White Hand for FFPlus

[KillerClowns]

As an aside, I suppose if you can manage it, running around in Svartalfar levels of clothing in places where most people consider two layers of fur barely sufficient is a great way to remind people that you are, in fact, not to be trifled with. I still favor the current pic, though, although in it Auric seems to be dressed more for autumn than winter.

 

[Opera]

As an aside, I suppose if you can manage it, running around in Svartalfar levels of clothing in places where most people consider two layers of fur barely sufficient is a great way to remind people that you are, in fact, not to be trifled with. I still favor the current pic, though, although in it Auric seems to be dressed more for autumn than winter.

Wait, do you mean that all Svartalfar are indecent elves? Have you seen those skimpy Ljosalfar? Watch your words!

 

[Duruk]

A suggestion to go along with my donation to this whole thing. A ritual, fairly expensive and only available at exceedingly high AC, that pushes Auric up to neutral and gives him a hefty diplo bonus with non-AV civs, to deal with Hell Terrain and lessen the worry of a Gone To Hell victory. As a name, I suggest "Desperate Hope." If you want to force the AI to use the White Hand as a religion of last resort, you could make the Illians completing Desperate Hope be required for anyone other than the Illians and Doviello to adopt the White Hand (with the same alignment effects as the OO or CoE).

First off, let me say I love the idea of adding the White Hand; really looking forward to it.

However, I don't like the idea of Desperate Hope at all. Mulcarn may be the least evil god, but he is certainly still evil. I don't think that just because you oppose the forces of Agares, you become neutral. Mulcarn is a viable alternative to Hyborem, but he's still recreating the death and suffering of the Age of Ice.

Which isn't to say that I don't think he should oppose the AV. I personally think it's a more interesting story if you have evil splitting between the Ashen Veil and White Hand. In Desperate Hope, you've got the White Hand joining with neutral and good to oppose evil. If you don't add it, you get AV fighting an alliance of good and neutral nations, with the White Hand being even more united/organized and fighting both of them.*

*If I remember correctly, there is no hell version of snow/tundra. I'm not sure if it can still count towards that 90% hell-spread AV needs, though. If it doesn't, then you have an automatic conflict between AV and snow-spreading White Hand (who'd be making it much harder for AV to get their 90% hell coverage). On the other hand, neutral and good won't like 'em cause they're evil. Also, the whole breaking-the-compact-again thing probably won't sit well with anyone, but that's more lore and less game-mechanics.

 

[Valkrionn]

I agree about the neutrality. It should be good-neutral vs evil vs evil, like you said. Right now, ice will still count as hell terrain for the victory..... Planning on leaving that, but setting it up so any ice in White Hand territory is unable to become hell, so basically like good civs now, but relying on one specific terrain rather than just your borders.

 

[KillerClowns]

First off, let me say I love the idea of adding the White Hand; really looking forward to it.

However, I don't like the idea of Desperate Hope at all. Mulcarn may be the least evil god, but he is certainly still evil. I don't think that just because you oppose the forces of Agares, you become neutral. Mulcarn is a viable alternative to Hyborem, but he's still recreating the death and suffering of the Age of Ice.

Which isn't to say that I don't think he should oppose the AV. I personally think it's a more interesting story if you have evil splitting between the Ashen Veil and White Hand. In Desperate Hope, you've got the White Hand joining with neutral and good to oppose evil. If you don't add it, you get AV fighting an alliance of good and neutral nations, with the White Hand being even more united/organized and fighting both of them.*

*If I remember correctly, there is no hell version of snow/tundra. I'm not sure if it can still count towards that 90% hell-spread AV needs, though. If it doesn't, then you have an automatic conflict between AV and snow-spreading White Hand (who'd be making it much harder for AV to get their 90% hell coverage). On the other hand, neutral and good won't like 'em cause they're evil. Also, the whole breaking-the-compact-again thing probably won't sit well with anyone, but that's more lore and less game-mechanics.

I realize that in terms of lore, the Auric becoming neutral thing isn't perfect. It's more to prevent Hell Terrain spread and let the Illians in the Overcouncil if they so choose (strange bedfellows and all). Hell Terrain does spread in tundra and ice; it isn't visible, and has no effect on the cities harvesting the land, but the terrain becomes "Hellish {terrain type}" and still counts towards a Gone To Hell victory. The only problem making Auric neutral, in-game, would be that he'd get access to druids (who the Illians wouldn't accept). But outright banning the Illians from training druids, and giving them an alignment-free Eidolon UU (with some unholy strength replaced with ice, perhaps), seems like a way to deal with that.
EDIT: Oh, you're planning on making White Hand ice hell-proof? That works perfectly as well, and I suppose Auric never getting into the Overcouncil is reasonable; upon thought, I don't think he'd join if they let him.

 

[WarKirby]

Right now, ice will still count as hell terrain for the victory.....

Why?

I think it would be better iuf it didn't. Although it may be hell 2under the hood", it's still visually and functionally ice, so I don't think it should count. Agares should have to go in there andget rid of the ice to spread hell.

Of course, for this to work, there would have to be some natural way of gettinf rid of ice. Maybe hell terrain should conflicvt with it, and slowly replace ice with fields of perdition

 

[Valkrionn]

By right now, I meant before introducing the White Hand. I think Hell WILL replace ice, in non-White Hand lands.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Personally, I think it would make sense if Auric started out Neutral but became more and more Evil with each ritual on the way to godhood (probably just becoming Evil for the first ritual when Broader Alignments is off). By the time he could provide a refuge from hell, he would be quite evil and his alignment should be shown as such.


Mulcarn may have been the least Evil of the Evil gods, but I think that Auric had surpassed Mulcarn's level of Evil by the time he murdered Cassiel.



The Illians definitely shouldn't get Druids, as the Priest of Mulcarn's old enemy would not be welcome. What if we made it so that (High?) Priests of Winter were actually alignment-independent Druid UUs?



In my version I added a hell version of Tundra and Snow specifically so that the Infernals' top demons wouldn't get stuck there, but I guess that is not what you'd want for this as protection from the demons is the main reason to take the religion. One problem with your approach is of course that Hyborem tends to spawn on such terrain since the more productive lands are usually already occupied. If you make units like Hyborem unable to enter non-hell terrain and don't make a hell version of the winter terrain where they can go then I think you'll really have to edit the code that picks the tile where Hyborem enters the world.

 

[Valkrionn]

To clarify what I'm planning: There WILL be a hell terrain version of Snow and Tundra, but any Snow in White Hand controlled land will NEVER convert. So it's like with Good Civs now, but only as far as their snow terrain. Anything else can and will be converted quickly, because you'd be made evil by the religion... Giving a reason to spread snow throughout the empire. Hopefully Jean Elcard's new Temperature code will be included in FF by the time I start working on this... Got some plans for it.

I like the idea of him starting Neutral, though. Seems to fit more than him becoming Neutral towards the end, when he should be evil.

 

[far_wanderer]

To clarify what I'm planning: There WILL be a hell terrain version of Snow and Tundra, but any Snow in White Hand controlled land will NEVER convert. So it's like with Good Civs now, but only as far as their snow terrain. Anything else can and will be converted quickly, because you'd be made evil by the religion... Giving a reason to spread snow throughout the empire. Hopefully Jean Elcard's new Temperature code will be included in FF by the time I start working on this... Got some plans for it.

I like the idea of him starting Neutral, though. Seems to fit more than him becoming Neutral towards the end, when he should be evil.

Peaks should be added to that terrain list, or at least make them convert to underlying ice in White Hand territory.

 

[Rutee]

Yeah, that's one thing I won't change. It's an essential part of the civ, that one is agnostic and another is not.

..How? Why? I don't understand this. Every quote from or regarding Korinna seems to show that she clearly views the Emprah as her personal God-King. Why are people so ANGRIOUS about her being Agnostic?

 

[Valkrionn]

For me, this is a matter of gameplay trumping flavour. The Emperor and Korinna play completely different, thanks to her lacking agnostocism.

 

[WarKirby]

To clarify what I'm planning: There WILL be a hell terrain version of Snow and Tundra, but any Snow in White Hand controlled land will NEVER convert.

I think a better solution though, rather than having hell terrain versions of those. Make it possible for hell to REMOVE snow entirely, and turn it into some other mundane kind of hell terrain. Like fields of perdition. Actually, I think a hellish version of tundra would be cool, but NOT snow. And have hell spread turn snow tiles into hellish tundra.. Also, call it Frozen Wasteland.

so that you could use snowfall spells and such to make a snow barrier, which would slow the spread of hell. Obviously, snow within WH lands would never be removed.


Oh, also, semi related, but regardless of the above, Priests of Winter (the first level ones) need a way to spread snow. Maybe a "Minor Snowfall" spell, whereby the only effect it has is spreading snow on the tile you're standing on.

 

[Valkrionn]

I was planning on a 'freeze' type spell. Scorch can now get snow all the way to plains... Need a way to replace what others scorch away. I like you suggestion for the hell terrain versions, as well...

 

[WarKirby]

While you're implementing the frozen wasteland, make sure to add appropriate combat bonuses there for battlemasters, drifa, wilboman, frostlings, and the Winterborn promo.

I think some of the above may have bonuses in snow, but NOT tundra. In whichcase, they should have tundra bonuses added.

Oh, and while we're on this general topic, could you give the Illians +1 from tundra, the same as doviello get?

 

[Valkrionn]

Doviello don't have it any more. Rather, I added something that can benefit any civ, but works best for them... Yaranga improvement. Basically, a herder's camp. Chance to find deer, fur, bison, doesn't remove forest. Small yields, boosts for the Doviello. I think it's better than a flat boost, AND gives them another reason to run FoL.

But yes, combat bonuses will be added to all appropriate units.

 

[far_wanderer]

I was planning on a 'freeze' type spell. Scorch can now get snow all the way to plains... Need a way to replace what others scorch away. I like you suggestion for the hell terrain versions, as well...

One of the future plans for my attempt to improve the magic system involved that exact spell - Freeze. I worked out a terraforming table that you're welcome to use if you want.

Spoiler :

Sc=Scorch, F=Freeze, Sp=Spring, V=Vitalize.

Grassland – Sc/Plains, F/Plains, Sp/Marsh, V/Plains
Plains – Sc/Desert, F/Tundra, Sp/Marsh, V/Grassland
Marsh – Sc/Plains, F/Plains, Sp/none, V/Grassland
Desert – Sc/none, F/Tundra, Sp/Plains, V/Plains
Ice – Sc/Tundra, F/none, Sp/none, V/Plains
Tundra – Sc/Desert, F/Ice, Sp/none, V/Plains

Adding to that your theme of White Hand vs Hell, Freeze should probably have the added ability to directly convert hell terrain to Ice.

 

[Valkrionn]

One more thing - What music would be best? Start suggesting now or I'll go with whatever I feel like grabbing.

 

[Valkrionn]

One of the future plans for my attempt to improve the magic system involved that exact spell - Freeze. I worked out a terraforming table that you're welcome to use if you want.

Spoiler :

Sc=Scorch, F=Freeze, Sp=Spring, V=Vitalize.

Grassland – Sc/Plains, F/Plains, Sp/Marsh, V/Plains
Plains – Sc/Desert, F/Tundra, Sp/Marsh, V/Grassland
Marsh – Sc/Plains, F/Plains, Sp/none, V/Grassland
Desert – Sc/none, F/Tundra, Sp/Plains, V/Plains
Ice – Sc/Tundra, F/none, Sp/none, V/Plains
Tundra – Sc/Desert, F/Ice, Sp/none, V/Plains

Adding to that your theme of White Hand vs Hell, Freeze should probably have the added ability to directly convert hell terrain to Ice.

I like it. Think I'll wait and see how Jean's code works first, but it'll probably end up something like that.... Seems like Scorch may be better balanced than what it currently is.

And I'll probably have two Freeze spells, one normal, one requiring Divine. Normal will be a reverse scorch, divine will be the freeze+sanctify.

 

[Brokenbone]

First off, that was a great story by KillerClowns.

Anyhow, as to the post just above about freeze+sanctify, any chance that this means the freeze might have a radius other than "one tile"? Freezing your empire square by square, including freezing impassable terrain like mountains, would seem a PITA. Doing it in little 3x3 swathes isn't a lot more fun, granted, but it's better than nothing.

Additionally I guess "freeze" might be a decent candidate for auto-casting, much like Sanctify, which while I don't see it being that beneficial in your own empire, would maybe make life easier for your stacks marching through other territory... creating a road of ice as they go. This'd benefit the Winterborn sorts in your stack, as well as neutralize any terrain advantages that your enemies might've expected to enjoy, such as demons on hell terrain.

Come to think for a moment regarding Winterborn... I wonder if that's a promo that Temples of the Hand ought start granting (whether 100% chance, or less) even for non Illian / Doviello. That is, you've invited the White Hand into your empire, everything's freezing, and so is your next generation of armies etc., at least if they're trained in a city that's fully embraced the White Hand.