Whipping paradise start

[BornInCantaloup]

Update to 1160 A.D. :

Spoiler :

First thing, I could cap Charlie by 980 A.D.
The AIs were sending monstrous stacks into his territory : he was doomed.
I could capture two more cities from him that I decided to keep.

Spoiler :

Prague is the Buddhist holy city. My next GP happened to be a Prophet so I've shrined it already. Unfortunately, it tends to revolt, since I can't support it with any close city.
I wish I could capture Augsburg as well. It kinda was my "main" target, but I was a little light on troops and 2 unlucky rolls meant I didn't get it. I was affraid to send more troops since I had monitored the AIs' stacks towards Charlie's peninsula. My main force had to follow them.

I was on my way to Riffling. I could trade for Nationalism and researched Mil Trad myself. Meanwhile, most of the AIs have gotten their hands on Sci Meth.
Sury and Mansa have Steel as well, but they mostly field Knights.
So I built a few rifflemen, a little infra, then some Cavs and upgraded 10 or so Camel Archers.
At that point the plan is to fight Sury in the field, using my road network, Cavs and a few... Catapults.
I declared war a first time and then reloaded because... An AP vote happenned the turn after to stop the war. So I delayed the DoW to after the AP vote
This isn't a bad thing, I guess, since it let me stack more troops. Sury still outnumbers me something like 4:1. Mansa's stack is in his closest city to the south-east, it accounts for about 10 units. I don't mind if he captures Augsburg, since I'd like to have the city for myself. I want some super riffles !!

Spoiler :

Now I hope for the best (i.e. no degenerate flanking). I've roaded + cleared defensive terrain all along the border to keep my Cavalries mobile.
Bummer : still haven't built the Heroic Epic...

 

[shakabrade]

@BIC

Spoiler :

Great progress so far. Why don't you give RParts and Rifling to Charlie? AFAIK his power adds to your power for warring and capitulations. He will also be able to tech something useful for you. Sury doesn't have MT and Rifling yet and I believe you'll be able to take him down. Once again, I am impressed by your progress. Good luck.

Edit after seeing save:
You should also liberate Ulm and Prague since you'll lose them to cultural pressure anyway, and they will be more useful to you as Charlie's for their research value. Nuremberg and Mainz are not threatened. Charlie can research chemistry instead of divine right. I'd also whip specialists in Mecca away since you need Cavalries now more than anything, and that golden age you're aiming for will not do you good now since it will only add you 29 hammers per turn. Whipping in Mecca is much better at the moment. Even if you're still going for that second specialist, you can 2pop whip bank and gain 46 overflow hammers (for Heroic epic?) without losing any specialists, just 2 angry citizens.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thanks, I'm doing my best on this one
Regarding Riffling to Charlie, I don't know. I didn't think about it. Maybe I should.
I suppose the reason is that Riffling is kinda my monopoly tech. I don't mind him having techs that are common knowledge. I'll check who he's willing to trade with... For sure his riffles would hold their own.

Sury, Sury... Time is pressing. The man has 41gpt available for trade and I guess he can tech like blazes. I'm somewhat dependent on his techpath but, as long as he doesn't mass upgrade, yes, I hope to be ok.


EDIT :
Indeed, I could clear Sury's stack.

Spoiler :

1st my Cavs decimated his Elephants, then he attacked. Started like this :

Spoiler :

Then I suffered 4 casualties.

Now I have 2 GG Rifflemen (Combat 2, Drill 2+, Formation) to protect my yet to come conquered cities. I want to start along the southern coast with Mansa's cities. Mainz is a fine defensive point against Sury.
Augsburg was razed by Mansa... I gave RP to Charlie. Still unsure about Riffling.
Taking a stop, now. Will probably come back to it tomorrow.

 

[shakabrade]

I'd like to borrow that Hernan Cortes of yours. Very nice war succes.
Now own that Khmer bitc*!

 

[Manco Capac]

Did AbsoluteZero quit when something something back at you
Just quit being HoF spoiled

Hehe. Yes I am spoiled, but you can't expect miracle from someone who barely won 4 complete deity games. The rest were attempts up to 1 AD to get the feel.

And modern wars... I don't even remember the last one and as the wars shift towards the future, the more lame I become. Did I say I got owned once by Pacal II by cavalries against my infantry!?

Yes, I will try to continue although the urge to attempt to get steel instead, but that is enough to get everything on my side.
Later though because I had such a cute game on deity (normal speed) with Toku (I personally renamed Tadanaga Tokugawa the sadist) where I chariot rushed Augustus when I felt weird vibes from his weird slow expansion. Prize during the war: The Great Lighthouse and his head. Shame stupid Mao had to DoW me of all his foes (annoyed with everyone but me!). He slow me down a bit. Sino-nippon wars always occur. :

@BornInCantaloup

Damn you with your sweet game! You had learnt much along those deity players.

 

[shakabrade]

Hehe. Yes I am spoiled, but you can't expect miracle from someone who barely won 4 complete deity games. The rest were attempts up to 1 AD to get the feel.

And modern wars... I don't even remember the last one and as the wars shift towards the future, the more lame I become. Did I say I got owned once by Pacal II by cavalries against my infantry!?

Worry not, happened a lot of times. Their high withdrawal chance can really be pain in the beep. You simply avoid that by having more infantry . 5-6 cannons would also help to soften them before they attack and I find them the best defense.

Yes, I will try to continue although the urge to attempt to get steel instead, but that is enough to get everything on my side.

Lib --> Steel is too much of a gamble on Deity. You don't need that to win.

Later though because I had such a cute game on deity (normal speed) with Toku (I personally renamed Tadanaga Tokugawa the sadist) where I chariot rushed Augustus when I felt weird vibes from his weird slow expansion. Prize during the war: The Great Lighthouse and his head. Shame stupid Mao had to DoW me of all his foes (annoyed with everyone but me!). He slow me down a bit. Sino-nippon wars always occur. :

Good luck with that game. Chariot rush?? Wow, never considered it if those are not War chariots. You got *beep*.

I won at least 30 standard normal deity games so far (none religious), and I don't know why, but I find you a better player than me. I'll repeat: quit being HoF spoiled and you'll own deity, you are skilled 'nuff.

Comments in bold

@Born In Cantaloup

Sup man?

Meaning how is that sexy game of yours going on.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Hi guys, sorry : I've had a busy week and couldn't play much, let alone update.


@Tachywaxon : indeed, I didn't learn this game by myself. But don't fool yourself, I don't believe I've got much experience.
I think I seriously messed up my post-Education tech path, undervaluing techs such as Constitution, Economics and Chemistry (Steel, even), that appear to restrain the access to a lot of stuff.

@ Shakabrade : thanks for the support, but...

I've survived to 1545 A.D..

Spoiler :

Sury has wanted me dead for a millenium, now.
The Khmer-Malian invasion wasn't exactly the success I had hoped for. Even though Sury didn't organize much his troops and didn't upgrade his frontlines, I was outproduced and out-teched during the war. I could barely stop it, on the brink of death...

I thought in my last update that Mansa (fielding Cannons) had razed Augsburg in the south. In fact the city had just disappeared in the fog of war.
I could leave some riffles in Mainz and go capture it with my cavalries. Overstreching my forces led to the capture of two more Malian cities : Gao and Kumbi Saleh (shrined Hindu holy city).
That's overstretching because by then Mansa and Sury had Flight (req Railroad), while Sury had had his hands on Riffling for quite a while. And above all, they had me surrounded with stacks.

Here's a look of the frontline :

Spoiler :

Garrison in Florence :


Cannon east of Mainz :


Riffle stack east of Kumbi Saleh :


Riffle stack north-east of Gao (lost a GG Rifle there a few turns earlier) :

It looks pretty grim and that is a situation that took me some time to solve.
What you can't see, here, is that Sury is willing to negociate a peace but will demand control over the city of Mainz.
I never could really push through Sury's forces. There's no way I can take Florence, for example, and there never was except for the first few turns of the war (but I went for Mali). So he asks for Mainz or will capture some other cities.
Now there's the other thing you can't see on those screenshots : something like 8 turns ago - long ago to forget about it - a great merchant was sent from Mecca to Lisbon to accomplish a trade mission. So I ended up buying peace for a few 100's of gold...
Save to this turn is attached if you wanna see how many cities would be lost without the peace...
Still, those are very limited gains from this war and I lag in the tech race with few to no trades available.

Techwise, I have been going from Riffling to Military Tradition to Astro to Physics to Economics to Chemistry to Electricity (which yielded a trade with Joao for Steam Power + Constitution) and then Corporations, Assembly Line and finally, Steel. That's 'till 1545 AD.

A look at the tech situation :

Spoiler :

I lack Democracy and Military Science left of that.

Meanwhile, I've reinforced my frontlines and I'm retooling my cities a bit. Oxford is built in Mecca, the Heroic Epic is in Damascus (Sugar city ; 1 settled GG and 1 G Prophet), Moai is in the northern peninsula and the Globe Theater, prolly a mistake, is west of Mecca in the Clams + Wheat city.
I'll complete my 6th bank soon and will get Wall Street in one of my 3 holy cities (Confu, Budd & Hindu). I don't have much in terms of wonders but I have a good hold on those.

Now I'm not quite sure what I need. I'm pretty much last in Demographics.
As far as strat resources go, I don't have Oil myself but I can probably demand some from Charlie if he gets to Combustion. Otoh, I can get Uranium.
Mecca suffers -9 happy from Emancipation. I have 17 towns and 10 villages. I think I need Democracy.
Artillery is also very appealing seeing how I won't have air superiority anytime soon (Anti-tanks + Arties).
Radio is on the way to a VC.
Those are my needs, and I think I need a trade as well. Radio, Artillery, Democracy... And then there's always Biology. I'm not sure how I fare when Sury DoWs or when Mansa builds the UN.

Here's the land and a few other screens :

Spoiler :

And Sury has started closing in on Culture... Good thing to look for screenies.
Well, at least I'll have seen that part of the tech screen for a change...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Oh well, despite my pipe dreams, I quit circa 1650 A.D.

Spoiler :

Endgame summary :
Mansa built the UN, so he and Sury (30% land + 30% pop) were competing for the election.
I had researched Artillery and was on my way to Radio then, so I started building some more modern units to stack my frontlines.
When Sury was closing on 50 turns to his cultural victory I eventually declared war on him. Railroads behind the ennemy lines meant I was totally outmaneuvered (+ out-teched and outnumbered... go figure).
And just because he could and I couldn't do anything about it (no begging), Sury bribed pleased Qin and Ragnar on me. That's how it goes.

Some things that went wrong :
- First, I prolly should have considered a Culture win more seriously when Shakabrade raised the point. Maybe Sury would have DoWed me, maybe not.
- I never ran Organized Religion and experienced a lot of underproduction difficulties throughout the game. Being Spiritual, I should have afforded some quick switches to OR to get my infrastructure faster.
- National Wonders were built very late. None of them were built in the BCs. The NE was the first and was built on 200 AD (which is ok with me). Moai was built later and, more importantly, the Globe Theater and Heroic Epic were delayed forever (1300 AD, at least...).
Especially when Oracling CoL, There's something like a 50% chance to get a high production holy city. When I do, I seem to always struggle between the needs of a HE spot and the temptation of going heavy on infra with most gold multipliers and a couple beaker multipliers as well.
It would surely be a better idea to either delay Grocer/Market or to find another productive spot for the HE. Bad HE city > no HE city.
- Renaissance techpath and on. Erf... I still don't know how to prioritize techs when entering the modern era. I'll remember that Chemistry, Economics and Constitution bottleneck a lot of key economics techs, later on. So I'll make them higher priority for another game that delves into the modern era.
- Later GPs : should've gotten more Merchants with this kind of compact Empire.
- War management : ain't always better to hit the softer target (master & vassal scenario here). I know this already

Spoiler :

Anyways, it was a fun game, even though it was a loss
Not really the whipping paradise I expected but for sure a super duper high food capital

 

[shakabrade]

Sorry to hear that. But you played quite a game nontheless. It wasn't whipping paradise at all. But it was GP farm paradise. At least in my cultural game.

Once again, good job BIC , you made the most out of it.

 

[Manco Capac]

Once again, good job BIC , you made the most out of it.

Indeed (first view was me , but couldn't comment at that time),
BIC doesn't have exaggerated abilities as I think he says.

I don't remember what happened in first rounds (quite a time this thread has survived), but main mistakes (apparent ones I guess) is not bribing away Sury from vassalizing Mansa and vassalizing weak and useless Charlie (although you needed to do it as far I remember). Strong early vassal is great (hypervassal's strat brought by AZ or usual ZZZ's strat), otherwise it messes all your relationship with other AI's (Ragnar was in fact CAUTIOUS with because he was annoyed with Charlie.

In my game when I will continue later once I eat the dirt with Tadanaga Toku (will happens very soon as Mao becomes a military super power!), I won't make Charlie my vassal in any case because of my super relationship with JoaoII and Ragnar. If I can do a single later war a get Charlie down, a vassal will fordid me from the free WFABTA hardly earned. WFYABTA-free state >> weak not very liked vassal.

And Mansa as vassal could be nice to affront gigantic Sury.

 

[Manco Capac]

Hey, do you mind if I ask you some advices for my japanese game (the one I chariot-rush for my first time a deity AI) because the situation becomes desperate? Unfortunately, I can't let the save because it invalidates any HoF submission.

Mao got extreme production lands and I barely survived his enormous stack of ~40-50 units and once I made peace, I brought Hammy before against him (extreme mistake) and Hammy is getting really slapped hard by super power Mao...I fear he becomes vassal of him. Then, it is a sure game over.

I will come later because time limitation right now.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Thank you for the nice comments, guys.

BIC doesn't have exaggerated abilities as I think he says.

I'm not sure how to react to this statement... Sure enough, I'm not experienced with winning. I'm mostly glad the game was fun to play 'till the 1600's.


And then, nice tips ! Thank you. Spot on bad and passive diplo. Yeah...
Indeed, I probably let Sury capitulate Mansa way too easily. I didn't realize how bad it would turn things, later on.
About Charlie, though, I had to cap him or let another AI do it. And in that case, I could've only afforded little land gains (in that direction... but you talk about Mansa as well).

I didn't clearly realize that it was the (bad) relationship between Charlie and my other rivals that was messing with the WFYABTA treshold. I should have cared, though, since I feared WFYABTA specifically (or so he says...) and was counting on 2-3 potential friendly AIs (friendly = +10 relationship ; I checked that for this game...).
Maybe I could have worked around that. I had plans to spread Hinduism (Sury+Mansa+Ragnar) to Charlie at one point and never did it. Then maybe I could've converted to Hindu myself... Different game.

Mansa as a vassal ? Appealing indeed. Looks like you have a plan for your own game
Regarding your Tadanaga game, well... see how good I am at diplo ? Maybe let the game cool down for a few days and look at it from another eye ?

 

[shakabrade]

Maybe it is bad play from me, but I almost never vassalize early game because I don't want to fight my vassal's wars. And I never attempt to win before renaissance. For example, if you join dogpiling someone and let's say you are in very good relations with your fellow dogpilers, when you vassalize that special someone, dogpilers now hate or at least don't like you because they still don't like that special someone you vassalized and they have been warring with just the moment before. If someone is pleased with you and furious with your vassal, he is annoyed with you. Pleased+annoyed=cautious (that means no war probability from him is low). It also screws your possible peaceful UN victory attempt. I am more into declaring war, then signing peace treaty for techs and then redeclare and annihalate. No diplo problems if noone liked that AI, no we yearn to join our motherland problems and no culture pressure. I find this approach to be safer from DoWs.

Late vassals, however, usually give me at least 6 techs.

 

[Manco Capac]

Good luck with that game. Chariot rush?? Wow, never considered it if those are not War chariots. You got *beep*.

Well, first I have to say chariot are extremely rare possible and succesful case of rush on deity, that is why people completely disqualify it as path to conquer a neighbour.

But I felt the target was extremely soft for many reasons:
-The roman had 3 cities at a time I consider slow for deity
-One archer keeping the newly conquered city; where's his production directed at?
-Possible wonder at work
-No chariots, metal units yet through bragging function
-I suspected his lands was production lacking
-He was improving a plain tile with 12 and I knew AH plus BW. Iron I suspected and I didn't want to deal with preats, so I worker steal.

Surprisingly, he accepted peace/cease fire for one worker lost and an roaming archer through defensive. Extremely rare to see that and I was convinced I could overwhelm him.
I immediately retreated and prepared two chariots in hope to capture his newly founded city (which built granary first! ), but it failed. Then I prepared an onset of >20 chariots and via roading trick, I attacked instantaneously the last archer.
The second which arrived from his real lands was baited with a wounded warrior.

His lands was somewhat terrible and interesting at the same time. It was the Great Lighthouse which forced me to go throught towards his end.
His capital was awful, but the war cost wasn't that much.

Indeed, he had construction and a small compagny of one cata plus 4-5 archers attacked and all failed, which left almost nothing in the capital (3 archers plus one cata)

With some micro and little trick, I captured the rest of his empire.

A little later, of course, Mao hating everyone HAD to DoW me, with which he was CAUTIOUS. Lame.

----------------------------------------------------------

The war outcome was terrible and I lost all my garrison against Mao and stacks were coming endlessly; after losing Lib to Hammy (twas fast man) I redirected my energy with a fast Guild to bribe Hammy into the war before making peace and the trade was close to be inacceptable for Hammy . I made peace for a high cost, terribly high cost, but that was the only choice. This or lose the game. Now, Hammy will suffer terribly from the war and I don't want to spend more to bribe Mao off and spoil completely my relations.

BTW, at one moment, Zara was about to DoW me (of course, me over Justinian who DoWed him earlier .) even I was religionless and correct with him.
I had to liberate a city I founded in his continent that used the spoiled fish in Rome even it had nothing to do with the WHEEON (was founded after WHEEON in fact).

Now, he has to pass through the water strips to go after me; hope Justi will go after stupid Zara.

Putting that anecdote aside, I fear Mao will vassalize Hammy (almost friendly with him). I did upgrade a couple of chariots (1400 ) in possibility I make him my vassal, but he reinforced the target city because of Mao stack. Now, I feel stuck.

Here's a couple of sreenies to get a feel of where I am.
The city screens are for future Globe city and present NE city.

If only Hammy would bring AP resolution to bring everyone in war OR save his ass, but he's stupid!

EDIT: I forgot to say the mapsize is large, my typical setting on random. So, the number of cities is just right I guess. The rest is normal settings like normal speed, no huts, no events, etc.

 

[Manco Capac]

Post for Hammy and Mao lands. I forgot these....

Last screenie for my future globe city (that would be my first ever).

If a need for more screenies, just ask.
I really don't want to give up on this one.

 

[shakabrade]

I'd say Justinian is going after Zara, since AI prefers targets on its continent and Justy doesn't like him due to religion. You should make Mao make peace with Hammurabi but I'd give optics instead of music since optics can steer Mao's research to astronomy, which is better for your safety than MT. Especially if you go for cannons. I'd go directly to steel if I were you. HE city can make trebs and samurai meanwhile and upgrade them later. I'd attack Mao with cannons + samurai and keep some pikemen in stack for knights and future cuirs. If you attack Mao, he won't be able to make vassals. I am totally into cannon war vs Mao. And would whip to ground once steel is in. I better go to sleep now.

Edit: Actually, don't give anything to Mao for peace and go for cuirs. I believe he won't be able to reach cuirs in time. Even with trades. Hammurabi is agressive and won't capitulate just yet, he will put up a fight which will slow Mao down enough for your cuirs to arrive. What is your bpt at 100% research?

Btw, good luck with that SoD in SGOTM, quite a thriller

 

[Manco Capac]

I'd say Justinian is going after Zara, since AI prefers targets on its continent and Justy doesn't like him due to religion. You should make Mao make peace with Hammurabi but I'd give optics instead of music since optics can steer Mao's research to astronomy, which is better for your safety than MT. Especially if you go for cannons. I'd go directly to steel if I were you. HE city can make trebs and samurai meanwhile and upgrade them later. I'd attack Mao with cannons + samurai and keep some pikemen in stack for knights and future cuirs. If you attack Mao, he won't be able to make vassals. I am totally into cannon war vs Mao. And would whip to ground once steel is in. I better go to sleep now.

Edit: Actually, don't give anything to Mao for peace and go for cuirs. I believe he won't be able to reach cuirs in time. Even with trades. Hammurabi is agressive and won't capitulate just yet, he will put up a fight which will slow Mao down enough for your cuirs to arrive. What is your bpt at 100% research?

Thanks for the input. Mao can't trade except with Justinian (PLEASED). He hates everyone and vice-versa. That is why he is so backward. In fact, he was really backward until I gave a bunch of techs to survive. His stack was around 40-50 units with 7 catas. That was a teeth-clenching moment. My BTP is around 400 (weak indeed) and is shown in 5th sreenie. I regret the mistake to upgrade now my chariots and I should have continue to cuirassiers (that was my first intention). 1400 was 14 turns of full research.
Indeed, once Hammy gives in, I won't able to stop Mao until modern times and if I survive his next >50 units stack.

And I put all EP onto him for use of spies indeed. He doesn't help himself sabotaging my stuff.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Other screenshots ?
Maybe one from your military advisor, sorted by unit type ? Your knight/samurai count would be interesting. Mao seems to be vulnerable to them for now. Even though it won't last forever.

@ Satsuma : I would complete the GP there (grow to 10 first, sure, then hire 4). Better to do that now than when your NE city starts being active.
The cottages there "should" be close to useless compared to farms/workshops. You're not FIN and don't have the Moai built there so your potential commerce tiles aren't appealing. Which leads to farms and the NE...
You talk about your NE city but show a HE one. Is it a confusion ? If it is, then Satsuma could also host the NE. In which case it'd be more focused on food than production. Then, completing the GP would be a less pressing issue.


It's a tough situation you're in. I'd find it hard to give you more advice.
The land around sure is appealing. There are very varied resources both in Hammy's and Mao's lands.
Check your tech + infrastructure timings. I suppose you now that. Consider farming a GM now that you can't run on a deficit.
Invading Mao or Hammy is a tough choice. Hammy can bribe in other AIs but will reach advanced military techs sooner. Mao being the unit spammer, it may be hard not to go for him. What timeframe you're in is hard to judge and kinda luck dependant.

Best thing would be to side with whichever side has the siege when your peace treaty ends and rack the city captures. If you wanna know your chances, you should send 2-3 units into Hammy's territory. I'd try to get at least some spies (1-3) there to maintain vision after a DoW.

Well, I tell you this so my conscience is clean but, really, you shouldn't trust me on the strategy (and I'm confident you don't). I'll randomly declare wars that my 10 units striking force can't win or meet a quick end to a stack of 4 macemen by 1 A.D.