While We Wait: Part 3

Again, my argument presupposes they are not miraculously well-adapted to all possible environments they encounter and are not wholly self-sufficient, in which case their built-in biological processes will not be sufficient to sustain an advanced civilization (ie: they will need tools and food). If they require those things, they inherently require environmental modification of some capacity to produce. The more they need to adapt, the more modification is required. The more of them, the more similar modification is required. The more developed they become, the yet more modification is required.

Furthermore this is not a matter of behavior. Having humans as a role-model does not matter when determining the attributes of greed or shortsightedness. You will notice that I said life and genes are greedy. Life reproduces itself at the expense of other life. Its most basic function is survival and reproduction; that is in and of itself a greedy ambition. That infects all sentient actions because it's inherent to all life. You stare at the girl with a big chest or arse because your genes select for those traits as attractors for reproduction, not just because you happen to like chests or arses. Similarly with short-sightedness--there is no reason for a life form to generally consider consequences beyond its lifespan, because it'll be dead by the time it matters. Sentience mitigates that only so much, because most long-term trends tend to be obscured by noise and furthermore are difficult to observe by any one given set of individuals. This is why long-term events like soil-leeching or global warming are difficult to perceive.

So unless these hypothetical life forms don't possess instincts (or are possibly suicidal or capable of modifying their neural structure), and have lifespans on the order of several human lifespans, they will share many of the same foibles we do. On top of that, unless they are the ultimate adaptation to their environment, or capable of restructuring their genetics on the fly to adapt to it, they will require environmental manipulation, like tools, and flora and fauna brought under their dominance, with all the environmental footprint those things entail.

Certainly they have to share certain elements, and I do not deny they will modify the environment. What I argue is that it will not necessarily lead to a mass extinction, or something resembling that.

Also, to argue that genes "consider" only things during the lifespan of the organism that carries them -- this is simply not true. In much longer time periods, those organisms which are not adapted for long scale existence (those that have a habit of wiping themselves out by environmental ruination) will die out. There is just as much advantage... actually, far more advantage, in genetic predisposition to sustainability.

Life's functions as we might possibly recognize it are constrained by physical and chemical properties and interactions that place a limit on the ways in which it might function and behave, and thus however limited our pool of data might be we can in fact draw certain inherent conclusions about that life, such as its structure, composition, and natural requirements, and therefrom more mundane considerations; like eating.

Obviously, but as you'll note, life has managed to do all those things in many vastly different ways. Thus, I will suppose that a civilization can do the things necessary for its survival in a number of vastly different ways. Certainly, some base attributes will be the same, but building off of these could lead to any number of conclusions, only a few of which resemble humanity.

If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it...

If it isn't recognizable to humanity, and is thus undetectable, it for all intents and purposes does not exist as far as we are concerned

I did not say undetectable, merely unrecognizable. We can detect plenty of things and observe the changes that they perform on the environment around us without wholly understanding why or how they're happening.
 
As highly unlikely it is, Dafts mod is hardly realistic! why not for "fun" we allow a few to survive!



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As highly unlikely it is, Dafts mod is hardly realistic! why not for "fun" we allow a few to survive!

Why not just go off and create your own intelligent species in a different world? There's nothing preventing you. NESlife has, as a crucial component, competition between various life forms. Suppress that, and you'll lose something.
 
Certainly they have to share certain elements, and I do not deny they will modify the environment. What I argue is that it will not necessarily lead to a mass extinction, or something resembling that.

Also, to argue that genes "consider" only things during the lifespan of the organism that carries them -- this is simply not true. In much longer time periods, those organisms which are not adapted for long scale existence (those that have a habit of wiping themselves out by environmental ruination) will die out. There is just as much advantage... actually, far more advantage, in genetic predisposition to sustainability.
I did not say they did. However, any organism is capable of destroying itself when given a position similar to that of humanity.

For example, if you have deer in Yellowstone and no wolves, the deer have no natural predators, their numbers expand exponentially, and when a particularly harsh winter comes around, a great number of them starve to death. The deer is not intentionally wrecking its environment. It is an animal that has adapted to its climate very well for several millions of years; it's not inherently self-destructive. But it reproduces as long as conditions are favorable as much as it can. Similarly, a bacteria colony, allowed to grow unchecked, would out-mass planet Earth within a week. But that never happens because it's constrained by its own byproducts.

Organisms will expand when, where, and however they can. Sentient organisms doubly so, since they are fully capable of grasping what exactly is at stake. That is the number-one priority of a given lifeform: self-preservation, most chiefly of the individual. Over time less stable life forms will collapse, but that inherent bias will always remain, and when coupled with the ability to make decisions and evaluate their outcomes, can and will result in behavior that is negative for the group but positive for the individual.

"Better you than me," is and always will be the name of the game.
Obviously, but as you'll note, life has managed to do all those things in many vastly different ways. Thus, I will suppose that a civilization can do the things necessary for its survival in a number of vastly different ways. Certainly, some base attributes will be the same, but building off of these could lead to any number of conclusions, only a few of which resemble humanity.
A possibility, but the conditions that arise to produce a sentience capable of doing much of note are fairly restricted. It could be that a creature could come about that could concentrate heavy metals and thus didn't need to mine. One may look at the dolphin, elephant, or squid for examples of extremely intelligent creatures. But ultimately the creature must be fathomable by people--at least for the purposes of a game--to be of any use.

The trouble is that from the perspective of humans, as interesting as these creatures might be, they don't use tools--more specifically, they don't make tools that make tools. You are unlikely to see a dolphin, given however vast an evolutionary time period, build and pilot a spaceship. They have societies of their own that we can observe, yes, though we can't really interact well with them... but to our perspective they are ultimately boring, because they cannot get off the rock that spawned them, they cannot manipulate their environments in a large scale, and thus other than whatever ecological niche they fill, their existence beyond the reference frame of their ecological is trivial. If they were to go unobserved by some life form in a larger frame of reference before their extinction, their loss would be trivial; they may as well have not existed. They don't represent a potential for change in a larger-reference, and thus to a creature that does (ie: a human playing them in a game) they may as well be another beast. These statements obviously depend on the frame of reference in question, and I am assuming the human's frame of reference is in fact larger. Something with a bigger reference frame than humanity could see us the same way, but that's tangential.

Unless the creature does have that potential to alter its environment, either biologically or mechanically, it will ultimately be of little consequence to play as, because ultimately, the human does have to identify with it in a game.

Long-winded point condensed down, I believe the set of paths in which an organism might develop that is capable of doing that are much more limited than all the ways in which an organism might simply live and evolve, however successful it might be.

I did not say undetectable, merely unrecognizable. We can detect plenty of things and observe the changes that they perform on the environment around us without wholly understanding why or how they're happening.
Taking the above point, from a game standpoint, as a human will be dealing with these entities, the human must be capable of understanding them and utilizing them; otherwise they may as well not exist. From a realistic perspective, they exist, but their utility (materially or in terms of knowledge) is limited for however long they are unrecognizable or unfathomable.
 
Why not just go off and create your own intelligent species in a different world? There's nothing preventing you. NESlife has, as a crucial component, competition between various life forms. Suppress that, and you'll lose something.

we are talking about the progression into a completely different game.. where at some point several species turn into "satient"

if not his nes can go on forever as it is!
 
A few pages back, Lucky asked for a Modern Nes. Would you guys play something simple like this?

United States of America
Player: George H.W. Bush/NPC
Government: Representation
Ideology: Conservative
Distent: 40%
Base IC: 50
Military Spending: 30
Public Spending: 5
Private Spending: 15
Military: 45 Infantry Divisions, 15 Armored Divisions, 10 Marine Divisions, 5 Airborne Divisions
Navy: 45 Destroyer Squadrons, 20 Battlefield Squadrons, 15 Carrier Squadrons
Airforce: 30 Fighter Squadrons, 10 Bomber Squadrons

Yes? No? Maybe?
 
No I would not play with George H.W. Bush in power (Thats Bush Sr) in a modern nes. other problems as well, including the fact that there is no such thing as distent, let alone that 40% of Americans feel it. Perhaps you mean dissent (discontentment) or distant. Army/navy/economy are just arbitrary figures atm, with no research or thought put in. Finally, representation is not a government.
 
A few pages back, Lucky asked for a Modern Nes. Would you guys play something simple like this?
I'd be willing to deliberately sabotage something like that...
 
Well, this was thought of at the top of my head. These would not actually be the stats. Just an example
 
I certainly wouldn't. I can't say that your previous attempts have exactly filled me with confidence as to your ability, and modern NESes require great ability to pull off.
 
I certainly wouldn't. I can't say that your previous attempts have exactly filled me with confidence as to your ability, and modern NESes require great ability to pull off.

Harsh, but QFT.
 
Actually, without the accuracy, it would not be as fun.
 
Economic, labor, legal, cultural factors need to be taken into account.
 
A modern NES in the vein of BtS' Next War's story. Crazy and fun. EDIT: Nuke, I'd be willing to play provided that it will be indeed crazy and fun.
 
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