White Hand for FFPlus

[Valkrionn]

So, I'm planning on introducing the White Hand religion. Quite a bit of argument going on in the FFPlus thread about how to do it, so I'm starting this new one to see how other people feel about it..... The basic plan is to have the Illians found it when they build the White Hand ritual. It will have a low spread, and very low adoption rates... It's basically an anti-AV religion. If Hell is spreading through your lands, following the White Hand will help save you. Mostly inspired by KillerClowns 'Paradise' story...

I'm thinking that adopting it will at the least cause AI civs to become vassals to Auric. Human players as well, if I can get it working correctly... Leaving the religion will cause you to break free. Going to quote all the opinions here.

Spoiler Paradise :

Everything was destroyed. Johnathon's home city had been turned to ash by a single, terrible man who dressed as a king and warped minds with words. His family was dead. The Bannor empire was crumbling, and he knew it. The Hell they had escaped those many years ago had come for them, and this time, it was succeeding. But Johnathon had escaped, and fled to seek the single glimmer of hope that shined in the black night of the living hell Erebus had become.

He and a ragged band of survivors were seeking something that was only spoken of in whispers and rumors: the Paradise. A land untouched by Hell, if only they could slip unnoticed through Balseraph territory. It was probably a rumor, a fool's dream, if not an outright trap. But what else was there? Foolish dreams, at least, were better than despair. Those who died did so believing that their children, brethren, or friends might make it to Paradise instead.

Nobody prayed. Junil had failed. Lugus had forsaken them. Kilmorph gave nothing. Some had even turned in desperation to the Overlords, but they had also given up Erebus to the might of Agares. But it was said that even Agares himself could not touch Paradise.

To pass the time, the survivors swapped stories of woe; there were no other kinds. An elderly man, among the oldest of the group but still relatively healthy, said, “I hear the Doviello fell. Utterly destroyed. Never thought I'd be so sad to hear that news.” There were nods of agreement; the beastmen had been as fierce and unforgiving as animals, but at least they were better than the Infernals.

There was a time of silence, then another piped in. “They say there's a fourth horseman. It's only a guess... something has been leaving a trail of devastation worse than the other three. No prisoners, no survivors, villages just... disappear.” Things were getting worse and worse.

Said yet another, “can't be any nastier than the third. Disease and death followed him everywhere... I've only heard, people who actually see him tend to die horrible deaths from the diseases... provided he doesn't kill them first.”

A younger man put in what he'd heard: “they say the first horseman, the King, tried to invade Paradise.” Gasps and murmurs of horror. “But they killed him! Yeah, they killed him and took his crown! Been getting ready to do the same to the other two... three now, I guess.” Most wanted the tale to be true, but doubted it. Could the Horsemen be slain at all?

Said another, “even if so, what about the Balseraphs? They're near as bad as the Infernals. Think it's all just some grand game, love nothing more than torturing people. Break their souls, make them worship Agares so they can turn them into demons. But not before breaking their bodies and minds... entertainment, they reckon it is. Horrifying. Every Balseraph is just a demon in a human-shaped egg, says I.” Nods of agreement.

They'd encountered Balseraphs before, a few times, and each had been a desperate fight. The survivors couldn't afford to take prisoners or leave any Balseraphs to report their existence, and they dare not be captured alive themselves, so each encounter was a savage struggle to the death. After the first encounter, cannibalism had also become accepted policy; they couldn't afford to waste food or leave bodies.

There was a change in the plains of ash ahead. The eldest of the group smiled from ear to ear. “Come on!” he yelled as he ran, with suprising speed, towards what seemed to be another ashen plain. The rest of the group, inspired if somewhat confused, tried to keep pace.

When the old man reached the change in ash, he scooped the new stuff up. Except it wasn't ash. It was a strange, pure white powder, which the old man clumped into a ball and, grinning like a child, threw at Johnathon. It was cold, and upon touching Johnathon, began to turn into water. “Snow!” the old man yelled. “It's snow! It's been too long since I've seen snow!” He laughed and danced. “This is it! We've made it! The Illian Empire! Hell has no power here! Paradise!”

The air grew cold surprisingly fast as the group dragged itself towards the promised land. A rabbit, white as the snow around it, examined them. It was the first non-demonic animal they had seen for months, sometimes years. The youngest Bannor stared, half expecting it to bare razor sharp teeth, spit fire at them, or roar. But it seemed as frightened of them as they were of it.

A hunter, previously invisible, swathed in furs, appeared and speared the creature. He grabbed his catch, then noticed the ragged band approaching. “More refugees? By Auric... luckily for you, I've been told we need all the hands we can get, but first things first. Listen up, and listen well. I am to have you take the Oath.” The group stopped, and listened. “Do you agree to abandon your old gods?” The survivors nodded. One said, “they abandoned us first!” “So they did,” said the hunter. “Do you agree to serve Auric, in this world and the next?” Again, they gave their consent. “Do you agree to abide by the laws and customs of the Illian people?” And again, they agreed. “Then I welcome you...” the hunter couldn't even finish his sentence before the group cheered.

Spoiler Quotes :

Why isent that already implemented? The WH would make a nice religion for anyone to adopt.

I would love to see a scenarion where AV has ruined the world and thretenes to destroy all and only the ultimate force of the White Hand and winter can stop it.

Esentialy, using one great evil power to fight the other.

I don't think that auto vasalisation would be a good thing for the white hand.
The way I see it, who ever follows it, means that the said leader is competing for the place as the rightful heir of Mulcan.

Technically, the religion should focus on freezing the world to return to the "Good old days".
Maybe as a neat alternative to the hot and flaming hell poping up all round us.

It should have a completely different meaning to normal civs than it has to the Ilians.

Alternatively, as someone said on the Assimilating Erebus thread:
"The ice queen will have peace! Even if it means freezing the world to do it."

I see it more as people coming to the Illians as beggars, hoping they can save their empire from Hell. That's entirely from KillerClown's amazing story though.

Er... I can not imagine empires coming to beg one evil against the other.
Why not just call the Bannor? They will do the job cleaner and without asking for anything in return.

What if there is no Bannor? What if Bannor is the one begging the White Hand for salvation? If the only remaining faction able to save Erebus from the hellfire of the Armageddon is the White Hand, what leader would not make that choice to save their people?

You should read KillerClown's story. It paints a wonderful picture.

Personally, I think that if I had a choice between Auric, and Hell, I'd go with Auric...... The Bannor can collapse because of hell terrain spread as easily as any other empire. Only the Illians are impervious...... and those who follow the White Hand.

The thing is that I can never realize that someone would bow to Auric as his master.
Even with the Infernals you do not bow down to them and submit, but you sign a pact of non aggression, friendship or what ever.

You are suggesting outright vasalisation.

By following the White Hand, you'd essentially be worshiping Auric. I think becoming his vassal emulates that nicely.

You could argue the same about AV and the infernal. But that sounds truly and apsolutely lame.
Would it not be more logical to have worshiping the White Hand be like saying:
"I am the one who should ascend into the new frost god! Not that wolf pelt clad frost boy."

Sounds a lot more well normal.

Auric is currently the only one capable of ascending, as far as I am aware. He was basically chosen by the sphere of Ice. Only way someone else could ascend, would be to kill him. And that's not the way I want to go with the religion at all.

The same way as only that H. guy can really win in a AV scenario.
But people still compete with him, not for his favor.

Plus that I think that vasalisation would be a bad way to go as no human would willingly adopt the religion and the potential for the AI to cluster up in 1 block would be massive.

Regarding the discussion of the White Hand and vassals:
1 - As I understand it, Auric is already being possessed by the divine spark, so it's him as the new god of winter or nothing. You can't throw your hat into the ring.
2 - If you do vassalization, the AI should be blocked from demanding resources from a human. I foresee many potential errors if you refuse and the game tries to break a vassalization that is coded in. An alliance would work a lot better and make more sense, but I'm not sure there's a way to undo that if you decide to change religions later on.

White Hand seems like it shouldn't be a religion you 'want', but a 3rd alternative to AV or death. It would be silly to see an entire continent go WH just because it got there first. Vassalization sortof reflects that. Plus that seems like something Auric would do.

I envision there being alot of issues though, vasalization is buggy even without a human being a vassal.

Kael has stated that Auric is not the literal reincarnation of Mulcarn, and does not possess the same divine spark. He was however touched by birth by the leaderless precept of ice and chosen to be its new leader. I suspect that the sphere would seek a new god once he dies. The only real remnant of Mulcarn was the divine breath that dwells in Barnaxus and gives the golem life beyond that possible for a mere enchantment machine. It is however possible that this breath was transferred entirely to Auric and that it might be a necessary part of the ascension process, so maybe after Beneath the Heel Auric is the only one who can become the new God of Winter.



I think that forcing anyone following The White Hand religion to be a vassal to Auric once they meet him makes sense. Or, if you wanted to make it even stronger, you could make it impossible for anyone following this religion to deny any demand from Auric whatsoever (or at least not be able to keep the religion otherwise)




Agares and Mulcarn/Auric have rather different governing philosophies. Agares prefers that those loyal to him compete for his affections so he never enforces a hierarchy and doesn't really care if those loyal to him are loyal to his lieutenants. Agares is unable to enter Creation directly and his servants often have ulterior motives, so followers of the Veil could easily rationalize that the particular demons with whom they deal don't have any real authority from their god. Most of those following the veil don't even seem to know about Agares though, so I'd guess only the high priests need concern themselves with such questions. Mulcarn/Auric on the other hand, prefer an order as harsh and stagnant as Junil's. Auric is present in Creation, so their is little excuse for creative interpretations of his wishes. Followers of The Hand had better do exactly what he tells them to do.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I'd like to see other civs able to adopt it in games where the Illians aren't in play.


Doviello, for example. Amurites for a crazier alternate reality. Etc...


Maybe have the Illians found it with their first city...but also allow it to be founded later if the Illians ain't in the game?

 

[FireBlaze]

With this, and the story as inspiration, you should also make it to were diplomacy with the infernals is a lot harder, and the only way that you'd not be attacked by them is by the wonder. Also give them a higher bonus in hell terrain, and allow it to spread in good lands at 80 or 90 AC. That'd make this more fesable, and do some much needed changes to the hell system. Also allow the white hand to be founded at a late tech, possibly strength of will for when the Illidans aren't in play. Something like the only way the Amurites could see to stop hell is to dig deeper into magic, and within that, they find Mulcran (or something like that), and he makes them his new high priests.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The way I see it, Ice would be a alternate hellish scenarion, not a salvation...

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

awesome... I've been wanting this for a while

 

[Valkrionn]

With this, and the story as inspiration, you should also make it to were diplomacy with the infernals is a lot harder, and the only way that you'd not be attacked by them is by the wonder. Also give them a higher bonus in hell terrain, and allow it to spread in good lands at 80 or 90 AC. That'd make this more fesable, and do some much needed changes to the hell system. Also allow the white hand to be founded at a late tech, possibly strength of will for when the Illidans aren't in play. Something like the only way the Amurites could see to stop hell is to dig deeper into magic, and within that, they find Mulcran (or something like that), and he makes them his new high priests.

Yeah, I'll end up making hell changes. Possibly make the changes Magister talks about for the Infernals... Massively stronger, unable to enter non-hell terrain, hell spread to good civs at AC 90, some units able to actively spread hell, etc. Having it foundable at a late tech could work..... Just have to decide WHAT tech. The way you described wouldn't work, as Mulcarn is 100% dead. Can't empower a priest in that manner, it would have to be the same way Auric was empowered.

Hmm..... Maybe a religious tech, available with Divination/Alteration (To divine Mulcarn's successor, and to begin transforming the land to ice) that can found the religion if the Illians are not in game, and opens a membership civic that increases Ice yields slightly, just enough to live on. Possibly have it be an entirely new council, and council head is automatically whoever controls the Holy City?

The way I see it, Ice would be a alternate hellish scenarion, not a salvation...

Ice IS a bad thing, but it's the lesser evil. People can survive it, albeit not in a way they'd prefer. Hell, on the other hand, is hell. The Bannor survived it, yes, but they also had the leadership of an Angel.

 

[WarKirby]

I'd like to see other civs able to adopt it in games where the Illians aren't in play.


Doviello, for example. Amurites for a crazier alternate reality. Etc...


Maybe have the Illians found it with their first city...but also allow it to be founded later if the Illians ain't in the game?

I have to strongly disagree here. No.

It makes no sense at all if the illians are not there This should be foundable by the illians, and only the illians. And having them in the game should be a requirement.

I love the lore, by the way. I really love this idea. As long as you're working on this, I'd suggest as a first port of call, making Priests of Winter available to buiild at priesthood. Requiring a temple of the hand. Reduce their strength to 5 to match up with other priests.

What other things are planned for the White Hand religion? i'd personally suggest making Drifa a White Hand religious hero, instead of an illian civ hero. The illians are still pretty likely to get her, but not certain. Vassalisation to the illians for adopting it sounds good also, for both humans and AI.

Serving auric should bring some incentive to help the illians in their mission too. So perhaps any civ following the White Hand should get +1 food from snow, and possibly +1 too. That would make snow as good as plains for non-illian White Hand civs. not quite as good as the +2 that illians get, but it makes snow useable.

I'd advise against new civics personally. The civic screen is getting a bit cluttered as is, and I think the last thing we need is even more "options" that are in fact very restricted to a select group. Unless you could do dll work to not show invalid civics in that menu. (ie, not seeing lost lands unless you play mazatl)

I'd also suggest making it possible for that to stack with the Doviello's natural +1 food from snow, so that if the doviello adopt the White hand, they get on an equal footing with the illians in terms of snow output. Since they're both northern races, this seems fair.

And I think the White Hand needs a disciple unit too, to spread it. Buildable at Mysticism.

 

[Rutee]

Thought;

Vassalization should perhaps come at Auric's ascension, not before.

He's not god /yet/, after all.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

That would actualy make sense.
Once he starts the ritual, all non WH civs declare war on him and all WH civs become his vasals or beter yet, perma allies.

 

[WarKirby]

Thought;

Vassalization should perhaps come at Auric's ascension, not before.

He's not god /yet/, after all.

I disagree. The white hand is essentially worshipping the illian leader. he may not technically be a god yet, but he;s a powerful mage and is treated like a god. Vassalage indicates the proper respect, and also ties you together with the illians. It's only right that you would have to help in their wars. An enemy of the illians is an enemy of winter, and must be exterminated. If not a vassal, then at least something like a permanant alliance.

The vassal status would also make you exept from being declared war on when The Draw is used

 

[deadliver]

The real issue is making sure the dumb AIs accept the White Hand as a religion of last resort,(except perhaps the Doviello) with much of the world burning, not just because the Illians say so while there are other viable religions out there.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The entire concept sounds to me as all Flavour and no reguard to gameplay, balance or god forbit the AI.

 

[deadliver]

I think the vassalization may be going too far but I like the idea of using the White Hand to counter the world going to a fiery hell. However I think that perhaps this should either be expressed through a scenario or a game option.

 

[Valkrionn]

The real issue is making sure the dumb AIs accept the White Hand as a religion of last resort,(except perhaps the Doviello) with much of the world burning, not just because the Illians say so while there are other viable religions out there.

Trust me, I will not release it unless I can get the AI to use it correctly.

The entire concept sounds to me as all Flavour and no regard to gameplay.

I have to completely disagree. Yes, I'm trying to make gameplay correspond to the pre-existing Flavour, but ONLY because I see a need for it. Right now, the only options with Hell are A) Build massive armies and station them on your borders, along with Sanctity adepts, B) Convert to AV and build Pax Diabolis, which the AI can't do effectively, or C) Play as Sheiam or Infernal. This will add a D) Adopt the White Hand. The Hand will hurt your empire, but not nearly as much as hell terrain, or having demons destroy your empire.

 

[WarKirby]

The illian AI should pursue a strategy of aggressively expanding and conquering, but should seek only to vassalize, not destroy. Also, remove that stupid requirement for summoning drifa, of having completely destroyed a Civ. I really don't like that.

Simply make it so that when a civ capitulates to the illians, they automatically adopt white hand. It is forced upon them as their state religion, and becomes present in their capital. Possibly, it would be nice if it could even be forced upon agnostic civs. As opposed to religion as he is, I think Cassiel would probably still rather his people serve auric, than agares, if forced to make that choice. Because when the enemy you fight comes from hell, death is not an escape. So it's not even a choice of religion or die, because to die is to go into infernal service.

As long as a civ is under illian rule, they can't change their state religion to anything else. And if they manage to break free from vassalization, they are automatically kicked out of WH and free to choose a religion again.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

More white hand can only help the game. Divination as a prereq for the founding tech sounds fine.

I'm assuming the shrine will provide Ice mana?

Other WH ideas/questions:

1. Somebody (warkirby?) proposed adding a 4th barbarian faction for the Frostlings, which would start at peace with the Illians. I think that would be killer. Non-Illian WH should be able to have peace with them through a ritual. Frostling forts/igloos as a spawning lair?

2. Religious heroes: Drifa or Wilboman would be logical, obviously. Perhaps Mokka as well?

3. For heaven's sake, give Mokka his cauldron as a piece of equipment. Not sure exactly what it does in the lore...but maybe have it spawn frozen zombies or some such after combat?

4. Frostlings as religious UU? Frost Giants? (yes, I know they are technically extinct). Winter wolves?

 

[Rutee]

The illian AI should pursue a strategy of aggressively expanding and conquering, but should seek only to vassalize, not destroy. Also, remove that stupid requirement for summoning drifa, of having completely destroyed a Civ. I really don't like that.

Simply make it so that when a civ capitulates to the illians, they automatically adopt white hand. It is forced upon them as their state religion, and becomes present in their capital. Possibly, it would be nice if it could even be forced upon agnostic civs. As opposed to religion as he is, I think Cassiel would probably still rather his people serve auric, than agares, if forced to make that choice. Because when the enemy you fight comes from hell, death is not an escape. So it's not even a choice of religion or die, because to die is to go into infernal service.

As long as a civ is under illian rule, they can't change their state religion to anything else. And if they manage to break free from vassalization, they are automatically kicked out of WH and free to choose a religion again.

If Cassiel were willing to adopt the religion of a jackass God to save his people from hell, he would not be Agnostic. His stance is that people shouldn't be puppets of the gods period, I thought. Not "People shouldn't be puppets of the Gods, unless that just happens to be how I keep them safe from one God."

Granted, Agn. usually really means "Homegrown cultural religion", not /actually/ denying the current religions.

The reason I said "No vassalization til Ascension" is that there are reasons to have the facade of worship without actual worship

Can Auric's demands be done like the UN? Just "Yes" or "NEVER!", to get the :E penalty from denying it.

 

[deadliver]

Yeah I think Cassiel would avoid the White Hand as much as any other religion. After all he could join Order for the good alignment benefit if he were willing to use religion to protect against hell. Seeing as he does not, the same holds true for White Hand simple as that.

Guess what, that means Auric would get pissed and have to convert by the sword one of the few leaders not willing to bow down and acknowledge/respect him as a god (not THE God, but a god).

 

[WarKirby]

If Cassiel were willing to adopt the religion of a jackass God to save his people from hell, he would not be Agnostic. His stance is that people shouldn't be puppets of the gods period, I thought. Not "People shouldn't be puppets of the Gods, unless that just happens to be how I keep them safe from one God."

Granted, Agn. usually really means "Homegrown cultural religion", not /actually/ denying the current religions.

It's not about being willing, though. If demons are invading his land, his people WILL serve one god or another. It's a case of choosing between them. Dying isn't an option. Don't nonbelievers go to hell anyway?


Another point. Even if cassiel isn't willing to choose, isn't it likely that people would rise up and overthrow him? As far as I'm aware, the grigori trust cassiel for his wise advice. If his advice is just to face certain death, I'm inclined to think they'd ignore it. And if he tries to force them to remain godless, remember that the grigori have a ton of superpowered heroes, and cassiel, though powerful, is not invincible. I think Os-Gabella is the only leader who is actually invincible. The heroes serve the people, not the angels (of which cassiel is one) so I can see Cabal Tenhare striking Cassiel down if he tries to doom his people.

After all, unswerving obedience is one thing cassiel deliberately avoids instilling in his people, encouraging them to think for themselves instead. Violent revolution seems more likely among the grigori than any other race I can think of.

Also, Cassiel may be a highly principled person, but the common man is not. And would gladly worship an evil god to save their own skin. Even if it means abandoning the grigori entirely, and going to the illians as a refugee.

 

[deadliver]

It's not about being willing, though. If demons are invading his land, his people WILL serve one god or another. It's a case of choosing between them. Dying isn't an option. Don't nonbelievers go to hell anyway?


Another point. Even if cassiel isn't willing to choose, isn't it likely that people would rise up and overthrow him? As far as I'm aware, the grigori trust cassiel for his wise advice. If his advice is just to face certain death, I'm inclined to think they'd ignore it. And if he tries to force them to remain godless, remember that the grigori have a ton of superpowered heroes, and cassiel, though powerful, is not invincible. I think Os-Gabella is the only leader who is actually invincible. The heroes serve the people, not the angels (of which cassiel is one) so I can see Cabal Tenhare striking Cassiel down if he tries to doom his people.

Also, Cassiel may be a highly principled person, but the common man is not. And would gladly worship an evil god to save their own skin. Even if it means abandoning the grigori entirely, and going to the illians as a refugee.

Using that rationale Cassiel should lose population from his cities as people flee to the Illians in such a scenario rather than suddenly compromise one of the civ's basic flavours (or lack of flavour). As I mentioned before why shouldn't he suddenly choose another religion such as one of the ones that would grant his civ good alignment (which is protection enough for now until the AC is changed)