While We Wait: Part 2

[alex994]

Iberian Spain has TWO, France has 3. But oh please, so what? China ONLY has three in comparison. Are you trying to say that the economic and trade capacity of China is equal to France? And Spain, France, Britain, Netherlands, and Ireland are JUST Western Europe and they have more then all of East Asia

And why should a capital always be a TC? Beijing is a capital as well, but she's not a TC. And in response abaddon, why should Madrid be a TC? It's the insular capital of the Spanish hidalgos, anything but trade orientated That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about, Europe incorrectly has a proportionally large amount of TCs compared to her trade output because there's more countries there Korea and Annam for example don't even HAVE cities!

 

[Azale]

Iberian Spain has TWO, France has 3. But oh please, so what? China ONLY has three in comparison. Are you trying to say that the economic and trade capacity of China is equal to France? And Spain, France, Britain, Netherlands, and Ireland are JUST Western Europe and they have more then all of East Asia

And why should a capital always be a TC? Beijing is a capital as well, but she's not a TC. And in response abaddon, why should Madrid be a TC? It's the insular capital of the Spanish hidalgos, anything but trade orientated That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about, Europe incorrectly has a proportionally large amount of TCs compared to her trade output because there's more countries there Korea and Annam for example don't even HAVE cities!

What? I don't see any EC's in IBERIAN Spain. Seville is the historical trade center of the Spanish Empire yet isnt an EC.

And yes, Western Europe should have more than East Asia.

 

[alex994]

What? I don't see any EC's in IBERIAN Spain. Seville is the historical trade center of the Spanish Empire yet isnt an EC.

And yes, Western Europe should have more than East Asia.

Having no clue what IBERIAN Spain is compared to just Spain, I'll pass I do note that there IS NO SPANISH EMPIRE AS IT WAS IN OTL, and thus Seville is obviously not a TC, obviously no American gold and silver pouring into her harbors eh?

Now you're just messing with me

 

[Abaddon]

excessive use of smileys is hurting me.. you can simply use a full stop you know as puctuation. Anyway... i think your missing the point... the TC's are obviously points of trade.. so every nation logically should have at least one, generally its capital it is not totally rubbish.. why it would need more within its own boundarys is beyond me. trade is between different nations, different parts of the world, and each nation needs some. Europe has by far the most nations (/splat india) squished together.. so obv. get a concentration there..

It would make no sense having multimany trade centres in China for example.. trading with who? intranational trade will occour without centres.. goods shifted from A-->B It is a CENTRE, not jus a city that obv. goods are needed.

hmm, im rambling, but for a TC, you need a reason.. justify the city as a trade centre, not just as a city and you'll get it. Europe has good reasons, a city in the middle of China does not.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Alex: I get your point and it is a Euro centric world. Most of the players are there. TPs become more important and preventing/destroying TPs have significantly more impact. Population will help a little; Asian nations tend to run 4, 5, 6 in population, Europeans 3-4. Maybe I will make population a bit more important. I can add a Central China (CC) region to represent inland China and give Asians easy access to it. Awarding partial value for areas, starts to make the management much more complicated. I am building a matrix with all VoD and all player nations that will allow me update VoD values as TCs and TPs are added. Those will flow to each nation's trade score and from there to its economy.

I could make Asian TCs have a 1.5 value vs 1.0 for European cities, or go th eother way and make European TCs worth .75 EP and Chinese 1.0.

Here is the current formula I'm working with:

Trade = ((EP value of VoD/10 + Population/2 + Economic freedom) /2) + TCs

I may drop the "/2" for pop. Once i get the matrix finished, then I will start testing to see how results change as I change the formula.

 

[Perfectionist]

Ah good, TCs are back in.

 

[Insane_Panda]

What are the cities of Paris, Madrid, London, Vienna, Berlin, Barcelona, Lisbon, and the other ECs of Europe compared to the cites of the Orient?

Cleaner, better planned, and generally nicer-looking

 

[Abaddon]

Bit worried that Genoa/Spain will gain a huge boost from their recent VOD exchange.. even tho in a lot of cases the VOD's have not even been sailed by their nation at all.

 

[Abaddon]

'Nother ball bouncing in my head.. now we will be no longer directly trading with nations..shame that level of diplomacy will be lost.

 

[alex994]

Cleaner, better planned, and generally nicer-looking

It's the 16th Century panda They make the cities of the Aztecs, minus the blood and death, look good

Abaddon, trade isn't just something between nations. There's something called internal trade that the Great British Empire was built on via India, the production of cloth and clothes in Britain SOLD in India? A part of the British Empire? I believe you're missing the point, as nations have internal trade as well, and NOT just foreign trade Also, do note that Genoa/Spain might not have it as well going since they need to have a TP in the region to get the trade And why the hell does a city in Europe compared to a city in China have good reason to be a TC while the Chinese city doesn't? More population serving as a consumer base, luxury and goods production and a center of trade in China. Oh no, Asia was ahead of the rest of the world's GDP for most of her existence because she relied on JUST foreign trade and didn't trade internally at all!

@birdjaguar, yes I know, but it doesn't stop me from stating it Perhaps the population bit should be more important though I do agree with the whole 1.5 Asian TCs as compared to the TCs in Europe, would show the "lucrativeness" of the Asian TCs as compared elsewhere. By Asia, I do not include the Middle East or Persia FYI , more along the lines of India, South-East Asia, Japan/Vietnam/China/Korea.

 

[Abaddon]

Hense a the capital being a trade centre.. why do you need more trade centres? I wouldnt have valued ALL of Englands Capitals to be worthy of TC status during the height of the Empire.. things would get silly if we were including internal trade.. you would have every coty in the world as a TC!

 

[alex994]

Hense a the capital being a trade centre.. why do you need more trade centres? I wouldnt have valued ALL of Englands Capitals to be worthy of TC status during the height of the Empire.. things would get silly if we were including internal trade.. you would have every coty in the world as a TC!

First of all, not all the capitols of the significant nations of Asia are trade centers And ah... I'm sure the British Empire at her height only had one Capital, that being London. I'm only pointing out that the international trade in Europe are very similar to the intra-provincial trades of many Asian countries and that just because Europe's trade is between nations while the ones in Asia are not, money is still money no matter what

 

[Azale]

Iberian Spain is the part of Spain located within the Iberian Peninsula

 

[Birdjaguar]

'Nother ball bouncing in my head.. now we will be no longer directly trading with nations..shame that level of diplomacy will be lost.

Bit worried that Genoa/Spain will gain a huge boost from their recent VOD exchange.. even tho in a lot of cases the VOD's have not even been sailed by their nation at all.

Lack of TPs limits the immedite value of such exchanges. Getting maps though would enable them to set up trading posts. Of course TPs are not needed to trade with Europe and probably not China and Japan (CJ), but both nations could decide to exclude trade in some fashion. Damn it is getting complicated again.

When I use the middle values below to calculate the global trade value of a TC, the spread between Europe and Asia closes. Sorry I cannot get collumns to stay in place below.

Area Multiplier #TCs in area.
NWE 0.75 12
MED 0.75 13
MC 0.5 5
IOS 1.25 7
SR 0.75 5
WCA 0.5 4
IP 1 3
ENA 0.5 3
CJ 1.25 4
ECA 1 2
ESA 0.5 0
WSA 0.5 2
ANZ 0.5 0
WNA 0.5 0
NP 0.25 0
SP 0.25 0
CA 0.5 0
CE 0.75 4
CC 1.25 1

Maybe The number of TCs a nation can have should be limited to half its population rounded up. Colonies would be additional. this again would tip favor to larger nations.

 

[alex994]

Iberian Spain is the part of Spain located within the Iberian Peninsula

Madrid... Barcelona... Spanish TCs...

And how exactly would nations trade with Europe? You can't establish TPs and colonies in them unfortunately

 

[Abaddon]

Maybe The number of TCs a nation can have should be limited to half its population rounded up. Colonies would be additional. this again would tip favor to larger nations.

There should be no limit, if the area can justify a TC, let their be one. No need to complicate this.

 

[The Strategos]

Birdjaguar, what do you see as being the downside of the "Economic Cities" system that is making you work so hard to avoid using it?

 

[alex994]

Yeah, what's so bad about economic cities?

And just because a country has a large population doesn't mean they can support more "TCs" and vice versa, see Russia and Netherlands. Complicated isn't it?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Birdjaguar, what do you see as being the downside of the "Economic Cities" system that is making you work so hard to avoid using it?

To just allow players to build TCs and that be how EP are calculated seems too simplistic. These rules have lots of "pieces" that I would like to use to build a nicely integrated "whole". I know I run the risk of making the game collapse under its own weight, but I think I can make it all work smoothly and easily for both players and mods.

To me it only makes sense that voyages of discovery and establishing trade overseas should be a big part of any game set in this ear and the best way to make players pay attention to those things is to make those aspects important. As the primary source of income, they suddently become important. I also know that if TCs are all that drive income, Abaddon will just build 50 of them as fast as he can. I don't like rules that can be easily exploited so I have to be the bad guy and keep telling people I won't allow something just because... I want to make your thinking more difficult and my job easier and more automated... until I have to write.

Also, if I can make the concepts work in this NES, they become transferable to others. A NES set in Ancient times could use similar rules for discovery and colonies.

 

[alex994]

Tsk tsk tsk, exploited rules are a sin and blot upon history. You can hardly explain how a nation got rich by exploiting the rules in a history book after all, and thus I refuse to engage my nations via those means

"How did Portugal get rich? Well, her King exploited the Rules of the Universe and God to create more money!"