While We Wait: Part 2

[jeps]

The Jews got greedy. End of story.

Bird, does that count my new TC (that I'm getting free) or not?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Are you sure that's right? Using the in-thread formulae, I get 9.

Trade: value of VoD/10 + pop/2 +econ freedom, then all /2 = 2.3625 =((Trade!B42/10)+(ROUNDDOWN(B848/2,0))+B868)/2

Economy = Nat Confid/3 + Rel + TCs +Trade - army upkeep
=ROUND(ROUNDDOWN(D850/3,0)+B857+B854+B858+B871-B866-E850,0)

Nat Confidence is now divided by 3.
Religion now set to 0 for economy

VoD: Ethiopia
Total 17.25
MED 6.5
ECA 2.75
IOS 8

 

[Birdjaguar]

The Jews got greedy. End of story.

Bird, does that count my new TC (that I'm getting free) or not?

No, you will get another TC, so I wil ladd it in now. You would go to 8 if things stay as they are.

Back in a bit

 

[Perfectionist]

Nat Confidence is now divided by 3.
MED 6.5

Ahh, that's why. And you decided to multiply MED by .5 rather than .75. Why has National Confidence been reduced in importance again? It's getting to the point where you shouldn't invest in any stats.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Ahh, that's why. And you decided to multiply MED by .5 rather than .75. Why has National Confidence been reduced in importance again? It's getting to the point where you shouldn't invest in any stats.

Yes. and that worries me. Another approach is to stop trying to control EP growth so much and just raise costs. I'm looking for a good balance of trade and internal stats for a well run nation.

I need to find ways to have Civil leadership, Education and Infrastructure have a greater impact on either EP or Military. Those are what most players care about. Maybe I'll add an "unrest" stat that changes as those stats change and when it reaches X level rebellions start.

 

[Abaddon]

WHY? why why why? If everyone makes more EP.. we all can spend it... you don't need to raise costs etc...

If i can raise 10 divisions or 1000 divisions it doesnt matter when my enemys can do the same. We are all judged by the same rules.

 

[alex994]

Again, I actually agree with abaddon

I stopped raising any of my stat levels (well, most of them) after they got hiked to 2 levels for 1 EP as it simply wasn't cost-effective. Again, I call for an income that derives from agriculture and industry to bring those into play and not just trade.

 

[jeps]

I agree as well, that if we all have more to spend, it isnt just ONE getting more, its all of us.

 

[alex994]

Trade: value of VoD/10 + pop/2 +econ freedom, then all /2 = 2.3625 =((Trade!B42/10)+(ROUNDDOWN(B848/2,0))+B868)/2

Economy = Nat Confid/3 + Rel + TCs +Trade - army upkeep
=ROUND(ROUNDDOWN(D850/3,0)+B857+B854+B858+B871-B866-E850,0)

Nat Confidence is now divided by 3.
Religion now set to 0 for economy

VoD: Ethiopia
Total 17.25
MED 6.5
ECA 2.75
IOS 8

You know, technically speaking Ethiopia doesn't have a TP on neither the MED nor IOS regions, but that's just nitpicking Nothing personal, but I am of the impression that Ethiopia was one of the main beneficaries of the past trade rules having in my opinion perhaps unjustly taken advantage of the trade rules. I mean, come on, historically speaking I doubt the ruler of Ethiopia had the same amount of wealth if not more than the Emperor of China, Mughal, Ottoman and etc

I'm not exactly advocating doing things by the case-by-case scenario, but it is kinda weird to have a nation such as Ethiopia to have such great wealth compared to the other nations of the world. Perhaps something should be done to keep things relatively in check? I really rather not have a million man Tibetan army under toteone storming out of Tibet or something similar to that happening again... *shivers* Realism should have some sort of influence. It's kinda hard to explain, but I hope you get the gist of it, Ethiopia was just an example I used.

 

[Birdjaguar]

WHY? why why why? If everyone makes more EP.. we all can spend it... you don't need to raise costs etc...

If i can raise 10 divisions or 1000 divisions it doesnt matter when my enemys can do the same. We are all judged by the same rules.

Again, I actually agree with abaddon

I stopped raising any of my stat levels (well, most of them) after they got hiked to 2 levels for 1 EP as it simply wasn't cost-effective. Again, I call for an income that derives from agriculture and industry to bring those into play and not just trade.

I agree as well, that if we all have more to spend, it isnt just ONE getting more, its all of us.

Yes and I've kinda given up on it in favor of the unrest idea. I will post about that shortly. It seems to be working by rewarding those who invest internally and hurting those who don't. It also give the government control stat a purpose.

You know, technically speaking Ethiopia doesn't have a TP on neither the MED nor IOS regions, but that's just nitpicking Nothing personal, but I am of the impression that Ethiopia was one of the main beneficaries of the past trade rules having in my opinion perhaps unjustly taken advantage of the trade rules. I mean, come on, historically speaking I doubt the ruler of Ethiopia had the same amount of wealth if not more than the Emperor of China, Mughal, Ottoman and etc

I'm not exactly advocating doing things by the case-by-case scenario, but it is kinda weird to have a nation such as Ethiopia to have such great wealth compared to the other nations of the world. Perhaps something should be done to keep things relatively in check? I really rather not have a million man Tibetan army under toteone storming out of Tibet or something similar to that happening again... *shivers* Realism should have some sort of influence. It's kinda hard to explain, but I hope you get the gist of it, Ethiopia was just an example I used.

Ethiopia gets IOS because the nation has a port on the red sea, the MED and NWE do not take a TP to trade in those areas just the VoD. Europe has so many ports and otions that foreigners can always find a place to trade. The same applies to the IOS.

IP and CJ are different because of the monoply power of Khmer and China over land and access. I think that a TP wil be required to count in those areas. That could change as player get more land or control in the area.

 

[Perfectionist]

Nothing personal, but I am of the impression that Ethiopia was one of the main beneficaries of the past trade rules having in my opinion perhaps unjustly taken advantage of the trade rules.

You are mistaken. At the present time, I am gaining a grand total of 2 EP from trade, compared to 8 from everything else. You are gaining far more from your TPs, which border on the exploitative.

I'm not exactly advocating doing things by the case-by-case scenario, but it is kinda weird to have a nation such as Ethiopia to have such great wealth compared to the other nations of the world.

My nation does not have more wealth than the rest of the world. My government has more resources than the rest of the world. Considering I have the highest Civilian Leadership, that is not so far fetched. The ability to effectively draw upon the wealth of a country is more important than the raw wealth of said country.

I mean, come on, historically speaking I doubt the ruler of Ethiopia had the same amount of wealth if not more than the Emperor of China, Mughal, Ottoman and etc

Historically speaking, the Emperor of Ethiopia spent much of the 1530s on the run. Obviously, things are different here.

 

[alex994]

@Perfectionist, yes, Khmeria does get a lot more money from TPs and I admit I am a bit muffed that they will no longer count towards income. But still, TPs require investment, VoD, as well as protection something I believe should be kept in unlike signing trade pacts with almost everyone and his sheep. I mean, nothing is required to start a trade route except signing something between two countries...

@bird, surely CJ should be open to specific nations even without a TP? I mean, I doubt the Chinese and Japanese would refuse the Khmer Empire along with the Indian nations, as well as the other nations that have been friendly towards them. The same goes for IP for Spain and Genoa, they shouldn't require a TP to gain access since the Khmer Empire grants them access...

EDIT: The only times I've seen a trade route cut is when the two nations go to war, or when I decided to cut the Portuguese trade with China to see if anything would happen.

EDIT2: On an entirely different note, perhaps religious centers should also give a culture/national confidence boost due to the spirituality of it all and the pride of owning it? In addition, I think secular states should still be able to get the +1 EP from religious centers since the state being secular doesn't stop the state from getting money from all those pilgrims, tourists and etc...

 

[Perfectionist]

EDIT2: On an entirely different note, perhaps religious centers should also give a culture/national confidence boost due to the spirituality of it all and the pride of owning it?

I was under the impression that they already gave a bonus to culture, but didn't give an EP bonus.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'll use Brandenburg as my example for the latest changes. Any further changes to Trade will have separte effects.

Civil leadership + Ed + Infrastructure = Nat Confidence
National Confidence no longer flows into economy

Unrest = Pop - Nat Con + Rel (a negative number now) + Gov Control
Low numbers are good here. If unrest gets larger than your population it has negative econ impact and could lead to worse. "Unrest" may need a better name.

If "unrest" is low enough, then EP are added to your economy.
Religion will only have a zero or minus effect on economy and will also lessen unrest (opiate of the people etc.) as it lowers the economy.

I will add a cost to change economic freedom and Government control since they will now effect Economy and Unrest.

Brandenburg/The Farow
Ruler: Joachim II
Religion: Protestant/Catholic
Population: 4 (will now affect trade, unrest and max army size)
Available Spending: 4/4 (Economy/Bank)
Economy/Culture/National Confidence: 4/4/5 (high Nat Conf. contributre to EP)
Leadership: 0/0/0 (Civilian/Military/Colonial)
Education: 2
Infrastructure (3 max): 3 0/4
Religion: -1/2 (Economy/Culture) (zero or negative numbers only for econ effect)
Unrest: 1/1 Level/EP loss/gain (can effect EP up or down, up in this case)
Religious Centers: 0
Trading Centers: 1 (Berlin)
Trade: 2.9 (changes as you gain access to new areas; contributes to economy)
Voyages of Discovery: (NWE) (value of these change as they are developed)
Army Confidence: 0
Army (Divs)/Navy (Sqds): 0/10
Army/Navy Quality: Professional/Recruits
Standing Army/Fleet Upkeep: 0
Divisions Overseas: 0 (not in colonies)
Overseas Army Cost: 0
Total Army Upkeep: 0 (Subtracted from Economy)
Projects: (+1 Civil Leadership, +1 Military Leadership)
Economic Freedom: 3 (affects economy)
Government Control: 3 (affects unrest)
Net Economic Freedom: 0
Wealth Transferred: (this will be more important)
Total # Colonies: 0 (Colonists/Wealth/Resources)

 

[Birdjaguar]

I was under the impression that they already gave a bonus to culture, but didn't give an EP bonus.

Yes, the add to culture.

 

[Perfectionist]

So, how is the effect of Unrest on Economy determined?

 

[Birdjaguar]

So, how is the effect of Unrest on Economy determined?

=IF(B179>B172,B179-B172,ROUNDDOWN((B179-B172)/2,0))*-1

If unrest > pop, then ep effect = unrest - pop; otherwise ep effect = (unrest - pop)/2 rounded down; then everything is times -1.

First effect is a positive number that goes negative
The second is a negative number halved that then goes positive.

I haven't checked China yet to see what happens there.

China seems to work; unrest is at 7; pop 10; Nat confid at 6 so it gets a plus 1 EP for a total of 9.

 

[alex994]

You are mistaken. At the present time, I am gaining a grand total of 2 EP from trade, compared to 8 from everything else. You are gaining far more from your TPs, which border on the exploitative.

Oh really? And how much am I gaining from my TPs that border on the exploitative? I have 16 TPs roughly 4 EPs that all go into paying various forms of military upkeep required to defend, garrison, and patrol them. I make nothing from my TPs as the cost of defending them are quite high, they exist to serve as bastions of Khmer culture and trade and funnel trade back to Khmer proper's TCs.

Those TPs required MONEY to establish, MONEY for the VoDs, and MORE MONEY to defend and garrison. Your trade routes required NONE of those, and were in effect almost freebies.

My nation does not have more wealth than the rest of the world. My government has more resources than the rest of the world. Considering I have the highest Civilian Leadership, that is not so far fetched. The ability to effectively draw upon the wealth of a country is more important than the raw wealth of said country.

Your civilian leadership is just one higher than mine and the fact that you had a lower population granted you greater capability to raise your internal stats. While it is higher, there should be some sort of a limit on how much a nation is able to make from the various stats. Also, where is Ethiopia's third TC? I'm afraid I'm unable to locate it in Ethiopia proper. Also, the following has nothing to do with Ethiopia actually, but I'm just bringing it up.

To connect population to the "internal" stats is in my opinion, in some ways flawed. The Chinese civilian bureaucracy, as well as the Indian scholar caste, in most times were excellent while the majority of the people in the country were uneducated. Population shouldn't affect civilian leadership, we're not recruiting the bureaucracy from the masses but the middle and upper classes who can afford a higher level of education.

Again, my calls for an income based on agriculture/industry, a form of income independent of trade is again ignored

 

[Birdjaguar]

Also, where is Ethiopia's third TC? I'm afraid I'm unable to locate it in Ethiopia proper. Also, the following has nothing to do with Ethiopia actually, but I'm just bringing it up.

To connect population to the "internal" stats is in my opinion, in some ways flawed. The Chinese civilian bureaucracy, as well as the Indian scholar caste, in most times were excellent while the majority of the people in the country were uneducated. Population shouldn't affect civilian leadership, we're not recruiting the bureaucracy from the masses but the middle and upper classes who can afford a higher level of education.

Again, my calls for an income based on agriculture/industry, a form of income independent of trade is again ignored

Thank you Alex, Khartoum is not on the map as it should be.

Pop size doesn't effect civilian leadership per se, just the ability of that leadership to manage the nation. More people increases the size and need an for efficiency and training. A growing pop will cost more to run and manage.

The recent changes get at some of what you want. Better CL, Ed and Infrastructure will improve EP. If youlook at the actual trade values they are quite small, in the 2-3 range. It is 2.3+ for Brandenburg. China's is at 5. Ep are mostly Trade + TCs + changes from unrest or lack of it.

Maybe "unrest" should be called "domestic economy"

For Khmer, that number is currently at +3. for a total of 6 EP. Once I tweak the trade, you should be back up to 8 or 9. Your current Trade is a 3.1. So 50% of your income is domestic.

BTW, you have got me started. Maybe I need an agriculture stat to be included with CL, Ed, and Infrastructure.

 

[alex994]

I think I'm actually out of things to nitpick on. I feel so sad now...