Whipping paradise start

[Manco Capac]

@Tachywaxon

I really need to start stealing more workers.

[...]

Regarding your game, You lucky bastard/ess, charlie built you two wonders, just fogbust for god sakes, and survive ragnar. Camels come with guilds, right. Revenge me...

Honestly, I don't know what to think.
Between one on acid interpelling me specifically (don't try to understand, I won't be clearer) and the others who are sarcastic, or real offenders, I will take your post as normal.

Stealing a worker from barb is a rare event and that is why I wanted to share.
Probably the TGLH is possible, but with some losses I guess (ignore granary, all focus on the wonder, etc.), but I didn't wish to sacrifice too much for a random wonder like that one. In one game, we see sick 2000BC, in other like that deity Toku (AZ has a vid on this as memento), he got it extremely late.

Yes, I admit I was very lucky that worker appeared thanks to city spawn. That 60 was like receiving something big in a goody hut. Only difference, I chose to commit to steal the worker, while the barb city was a heaven gift.
Just like a mining resource popping, it can be gamebreaking.

I know you did gave up on this attempt, but didn't AZ persisted (Deity Toku) because he wanted so bad to win. Yes, the conditions are quite different between survival and a whim to get a wonder, but at the same time, I praticed different opening to see fishes are better than AH right away.

All I wanted is to tag along because I want to learn deity too...on random settings.
You looked to be either a deity player or an aspirant one. Shame everyone ignored that game.

Props with Gilgamesh. I guess you broke the 300 BPT at 1 AD; Gilgamesh is such a nice leader I ignored him when I roll him.

You pity SGOTM...

You sure about micro or is it another sarcasm.
Micro is good without a strict line of grandstrategy; otherwise, you need a very solid grandstrategy to make up the losses like automating workers.
When a worker offers himself as sacrifice to a barb when roading from point A to B, then one understands micro has its merits.

Btw, how does one steal workers without dying to nearby archers. When do they not attack? If you have all those rules code digged summed up somewhere, I would really appreciate.

Well, I don't have any code behind although I may fetch someone who can helps me.
Archers need to defend the city, otherwise there won't be left defender when using baits (warriors).
Perhaps, later I will bring a debugger notice (a special mode of the game where most game behaviours are revealed); I'm sure the archers have a specific task called CITY_DEFENSE which means garrison without attacking.

Camels come with guilds, right. Revenge me...

Yes, I know camels are ironless/horseless knights. That would be my first knight rush ever,

Spoiler :

but Charlie with castles and possibly stone (how explaining his knack for stone wonders)

, not very attractive.

Revenge me?

 

[shakabrade]

Honestly, I don't know what to think.
Between one on acid interpelling me specifically (don't try to understand, I won't be clearer) and the others who are sarcastic, or real offenders, I will take your post as normal.

But ofcourse I tried to understand and surpass two language barriers. First one was mine English --> Croatian, and then I figured you could also have a language barrier since I consider you more of French than English due to so many grammatic errors (assuming you didn't lie about Quebec). And I didn't figure anything. Actually only had a random thought how one could use acid to turn random events in RL on.
I'm just a regular everyday normal guy for the purpose of this forum and troll moderately. Unlike Zx. Hence, you can always take my post as normal. Sarcasm is the most generic humor and I rarely practice it.

I know you did gave up on this attempt, but didn't AZ persisted (Deity Toku) because he wanted so bad to win. Yes, the conditions are quite different between survival and a whim to get a wonder, but at the same time, I praticed different opening to see fishes are better than AH right away.

Could try again now that I've finished my Gilg game. 1645AD UN win. Very relaxing game due to peaceful neighbours. And didn't build any wonder. Had 2000bpt but had to nerfe it for diplomacy (suboptimal civics). Makes me brag all day and put screenies, but it would not be decent. Duckweed would have probably had 13000bpt if he wouldn't have had already won this game with 1000AD space race.

All I wanted is to tag along because I want to learn deity too...on random settings.
You looked to be either a deity player or an aspirant one. Shame everyone ignored that game.

Well people generally ignore uncooked deity, unless marathon, and all the best players are busy with SGOTM so I understand. The irony of this game is that I usually discard too good starts like this one, and then I got killed immediately. Although I play 80% of my games on deity, I win 30% of the games so I don't know where does that leave me (I don't do AP wins). More of an aspirant, I'd say. But this time last year when I was aspiring deity player, I played Emperor.

Props with Gilgamesh. I guess you broke the 300 BPT at 1 AD; Gilgamesh is such a nice leader I ignored him when I roll him.

Well if you count building research...

You sure about micro or is it another sarcasm.
Micro is good without a strict line of grandstrategy; otherwise, you need a very solid grandstrategy to make up the losses like automating workers.
When a worker offers himself as sacrifice to a barb when roading from point A to B, then one understands micro has its merits.

I wasn't sarcastic. It really proved that micro had a lot more impact than I realized.
For example, it let me settle two cities turn or two before my neighbours. A huge impact on the game and grandstrategy as well.

Revenge me?

Just a bad attempt to be funny.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Hello people, long time no post ; long time no civ as well. So take my views with a grain of salt.
Especially since I'm no deity player and, after playing this map to 575 BC... eek ! It's gonna be hard ! If they're not obsolete by then, I think I'll draft myself some camel archers to overcome the terrible odds.
There are some serious land powers and I doubt I can keep a tech lead for a long time (oh really ? Am I in the lead ? Better forget...). The blue one in the south is already scary as hell with 12 cities, a raised red fist and the tech lead (yeah... that sounds more likely). The other blue, I hope to befriend. The yellow one blocked me all around : major land target for our resourceless UU. He's all backwards for now but I don't think I have time to conquer him, given the other rivals. Kinda hoped to do so with Catapults : it won't happen.
So much for the asinine intro.

Spoiler :

I didn't feel we had an "early" whipping paradise. Too many workboats to build and too light a happy boost. Not to mention the starting techs, far from favourable. I haven't pastured the pigs yet, nor improved the clams in the capital.
I went Oracle -> CoL with 3 cities + a lone worker. Then the capital got itself an academy and I caught up a little with expansion (to 6 cities and I'll settle a last one).
The worker was built at size 2 (grew on Stonehenge to start) and both settlers at size 3 with 2 chops in.
Tech path : Fishing, Mining, Bronze, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing, Alphabet. Then I did some partial research into Monarchy and grabbed Currency. Prolly Civil Service next and then Lib race to... Rifling, I guess. Or maybe towards Steel.
Trades brought in Maths, Monarchy, the small techs and I hope to get Calendar from Mansa in a few turns.
Short term objective : grow Mecca to where it belongs.

Couple of screens :

Spoiler :

Well, that's my take on it. I'll play it further, that's an interesting map.

 

[shakabrade]

Second attempt:
As picture says thousand words:

Spoiler :

 

[shakabrade]

@BornInCantaloup

Glad to see you joining this hell of a map. It was supposed to be more easy, I admit, but RNG put some fast techers and gave them a lot of land. And Sury which is probably the best AI in my games so far. I'd actually like to have Monty or Shaka on this map to slow the whole thing down.

Third attempt:

Spoiler :

Somehow Ragnar didn't attempt to kill me immediately but his intensions are obvious. Got GLH around 1600BC and even managed to squeeze a city and two workers before that. Then I went into REX mode but had to make some heavy garrison which really costs me much. Settled the most eastern city near copper. Got a GM and GPro from Mecca, GM brought 1100 gold and GPro was settled in Mecca. I'd rather it was GS and an Academy. Gold from trade mission was mostly used to get me to Feudalism since I don't feel safe from Ragnar.
He made me steer from building NE in Mecca and running a billion scientists.

I don't know what to do now. I am even considering making a few catapults and declare on Ragnar so he suicides his stack at my garrison city. If only I had Iron or Phants. I really want to kill him. Should I go for trebs? Mansa could backstab me then. I should really obtain some iron.

 

[Manco Capac]

I can't be lengthy this right now, but that is quite unfortunate Ragnar had to DoW. Made the mistake to divert his stack, which made him retreated. I fear to see it once again much stronger. The barb city was captured by Charlie. No strategic resources situation sucks.

@Shakabrade

Hmmm...getting TGLH is such a boon. And look at that horizontal expansion. Quite nice.

Spoiler :

Mao...I haven't seen him yet.

 

[shakabrade]

I can't be lengthy this right now, but that is quite unfortunate Ragnar had to DoW. Made the mistake to divert his stack, which made him retreated. I fear to see it once again much stronger. The barb city was captured by Charlie. No strategic resources situation sucks.

@Shakabrade

Hmmm...getting TGLH is such a boon. And look at that horizontal expansion. Quite nice.

Spoiler :

Mao...I haven't seen him yet.

Spoiler :

Sorry to hear that. Yeah, no strat resources sucks. Nice garrison, btw. You'll need a lot of luck, though.

I have made a decision in my game. The most important skill deity player has is having no pride nor honor. Ragnar in my game has 18 cities and no amount of hatred from my side will ever defeat him. So, I have converted to his religion and now have to watch my back from my ex friend charlie. At least until my soon to be Ragnar, Mansa, me alliance crushes him. Therefore, I will tech engineering and machinery and bribe Raggy and Mansa into attacking Charlie. I hope to take a lot of land from him and make him capitulate to me, I hope. And then Sury is next. I hope it works out. Hope is all I have left.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Some tough luck with the DoWs, there.
I'm not sure how to avoid them that early, especially with such a warlike AI involved.
My guess is that not expanding west with the first few cities reduces the risks. Not a fail-proof solution but I suspect that settling locations are a contributing factor. Better have those AIs on REx mode than war mode.

 

[Manco Capac]

My guess is that not expanding west with the first few cities reduces the risks. Not a fail-proof solution but I suspect that settling locations are a contributing factor. Better have those AIs on REx mode than war mode.

Spoiler :

Funny fact is once I settle on DH next to wheat, Ragnar started plotting on me. Personally, although spectacular site, this is a perfect choke to protect the rest of the empire from his grip.
Anyways, I prefer steal one location from him than letting him get away with more than 12 cities peacefully. In my game, he got 10 cities while Joao snatched a nice 12 cities.

 

[Manco Capac]

Not really. That game is depressing.

Spoiler :

I know going for GLib without marble isn't a good move, but just a little more...nah, Qin got it just like a whole lots of other wonders.
At least, I survived quite easily the first waves of Viking soldiers and later he was ready to speak affair: I readily gave him Aesthetic for free. Imagine, he started amassing a huge stack and he could train war elephants.
Good new, he converted to Buddism. If he converts soon to HR, then I may assure my back from my neighbours and Mansa rarely goes after someone, he likes to backstab instead and he is cautious with me.


I should have hold back my usual whine as I forgot the barb city captured by Charlie had >10 tiles under my control, which means after 4 turns, he liberated that city to me.
100+60 free by RNG and this strip of land was secured for free too. Definitely equivalent to MC from a goody hut.



Here I am now. GLib lost. Cottage is the only issue now. Seriously, how Obsolete would get away with such start, I wonder?

I should have gone gone for Shwedagon Paya (doubled by gold), but it was gone fast thanks to Sury. He had gold too. Early Pacifism rocks on some occasions, but the cost due to the stack of archers won't be unnoticed.

Seriously, I don't know where to go from this position. It is lame. Some wonderhogger and techwhore here, and the other side I am pummeled by bullies.

150 BC => 126 BPT (-67 GPT)



And why the hell I am teching Music; I know the GArtist is gone! I should go for Theology, tech trade with Charlie, let him build the wonder and get juicy 4 per city.

It's gonna be too late now, Christian founder Sury may beeline that wonder.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Tachywaxon :

Spoiler :

Funny fact is once I settle on DH next to wheat, Ragnar started plotting on me. Personally, although spectacular site, this is a perfect choke to protect the rest of the empire from his grip.
Anyways, I prefer steal one location from him than letting him get away with more than 12 cities peacefully. In my game, he got 10 cities while Joao snatched a nice 12 cities.

Agreed, I didn't intend to offer a win-win alternative. Rather a win-lose alternative to another win-lose option.
(Either pay unit upkeep or forsake some land ; the former bites now, the latter will bite you later.)
Securing a fine chokepoint is a strong move.

@ shakabrade :

Spoiler :

I don't know what to do now. I am even considering making a few catapults and declare on Ragnar so he suicides his stack at my garrison city. If only I had Iron or Phants. I really want to kill him. Should I go for trebs? Mansa could backstab me then. I should really obtain some iron.

In your stead, I'd be wary of falling backwards in tech. It is challenging - and sometimes impossible - to balance war effort and tech progress. With a late Engineering and several strong rivals, staying in the tech race is a must. Of course, land is a factor for that purpose as well...
It's hard to tell whether Engineering is a good idea or not without knowing the tech situation.
Also, you haven't scouted Ragnar, yet. As long as you haven't and you lack your key techs, I would consider Charlie and Mansa as other potential targets. Mansa a bit less likely because of his shared borders with Sury (Sury caping Mansa = bad).

That said, siege wars allow some easier casualty management than mounted ones, which reduces the need to whip your cities to death. In that light, Engineering is appealing.
I considered it for myself but deemed I wouldn't have enough infra ready & was affraid of Sury/Ragnar going over the top while I went below the ground.
The absence of iron is also crippling (Merchant bulbing Metal Casting to get somewhat early Crossbows would have been cool). Without iron, you kinda need macemen : that adds some serious beaker cost to your war techs.

With Feudalism already researched, I would consider going for Guilds. Either via GM bulb (you'll have the prereqs soon, only lack CS and Machinery if Metal Casting is for trade) or hard research if you're late on infra. You should be able to farm a GM quite fast, right ?
But then again, assess according to the bigger picture, not only because of a single target

If you want to stay safe, focus on powering up research, imho.

@ Great Lighthouse :

Spoiler :

I'm not sure the GLH is so great on this map. To start with, Saladdin is an ill-suited leader to build it. And then the opportunity cost is gigantic :
- 250 hammers, we all know that ;
- Sailing + Masonry is a very expensive combination of techs. Even more so since Masonry is useless as a worker tech, here. It is worthy to note as well that neither of these techs lead us towards Writing/Alpha. Delaying the tech trades should also be considered as a beaker cost.
I wouldn't know how to develop on this argument but that is the line of thought that led me towards the Oracle : it is both cheaper in beakers and hammers and on a useful tech line. Alphabet is a major tech target if you don't want to research all the worker techs (which, I believe, you shouldn't want on Deity difficulty).

After those thoughtful comments, I'll go back to losing my game

 

[Manco Capac]

@ Tachywaxon :

Spoiler :

Agreed, I didn't intend to offer a win-win alternative. Rather a win-lose alternative to another win-lose option.
(Either pay unit upkeep or forsake some land ; the former bites now, the latter will bite you later.)
Securing a fine chokepoint is a strong move.

Spoiler :

There is a way to gain sure peace with Ragnar: city gift for +1 liberating and +4 fair trade. If not plotting yet of course. The early cost is of course huge.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Played to 50 B.C. and whouch ! What a crazy city Never saw anything like that :

Spoiler :

+1 pop per turn is scary when it lasts 6+ turns in a row...
I've just gotten my hands on Metal Casting, so there is no Forge yet, despite the hammer needs. A chop just came in. Maybe I'll insert the Forge before the Harbour. The last two forests I was reluctant to chop before Grocers but I guess I need the production and the mature cottages.
2 cities were set on warrior duty to keep the city happy. Compass was researched to keep it healthy.
Next turn a Confucean missionary will (try to) spread the 4th religion.

The set was :

Spoiler :

- Sury declared war on Mansa. Charlie remained super backwards.
- catch up in worker count (from 4 to 8, that will do for now).
- 7th city never came. I planned to share the southern pig from Mecca but didn't anticipate it would grow so fast.
- research Civil Service (Bureaucracy), Compass (+3 health harbour), Litterature (Nat Ep ; G. Lib probably isn't worth it given the food in Mecca ; I could have a shot at it, though : Joao is the only AI knowing Litterature and he was ahead of me by one turn only... Not sure if he has marble) + invest some turns in various techs to get cheap trades.
- exploration to the west to find Joao's lands and infect him with Confucianism (found Qin who is Confu already, just like pleased Ragnar). I found a spot with Clams+gold+horses near Ragnar but lost it while I was busy building workers.
- Wait for my 2nd GP : a priest to shrine Confu or a scientist to bulb Philosophy. Turned out to be a scientist that I got... 1 turn after Sury founded Philo. Maybe I'll bulb some of Education, then.
- hooked up my resources then laid down cottages. Resource trades brought in a nice profit. Mansa is willing to trade Iron : good to know. Ragnar will trade horses if I get him to Friendly status.
- Smaller cities got some infra. I'm aiming Granary + Lighthouse + Madrasa/Forge + Barracks (insert Universities).

Now I may go for Music or straight to Education. The free Artist + trade bait is appealing. I had to stop while playing but... Having written that, I favour Music. And prolly Forge -> Nat Ep -> Monasteries in Mecca (insert University).

I'm not sold yet on the Liberalism target.
Riffling requires Banking, which is annoying unless I get a great prophet.
Steel has a much lighter beaker requirement, which is appealing. Easy bulbs with great scientists in both cases.

Screenies :

Spoiler :

Game ain't won but maybe I won't lose it. I hope Mansa doesn't get crushed soon.
Save is attached if you wanna peek in. Forum says saves are best.

 

[shakabrade]

After attempting UN which I built in 1480AD, winning which was certain until ragnar vassalized my friend joao 15 turns before voting for diplomatic victory, and realization that I don't have obtainable uranium for nukes to ''control'' the population and gain those 100 votes ragnar stole from my game, I was mad and said to myself that I'll reload at 200AD and attempt different victory from there. A few hours of careless play later saladin in parallel universe achieved:

Spoiler :

At least we now know it is winnable.

I've had enough of this strat resource poor map.

I have also added 200AD save View attachment Shakabrade AD-0200.CivBeyondSwordSave, 1610AD save View attachment Shakabrade Saladin Final Save.CivBeyondSwordSave (when I realized it was game over), and save from reloaded culture victory attempt View attachment JBT.CivBeyondSwordSave.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Nice, Shakabrade
Going culture is a fine idea when we're so cramped for land.

To 450 AD :

Spoiler :

I just got invaded by Charlie (400 AD) and lost a city to him (450 AD)
I saw him plotting and stacking next to my south-eastern city but didn't react properly : I had garrisonned 1 LB and an Archer before the DoW. That became 2 of each when the city was lost.
He's coming with Swords, LBs and Cats... I just got Guilds so maybe I can turn the tide ; I doubt it, though : I have so little production and he only lacks Machinery to get Maces... Lib -> Rep Parts or Lib -> Riffling is highly compromised, now.

Silly thing is I could have avoided the DoW since the man had pleased with me for 2-3 turns.
Too bad. I had Music (GA started 200 AD, when the Nat Ep was completed in Mecca - size 21, iirc), Education (monopoly on Paper), Guilds, going for Banking (Confu is shrined).
Then part-bulb Printing Press was the plan but I made another mistake there : I kept on investing 2 full turns of Priest GPP after getting my Great Prophet instead of switching to Caste scientists. So I just got another prophet
1-2 AIs have Guilds/Engineering. Mansa just built the AP.

Ayaaah ! Arf ! Yeah, Lib-> Riffling on Deity was too sweet a dream to come true.
That's enough for today. Last sane autosave is 225 AD. Made it a proper save but I'm not sure I'll try to make a win out of it. Maybe I will, though. Current situation is so bad

Spoiler :

Oh ! My ancient glory, where art thou gone ?

 

[shakabrade]

@BIC

Spoiler :

Thanks

Too bad HRE dowed you. I believe you'll pay more attention to begging gold in the future. Lib-->Rifling on deity... bitc* please
I suggest you to try cultural win for many reasons:
1. You get a closure with this map
2. You practice cultural win
3. Cultural victory is fast
4. Your position for cultural is far better than mine due to more matured cottages and one extra religion, so you can achieve an admirable date
5. Cultural victory makes you pay attention to diplo every turn, you'll also find out why SPI trait is so powerful
6. Other

gl hf

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks, Shakabrade. To 820 AD :

Spoiler :

Culture is an interesting option
I was admiring your resourcefulness when you went that route but didn't go as far as envisionning it for myself.
I'll keep the option in mind. I've never had a culture win, before. I felt like it was a very tempting option when I read your post yesterday night.

That said, first thing was to repel Charlie.
He stopped a couple of turns to heal his troops, which allowed me to get 3-4 Camel Archers. It was possible to fight him in the field and deal enough collateral damage to his Catapults, so that they became irrelevant. Workers went on roading duty to help with movement and I also acquired Engineering in a costly fashion (Compass + Paper to Mansa).
For 10 turns or so that was the spirit : strike in the field, retreat, heal a bit and strike again

Meanwhile, the game offered me a very nice opportunity : I could bribe my friend the AP resident Ragnar into the war for something like Guilds + Music ! Very exciting moment.
Next AP vote didn't fail : declare war on Charlie. Ragnar and Sury voted yes. Sury because he's becoming the superpower, having just capitulated Mansa.
So I could take back my city (myself), capture another (with the help of Ragnar) and finally a third one (myself). Sury took one as well, so that Charlie is only present on my southern front, now. Relief...

Techwise, I wasn't quite sure where to go anymore, so I went Philo -> Lib (partial) -> PP -> Lib -> RP. I got it. Probably by a small margin since :
- I couldn't bulb PP due to GP mismanagement ;
- I whipped hard my cities, except for Mecca and lost a lot of research power that way ;
- Qin, Mansa and Sury had Education for a few turns already. I had completely lost my lead by the time I reached Lib.

Now I'll have to prevent Sury from gaining a 2nd vassal. I'll try to monitor the AI armies wisely. And I'm heading towards Riffling (still lack Gunpowder). In the best case scenario, I'd conquer Charlie, Mansa, Sury and win via Mass Media (culture I find interesting but, really, I don't feel comfortable with it ; so if I can expand, I'll expand).
I'll have 3 Universities soon, not sure when I'll have 6. I should be able to trade horses from Ragnar when I'll need them (Cavalries). Otherwise I'll go with Rifflemen.
Not sure about my next GPs. Maybe merchants, need to check. I have a spare GS for now (don't wanna bulb Optics).

Screens :

Spoiler :

I'll probably trade Lib all around to get the money. Maintenance has risen high, compared to the -20gpt I used to have.

 

[Manco Capac]

Did try again in hope I succeed to avoid any early DoWs. It worked. Gone for Oracle for CoL. Suceeded to get GLib.
Now, I'm tired. Lost Lib to Qin who got it like in 4 turns.
Pffft. I think I give up.


Only good decision I made is to stop Sury in his war after capturing 4 cities from Mansa. That way I prevented any vassaling.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@Tachywaxon :

Spoiler :

Aren't you in about as great a position as the map allows ? Why would you give up ? Losing Lib is a bummer but doesn't set you back by more than 10 turns.
You have a great land grab and tech potential and a good headstart on infrastructure... Also you have 2 friendly AIs... Worst thing I can see is that the AIs are very advanced in your game. If you seek Domination, you're likely to go into the modern era... is it a big deal ? My humble opinion is that that's the way the map plays out.

@ your settler : do you plan on getting the fish ?
I'd settle on the wine if I were you, so as to get 2x seafood. You don't really "need" the brown tiles west of Mecca.

 

[shakabrade]

Did try again in hope I succeed to avoid any early DoWs. It worked. Gone for Oracle for CoL. Suceeded to get GLib.
Now, I'm tired. Lost Lib to Qin who got it like in 4 turns.
Pffft. I think I give up.


Only good decision I made is to stop Sury in his war after capturing 4 cities from Mansa. That way I prevented any vassaling.

Did AbsoluteZero quit when something something back at you

I think your position is still winnable. But you'll need a tactical advantage, and I mean tactical nukes. I'd say you just need to secure yourself some uranium. A brief riflemen+airships+few trebs war against mansa who is attacked by sury. Your research is good,and your cities are good, and you should have made one more city 3W of your capital to work clams and 5 cottages of your capital while it is breeding great people. I don't really know why do you keep your religion when it is not wise diplomatically, and you don't really gain anything for it except higher DoW chance. Shrine will work without confu being state religion.
You'll need submarines for this compact landmass so you don't need radio.

I think it is possible to win this map from this subsubsuboptimal position. Just quit being HoF spoiled