White Hand for FFPlus

Prehaps that would be the best option for the WH.
Making a council of civs with Auric as the permanent chairman and able to veto any desision.
 
Hey so Magister had a good point about simply allowing basic frostlings to upgrade into archers or the wolf riders. Maybe age or level based?
 
I've been suggesting this idea for a while, but very few people were really interested so I abandoned it. I wanted to put back some AOI things (Fiacra the North Wind, Blizzards everywhere, Mokka and the like). I also wanted Frostlings to be available for everyone - so the race is worth creating.
 
After reading all the posts here I came up with this idea.

Winterpact
Ritual, requires no state religion, AC 60 (or 70 or 80 or whichever number you see fit) and some late tech.
Spreads the White Hand to your capital.
Makes it impossible to have a state religion other than the White Hand so it’s either the White Hand or nothing (alternatively the White Hand could be a guild for practical purposes only and Winterpact would give you Agnostic trait).
Your land slowly freezes (considerably faster after Ascension) probably some bonus like + 1 :food: from snow, + 1 :hammers: from tundra.
Makes you a permanent ally of all other members of the Pact, or makes you a vassal of the founder of the White Hand (again as you see fit).

The White Hand is founded by Illians from the start or upon completing the White Hand (whichever you see fit) or by the first civilization to complete the Winterpact. Any unit created in city with the White Hand has a chance to start with Winterborn. Its would have its own priests and high priest the three given by the White Hand ritual being their unique better version.

Alternative for permanent alliance and vassalisation would be to make it sign defensive pact with all other members of the Pact and make it impossible to conduct diplomacy with civs that are not in the Pact (that would have no effect on Auric as he would become a member of the Pact by completing the White Hand that would not include the no-diplomacy effect or be its member from the start). Members of the Pact would have their own council whose head would be the founder of the White Hand. A more complex version of this council would be to give it its own menu and make it so that any member may propose a resolution at any time with the head of the council having the right to veto any resolution. To leave the Pact you have to declare war on any of its members. It would reverse all the effect of the ritual and make it impossible to return to the Pact.
 
Whatever you do to the priests of winter, keep the three uber priests for the Illians the way they are. Any further buildable priests would make good sense to be weaker tho.
 
Hey also don't forget it would be nice to be able to upgrade your frostlings. Though as recon units I dig the fact they gain training xp from hunting lodges. In my last game they were my recon force. Had about 50
 
Here's an edited quote of your first post... Bold is yes, italic is maybe, and marked out lines are a no at the moment. ;) Put a comment after most of them, indented.

It would be cool to add the White Hand as a new religion. Iirc, the priests of Mulcarn were everywhere (and not only in the Illians cities), so we can assume the White Hand can be spread everywhere, and some civs can be converted to the Illians' cause. I got some ideas :

- It will be the only religion available to the Illians.

- The White Hand religion spanws Ice terrain everywhere in the empire of the civ, and the Ice provides +1 :food:.

Waiting on Jean Elcard's terrain conversion system for this, it's the whole reason I haven't started yet. It's already doing exactly that for the Illians, shouldn't be too difficult to apply to the religion. Not sure how I'll handle the food, might have to make a new Ice terrain.​

- When an ennemy unit enters the land, there is a % chance to spawn a Blizzard which will damage him, just like the Treants mechanic.

Too similar to an existing mechanic.​

- Temples of the Hand and Priests of Winter can be built by every WH civ, and the temples protect the civ from hellish terrain.

- When the Illians complete the Draw, the WH civs won't declare war to the Illians (perhaps a diplo penalty)


- The religion itself can be founded by the ritual (so Illians can't rush and start converting everyone to avoid troubles with the Draw), only Illians can found it. It would be illogical to have this religion without Illians.

Not sure on this one yet. I know I'm going to have it be founded by the White Hand ritual, but I'm not sure if I'll allow it without the Illians or not.​

- You can build the hero Mokka. If he already exists, it will convert him to your cause. If he died, it will ressurect him. Fiacra the North Wind can be another hero.

Going to make a Frostling faction that comes in to play after the Illians finish their ritual to summon them(forgot the name). Mokka is the hero, and the faction will be at peace with White Hand civs. Won't automatically be at peace with the Illians, they need to establish the religion for the Frostlings to recognize them.​

- Spreading this religion will lower the AC or freeze it (it means if there is any change, it will be reduced). Demons don't like to enter a cold world...


- The religion makes anyone Evil. So if you want to change your alignment without triggering the Apocalypse (which is annoying...lol), it's an adequate alternative.

- It will grant a diplo bonus with the Illians. It will grant a diplo penalty with everyone else, but the Doviello.


- Ice mana = Temples of the Hand x% faster, and Blizzards are +x% likely to happen.

- The religion wonder would be a Great Frostling Husbandry. 1 unit out of 2 will start with the Frostling promotion. And there are the standard bonus: Ice mana, +1 :gold: for every city with the religion, etc...

Seems like too much of a buff for a religion guaranteed to be founded by a civ... The wonder should be weak, providing only commerce and mana, possibly some small bonus. Like the Steamworks for the Ordo Machinarum.​

- If you have the Barbarian Trait, you will be able to hire a frostling in empty lairs, just like the Clan of Embers in goblin forts.

Frostlings will be their own civ, so that won't work.​

- If Auric Ascended is built, the civs with the religion start a Golden Age.

- Entering Letum Frigus will add +1 :) in all of your cities, and a diplo bonus with the Illians - and maybe a smaller one with the Doviello.

Not sure, but I think that's too powerful.​

- The civs with WH won't get the Godslayer when AA is built.

- The religion won't bring additional culture, but science instead, just like AV.

Hammers, not culture or science. Just like the inscription event.​

And maybe a new civic: Rationality or Cold Blood or whatever.

Here is a list of the possible effects:
- +10% Millitary unit Production with WH cities
- +1 :hammers: in Ice
- 20% chance to convert defeated units (into frostlings)
- Additionnal Diplo Penalty with everyone non-WH.
- +2 :) in all cities.
- -25% :gp: birth rate
- -25% :culture:
- -25% :mad: Weariness. (That's because people with cold blood are never angry...)


Possible. Could make a council civic for them including some of those bonuses.​
 
Going to make a Frostling faction that comes in to play after the Illians finish their ritual to summon them(forgot the name). Mokka is the hero, and the faction will be at peace with White Hand civs. Won't automatically be at peace with the Illians, they need to establish the religion for the Frostlings to recognize them.

Do you mean Illians will be able to switch with this civ when they found the religion? And are you going to resurrect some AOI heroes such as Fiacra the North Wind or Taranis?

And I was thinking about a new type of victory, called "Return of Age of Ice" or "Gone to Ice" or "Frozen" : if more than x% of the map is covered with ice, then the Illians and the most important WH civ win.
 
Do you mean Illians will be able to switch with this civ when they found the religion? And are you going to resurrect some AOI heroes such as Fiacra the North Wind or Taranis?

And I was thinking about a new type of victory, called "Return of Age of Ice" or "Gone to Ice" or "Frozen" : if more than x% of the map is covered with ice, then the Illians and the most important WH civ win.

Or Mercurian style?
 
I'd say have the White Hand mostly leave the AC alone or (in the case of the Draw) raise it; you're looking after yourself, first and foremost, and screw the rest of the world. AC lowering explicitly requires acts of goodness, or actively hunting Hell. But so long as Auric Ascended is on the board, the AC should be unable to rise. He is the God of Stasis, after all.
 
there are alot of opinions on here ... although one thing that stands out are the opinions on Vassalization.

When Auric is Ascended, everyone following the white hand should become his vassal. Until then, no vassalization. Heck, they can fued for all I care. But when Auric takes up the Ice sphere, automatic Vassalize.



The AC should be unallowed to raise or lower as long as Auric Ascended is alive.
 
Sorry for resurrecting this tread. I was going to write it two weeks ago. I see that decision has already been made on how to include the White Hand but if someone was interested in my idea here is the rest of it.

Every member of the Pact would be able to propose a resolution (no more often than once every ten turns). This would require a button, probably in the foreign advisor menu, “Call the Council”. A menu would pop up with resolutions available.

Declare war on X
Challenge the Head of the Council
Force the White Hand
Possible other resolutions

All leaders would have Defensive Pacts with each other and would be unable to declare war on anyone but other members (which would result in leaving the Pact) they would only be able to declare war on third parties through a resolution.
The council would be able to force all members to adopt the White Hand if some of its members have no state religion.
The Head of the Pact would initially be the founder of the White Hand. He or she could veto any resolution. To replace the Head of the Pact one can challenge him/her. For those looking for lore justification you can think that while the Head was chosen by the aspect of the ice (that is Auric if he is in the game and the first to complete the Pact if he is not present) defeating him/her could cause the aspect to choose someone else. Challenge would cancel Defensive Pacts between members, make the challenger declare war on the Head of the Council and resign Defensive Pacts between every member but the two warring ones (it is supposed to create an effect of internal brawl within the Pact). During the challenge no resolutions can be proposed. It is won by capturing the capital of opposing party which gives winner an option to leave the loser free or make him/her vassal of the new Head of the Council. Additional flavor could be to make it so that the leader of the losing party is executed – loses his traits and ability to Ascend (for Auric).
 
Well one of the things I love about FFH in general and FF+ in particular is the fact that every civ has it's own different playstyle. The Malakim are the desert people, the jotnar are the few but powerful giants, and the illians are the ice dudes who have their leader become a god.

To make that available to anyone who can conquer the Illian capital would dillute the entire flavor of the illians. What's the point in playing Auric if you can play any other civ and still play aurics role?
 
The Ljos are the nature people, that doesn't prevent other civs from following the same path as them and researching FoL.
 
The Ljos are the nature people, that doesn't prevent other civs from following the same path as them and researching FoL.

True, but other races can't improve the terrain around a city without also destroying those precious trees. There is still a massive benefit for being elves with FoL.

I have no problem with the white hand as a religion, in fact I'm quite excited to try it. The problem starts when the white hand religion makes any other civ interchangable with the Illians.
 
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