While We Wait: Part 6

[Birdjaguar]

Google Books has large pieces of "The History of the Art of War: Antiquity" by Hans Delbruck available on line here. He was a 19th C military historian who approached his work rigorously and in great detail.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MP...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Delbrück

 

[~Darkening~]

Anyone know of any books that discuss the evolution of early cities?

 

[Sheep]

The whole discussion about what makes a NES ''fun'' is completely ridiculous. People have different opinions, so while some people might like Symphony D's altra-realistic, super-detailed mega-NES, some people might not find it ''fun'' and might prefer the less complex and time-consuming SpNES.

There is no way that you can make something that appeals to everyone. There is no way that you can determine how good a NES is in terms of ''fun'', and say that one NES is ''x'' more fun then another, because it is a matter of opinion, and everyone's opinion is different.

Just one thing, there has never been such a nes from Symphony D.... there has only been talk about that nes. Perhaps we should focus on tangible things that have already occured, instead of thinking about a nes that hasnt been constructed and is likely to never be constructed as a mod just would not have time for the reasons stated by Amon before.

On another note its good to see that numerous people actually see what I see.

 

[Dachs]

Just one thing, there has never been such a nes from Symphony D.... there has only been talk about that nes. Perhaps we should focus on tangible things that have already occured, instead of thinking about a nes that hasnt been constructed and is likely to never be constructed as a mod just would not have time for the reasons stated by Amon before.

"Talk is cheap", eh? Isn't that the kind of thinking behind cowboy diplomacy?

 

[~Darkening~]

*Sigh*

...The way things are going, anyone wanna place bets on when the first NES Civil War breaks out?

EDIT:

I don't remember the name of the book but Abu-Lughod has written a lot on the topic. Look her up.

Thank you.

 

[Stormbringer]

Anyone know of any books that discuss the evolution of early cities?

I don't remember the name of the book but Abu-Lughod has written a lot on the topic. Look her up.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

A NES with satisfied players is a succesful NES. A NES with very happy players is a brilliant NES. The. End. There is no reason to measure it. Regarding BJs post, I'm supporting him, as most players are satisfied when a) the NES is entertaining mixed with b) the NES lasts a little long. Note, they are satisfied, they enjoy it.

I think there's a confusion of causality here. A good NES makes happy players. We can all agree on that. However, to say that happy players "make" a good NES is meaningless. Happy players might imply a good NES, but it's the NES that makes the players happy, not the other way around.

However, when you're trying to figure out how to make a good NES, the advice "make your players happy" isn't all that useful. It's a good ultimate goal, but it leaves the intermediate steps up to the mod. Furthermore, the four styles of NESing are preferred by different segments of the population, so you can't make all of your potential players happy with one NES.

So the solution, in my opinion, is to have an unbiased, subjective rating system that spells out the qualities in each particular NES. Simulationists can restrict themselves to the super-high realism ones, while Arcaders can join freer, more abstract games. Storyists can join highly complex game worlds, while Boardgamers can opt for pure tactical action. Rating NESes as universally "good" or "bad" is obviously futile, but we can say that a NES is realistic, or flexible, or novel in its mechanics without getting all dictatorial.

These are the things that can't be measured by raw stats alone, and they work as a tool for both players and mods. A player who wants fast updates and loose rules can find such a game without having to do the research himself, and a mod who wants to make the deepest, most epic NES possible can check an archive for inspiration from old NESes that are similar to what he's aiming for. It can be fair, it can be informative, and it can be useful, and I really don't know what else you could ask for. At the very least, it's worth a try.

 

[Masada]

The whole discussion about what makes a NES ''fun'' is completely ridiculous. People have different opinions, so while some people might like Symphony D's altra-realistic, super-detailed mega-NES, some people might not find it ''fun'' and might prefer the less complex and time-consuming SpNES.

There is no way that you can make something that appeals to everyone. There is no way that you can determine how good a NES is in terms of ''fun'', and say that one NES is ''x'' more fun then another, because it is a matter of opinion, and everyone's opinion is different.

Kol, now before you waltz in and declare that the argument is ridiculous, please, oh please make sure you’re on the same page as everyone else. Symphony has actually agreed that not all people find his style of NESing fun, if you had bothered to read the argument, we are not in the world of the wholly subjective and wholly ridiculous here. Das, myself, and others have remarked that fun is an unfortunate word, but lets get this fact down, reviews would be based on the relative merits of the individual NES. We are not marking fun we are looking at the merits of the NES itself compared to other NES’s of substantially the same type, and even then discretion is a beautiful thing because we may have opinions. Fun might come into it, but that is not the critical thing we are looking at.

I find watching paint dry fun... you might not… but if you were to be a reviewer and compare the relative merits of watching pain dry you would wonder what I liked about watching paint dry. This might be aided because because my paint drying club is fairly small and with minimal effort you could discern what the other paint dryers like. Sure you won’t hit it perfectly every time, but broadly speaking you can infer if the paint dryers would like it or not. There might be acrylic fangirls and oil fanboys... but you can use something lovely called human intellect to make an informed decision, and you can use caveats, acrylic fangirls will not like this oil paint but they might appreciate its stark simplicity. It’s not rocket science it’s a simple process, I’m sure you’ve done it for English, you read a book, compare and contrast it compared to other books, raise some questions about its construction, and generally post a “I did or did not like this” at the end. And if your feeling really mind-blowing you might actually make an essay about it… with a turn of argument!

We are not modelling in detail human preference, we are doing exactly what movie reviewers and book reviewers do, provide an opinion backed up by facts, on the relative merits of the genre, with some concise commentary. Any reviews would be open to public criticism, and heck open to a secret ballot style system of rating? The lets not step on anyone's toes, and this is not a simulationist takeover seem to have been missed in a hail of scorn for Symphony D’s affront to propose change.

 

[Sheep]

The thing is that these opinions should not be given in the way that you express my friend, but rather as I advocate they should be given by the mods of the individual neses themselves. This is all about trying to forestall the endless arguments that your espoused system would spawn as already indicated by this thread.

 

[Daftpanzer]

*Sigh*

...The way things are going, anyone wanna place bets on when the first NES Civil War breaks out?

I wish to express that I share such sentiments. Good hatred and anger are not to be wasted over such minor disagreements.

The negative vibes emanating from this thread are causing symptoms including nausea and convulsions among the space hamsters. Look. Just look. You did that.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

The thing is that these opinions should not be given in the way that you express my friend, but rather as I advocate they should be given by the mods of the individual neses themselves. This is all about trying to forestall the endless arguments that your espoused system would spawn as already indicated by this thread.

No one can rate their own work objectively, and mods might advocate their NES on what they're aiming for, rather than what they've achieved. In any case, most arguments aren't so bad; I prefer to call it "discussion." Hopefully there'd be a lot of constructive criticism and such. And I suppose that mods who were absolutely, completely opposed to the system would be able to ask to be excluded, though hopefully a consensus could be reached between the reviewers and the mod before that point.

As to the flamewars, it seems like they're more due to posters that take issue with Symphony and his inflammatory style than to the subject matter itself. Civil discussion about NESes has never been impossible.

 

[Masada]

Hypno-Hamster. I will also note that all instances of the rise of Facism and Communism can be attributed to the rise of Hamsters as pets...

 

[Communisto]

If I may intrude on the extremely important argument for sake of shamelessly plugging this thread in hopes of feedback. Yeeee.

 

[~Darkening~]

The negative vibes emanating from this thread are causing symptoms including nausea and convulsions among the space hamsters. Look. Just look. You did that.

BAD VIBES????? Agads! That is like, so uncool man! Just thinking about those poor little British-Hamsterians and their suffering has upset my vibe-o-meter! And to think- they just want some love. How sad, man.

.

 

[Amon Savag]

I doubt any civil war could break out. We can't really shoot eachother here.

Some people can rate their own work objectively. Because you can't doesn't mean noone can, Chan.

I can already see the history of this noble venture before my eyes, before it even happens. It'll go the route of american journalism. Starts out noble, and everyone tries to be objective. Then of course some people start working on their agendas... And then we have the loudmouths who believe themselves to be the only arbiters of truth (This doesn't remind me of anyone at the moment ), who rudely object to any criticism of their own criticism, and strike down NESes because they personally didn't have a feal for it.

Isn't it better to just allow people to draw their own damn conclusions, based on their own experience?

On a funnier note, one of the most occuring criticisms that there will be, I'm sure, is "It's a shame this NES didn't last longer"

 

[silver 2039]

Also, Silver, I was India in my 1st NES. HA!

I invaded India in my first NES. Twice.

Singapore Times
October ‘54
In a complete surprise to the rest of the world the Chinese Army has crossed into Nepal. The massive army took only a week to occupy the country. The Government of Nepal called on its allies in the Asian Alliance, and all answered the call. India, Sri Lanka, and Thailand declared war on China and the Indian army prepared to re-take Nepal. This however was exactly what the Chinese command has hoped for and two other massive Chinese armies swung into position occupying parts of Northern India and fighting for more. The casualties are unprecedented as both nations throw their massive armies at each other and both refuse to give up fighting as thousands die for the rocky passes of the Himalayan Mountains. So far it appears the advantage is on the side of the Chinese, but that can change quickly. The terrain makes it difficult for the Chinese to move tanks into India.
China: -12,000 infantry, -20 tanks, -100 Mig20s, -30 Il-5s,
India: -18000 infantry, -54 tanks, -30 bombers, -12 interceptors, -22 fighters

Delhi Times
War Grows Bigger
Just as the nations of Pakistan and India were about to conclude peace with the help of WC and USA negotiators news came: China intervened. Chinese forces swept through the border and occupied the area known as Aski Chyin in northern Kashmir. Negotiations on what to do broke down, but India and Pakistan signed a cease fire at pre-war borders with exception of Kashmir, and desided to both deal with the Chinese problem seperatley.

Poor India.

Do you guys have any specific reasons you NES? Like, for example, I NES to keep my mind off puberty...

Puberty was the greatest thing to ever happen to me. Certain activities became infinitely more pleasurable (albeit messy) than they were before.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Some people can rate their own work objectively. Because you can't doesn't mean noone can, Chan.

I'd be delighted to see your evidence that I'm less capable than anyone else at rating my own work.

I can already see the history of this noble venture before my eyes, before it even happens. It'll go the route of american journalism. Starts out noble, and everyone tries to be objective. Then of course some people start working on their agendas... And then we have the loudmouths who believe themselves to be the only arbiters of truth (This doesn't remind me of anyone at the moment ), who rudely object to any criticism of their own criticism, and strike down NESes because they personally didn't have a feal for it.

Perhaps you missed the part where I explicitly suggested that any mod who didn't want to be a part of this wouldn't have to be. If a reviewer were to have any power at all to strike down a NES, then maybe you'd have a point. At the moment, I already see a mod attempting to strike down the system, rather than the other way around. I should also note that as the one suggesting that everyone put Symphony D. on their block list, you don't exactly have a leg to stand on when it comes to objecting to criticism.

Isn't it better to just allow people to draw their own damn conclusions, based on their own experience?

Sorry, Amon, but not everyone is as experienced as you. Some of us don't remember how it was back when NESes were good.

On a funnier note, one of the most occuring criticisms that there will be, I'm sure, is "It's a shame this NES didn't last longer"

I don't think anyone's claiming that a NES lasting for many updates is a bad thing.

 

[Dachs]

Some people can rate their own work objectively. Because you can't doesn't mean noone can, Chan.

So you're more experienced than Azale, silver, myself, and Symphony? Despite, you know, being gone a lot? (Oh, and apparently not being able to decide whether you've lost one war or two.) And as for modding, thirteen pages of NES and it's the best thing since sliced bread? That doesn't sound too objective to me.

And then we have the loudmouths who believe themselves to be the only arbiters of truth (This doesn't remind me of anyone at the moment )

Reminds me of you, actually, declaring what is and is not a NES.

EDIT: Aaaah, crosspost.

 

[~Darkening~]

Posted by Amon Savag
I doubt any civil war could break out. We can't really shoot eachother here.

Meh. A percentage of the population is increasingly getting volatile, and instead of having logical reasons for such, it is more often than not something that doesn't even relate to the issue at hand of the discussion. Arguments that have nothing do with anything are brought up, doing little more than fanning the flames. I see eventually that this percentage, driven to the point by personal conflict, will seek a way to remove their source and by this will more than likely head for greener pastures. It wouldn't have to be a large number of people for this to happen; a small group could be successful in establishing a offshoot if devoted fully instead of existing between two forums.

Then again, maybe its that paranoid factor of mine that's playing in again, but I see the future differently.

 

[Symphony D.]

A percentage of the population is increasingly getting volatile, and instead of having logical reasons for such, it is more often than not something that doesn't even relate to the issue at hand of the discussion.

I definitely agree with this part.