincoln

For the rest, I'm hoping:

Robert The Bruce
Adolf Hitler
Hirohito

Dunno who could be the sixth.
We need Hirohito. C'mon.

I doubt we'll ever see Hitler because of how demonized he has become in our culture.

Don't get me wrong, there is no argument that Hitler was a terrible, terrible human, but I would submit to you that Civ 4 already has equally as bad (if not worse) leaders in it.

Stalin, for example, killed far more people than Hitler ever did and had very similiar policies to Hitler's Nazi Germany (hell, Stalin even purged a few Jews in his time) and the USSR was an Axis power at the beggining of World War 2.

Mao is another example. During his reign he was responsible for the deaths of about 50 million people, compared to World War 2 which caused about 60 million deaths.

Sure, Hitler was an aweful human, but you cannot deny that he is a historical giant and the game already contains a fair share of monsters (Isabella wasn't to nice a lady now, was she?).

I'm sure these points were made before, but it's 3 a.m. and I don't want to read through all these posts, sorry >.<
 
Oh, all these Hitler things.

As someone said before, Nazi in entertainment is illegal in Germany, and Germany is in the Westernized world (not some obscure, backwater country like China, no :rolleyes:).

Why do I bother? I'll swear off Hitler from this post forward. :)
 
I know that anything Nazi is illegal in Germany (hell, they have a government division dedicated to enforcing it). I forgot to point that out >.< I'm sure the Germans would be said not to be able to play BTS. The point I want to make is that Civ already contains 'bad guys' who are at Hitler's level, so the "OMFG ITS HITLER" argument doesn't really work.
 
Dzangiit~! Kan't abzten!

^
See post before yours.

The other "bad guys" aren't as demonized in pop culture as you-know-who.

Continue in the AH debate thread.
 
Three one-leader civs in particular are crying out for extra depth.

- Spain. Isabella's a darling, but I'm tired of seeing that peach blobling developing like Bhutan into a Buddhist theocratic backwater permanently 'annoyed' or worse with anyone not of the one true faith. We need a second, more laid-back Spanish leader, maybe Charles V or Philip II, with a Hereditary Rule fixation but less religious mania.

- Greece. Alexander was without doubt the greatest Greek leader but we need a second one to represent the city-states, culture, creativity, philosophy and democracy and Pericles or maybe Themistocles is the obvious choice.

- Japan. Meiji, perhaps, less arsey and more willing to trade than the infuriatingly isolationist Tojo.
 
Why Xerxes? Cyrus and Darius were far better leaders! Darius is the next good choice for the Persians...and he should probably be given the Organized trait for his work reorganizing the Persians, especially in Ionia.

Here's another alternative to Pericles: Epaminondas. Now, hear me out:

If you want a leader to represent Greece who is actually Greek, the most obvious choice seems to be the leader of the Athenians at their height in the 5th century BCE: Pericles. However, in the 4th century BCE, Thebes manages to take control of the vast majority of Greece, as the head of the Boeotian League. The major leaders of Thebes at the time were Pelopidas (the head of the Sacred Band) and Epaminondas (another general, but one more politically inclined). Epaminondas came the closest, I think, to uniting Greece under the Greeks, reduced Sparta to a second-rate power, and brought most of Greece under Theban influence. He's a solid contender, I think.

I'm going to throw in my name suggestions for France and Germany: Phillip Augustus for France and Barbarossa for Germany--both pre-Rennaissance leaders that don't get a lot of love on the boards. For Japan, I'm thinking Meiji myself, a more Industrial/Modern Japanese leader who wouldn't be a complete isolationist like Tokugawa--he's the figurehead of the modern image of Japan.

Can anyone tell my why Phillip II of Spain? Was he the bankrupt one or the incompetent one? If any leader should be added, I would suggest Charles V (or Carlos I, I think, by the Spanish succession). However, he became the Holy Roman Empire and ruler of all things Hapsburg (Austria), so he might not be in the running, especially if Austria is in the game.

@Duuk: Good post on Napoleon.

What do you think about Agisilaos of Sparta ?
 
Why not cheese and wine of France, they definitly control more people in France now than any leader has for at least a Century. I'm sure the only reason the French event "fought" in WWI was to save the wine.
 
What do you think about Agisilaos of Sparta ?

In general, I'm not a fan of proposing a Spartan to represent all Greece. They were an eccentric bunch, and when they had the chance to unite Greece they failed. Look at what happened after the Peloponnesian War, for example. I have to admit, I don't know much specifically about Agisilaos, but Sparta's behavior after the Peloponnesian War was anything but Pan-Hellenic. They basically replaced Athenian domination with Spartan (although that was largely Lysander's fault), and then caused Corinth, Thebes, Argos, Athens (revived from the dead), and just about everybody else to unite against them and throw them off. Sparta did have a brief, generation-long period of dominance, but it really wasn't as glamorous as Pericles' time was nor was it as successful as the Thebans. So I would stick with either Pericles or Epaminondas, in short.

The Athenian Pericles has the name recognition, although I was surprised to see Themistocles' name on the board. Although he was instrumental in building up the Athenian Empire (and the foil of the pro-Spartan Cimon), I would say Pericles first due to his building program (after all, the Parthenon, Propylaea, Temple of Nike, Temple of Hephaestus and many more great buildings were all built under his auspices), and the continued growth of the Athenian Empire...not to mention he wasn't a slouch in the field. If he hadn't died in that plague, or somehow the Athenians didn't listen to that golden-tongued Alcibiades, they may have won...
 
Agesilaos - in short - was the king of Sparta just before and through the Corinthian War. He fought the Persians in Asia Minor (quite succesfully), but then they agitated (read: paid) some Greek cities to "rebel" against Sparta in Greece and so he and his army had to return. Overall, he probably would be worthy, but he is not known and I think Greece deserves a more shiny name.

Why were you surprised of Themistocles? He is quite well known and "popular" as well, think Salamis, think that, etc. ... . Although - as said before - Pericles probably would be a better choice...

mi
 
How about Hitler of Europe, North Africa & Scandanavia.
 
Lincoln (Americans)
Jean d'Arc / de Gaulle (French)
Pericles (Greek)
Boudica / Vercingetorix / Ambiorix (Celts)
Xerxes (Persia)

controversial, but interesting personalities (sucky leaders but famous nonetheless):

Hitler (Germany)

Kim Jong Il (Korea, well north Korea, not really accurate)
Mussolini (but there isnt really a civ for him)

They put Stalin, Mao, Genghis Kahn,... in and I bet alot of the leaders in the game killed thousands of people. It's strange that only the modern, fascist leaders are not allowed.
 
Why can't people get enough of the WWII stuff that's already over-saturating (I love that word) the gaming market and "historical" documentaries?

"Historical," because apparently for a lot of people "history" spans from the dawn of man in 1939 to the end of time itself in 1945.

I blame mass media.
 
Agesilaos - in short - was the king of Sparta just before and through the Corinthian War. He fought the Persians in Asia Minor (quite succesfully), but then they agitated (read: paid) some Greek cities to "rebel" against Sparta in Greece and so he and his army had to return. Overall, he probably would be worthy, but he is not known and I think Greece deserves a more shiny name.

Why were you surprised of Themistocles? He is quite well known and "popular" as well, think Salamis, think that, etc. ... . Although - as said before - Pericles probably would be a better choice...

mi


I looked him up--another reason why the Greeks were so willing to rebel was the fact that Sparta was treating them like s***. After the Peloponnesian War, they proclaimed that freedom was restored, and then Lysander (who wasn't even a Spartan king) went around installing Spartan-friendly governments and garrisons. The war against Persia, to my understanding, was an attempt to restore that sense of pan-Hellenism that was lost following the Persian Wars (which Pericles wrapped up quite nicely). Agisilaos was at best ineffective and unable to control his general.

I was surprised by the name Themistocles because oh so often whenever I see Greece, I see Pericles. He was amazing, I'll grant that, but no debate has really been started over a new Greek leader (except for the brief mentions of Phillip II as a possible leader, but is usually rejected because nobody wants two Macedonians leading Greece). I guess I should say I'm happy somebody knows a little more about Greek history than the 300 movie and the name Pericles, and is willing to post about it.
 
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