Although we might get very few, unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll get all the right buffs needed in the next update. As we’ve discussed before in the forum, it really shows that there’s isn’t much time spent with in-depth and breadth playing at Firaxis or they would have noticed many key glaring issues that were released in patches and have either taken too long to be fixed or were never fixed just because the people that make decisions don’t experience them themselves. I’m putting my hopes on @pokiehl’s Civ improvements mod. He just makes buffs fun and it’s because he gets it as a player.
Although we might get very few, unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll get all the right buffs needed in the next update. As we’ve discussed before in the forum, it really shows that there’s isn’t much time spent with in-depth and breadth playing at Firaxis or they would have noticed many key glaring issues that were released in patches and have either taken too long to be fixed or were never fixed just because the people that make decisions don’t experience them themselves. I’m putting my hopes on @pokiehl’s Civ improvements mod. He just makes buffs fun and it’s because he gets it as a player.
Agreed that Khmer and Mapuche are the weakest right now (Georgia a bit also, but not that much).
-For Khmer, the problem is that for them to work, you need to found a religion, and you need at least the reliquaries belief. Not only are you not guaranteed neither of those, but also Khmer is not particularly better than any vanilla civ at getting a religion. The aqueduct district, which seems to synergize with some UA's in Khmer pack, doesn't get any bonuses to its production, i.e. you don't get it earlier or at a reduced price or are able to pay for it in any other currency which is not raw production. On top of that, even with those things, relying on getting your missionaries killed is just a bummer.
A fix could be in the line of:
-Give them another way to get their relics. Maybe give them a relic for every 5 foreigner cities converted to the religion which is majority in Khmer lands.
-Make it easier for them to obtain a religion or make their game not so dependent on it. Maybe HS's next to a river also give them +1 GP point.
-Fix aqueduct dependence. Maybe give them +50% aqueduct production if city's housing is low (e.g. 7/8 citizens).
-For the Mapuche, the problem is more complex and resides more in how their abbilities relate to the loyalty mechanic. On one hand, they have a good combat bonus against Golden Age civs, but you are certainly limited in what you can do with that, considering that most of the time is almost impossible to hold on those civ's cities without getting the vast majority of them, thus incurring in undesired crappy cities and grievances.
On the other hand, their loyalty damage attached to killing enemy units and pillaging seems poorly balanced with the other. Killing an enemy unit is -20 and pillaging a tile, -5. You'd have to kill 5 units in a turn, or 4 units and 4 hexes pillaged to make the city revolt. Even if you manage to get close to revolt, the city will probably get on their feet again in 2-3 turns. Loyalty/Ammenities loss may crack this one's production, but the enemy sure has others. Againt full loyalty cities this is useless. Against losing-loyalty cities, why not just wait?
At last, their UI don't seem to serve any purpose in this. Mapuche can't do anything with extra culture, neither in militar or loyalty-wise. The extra culture/tourism isn't even that much, considering you can only spam those on breathtaking appeal tiles.
A fix could be in the line of:
-Give them the opportunity to attack GA opponents. Give them +50% loyalty on enemy conquered cities as long as the enemy is on a Golden Age.
-Make their loyalty attack abbility useful. Make it dependant on enemy's Age. -10 loyalty if enemy is on Dark Age, -20 on normal and -30 on Golden. Same with pillaged tiles; -5, -10, -15.
-Make their UI synergize with the others. Keep culture but give it something in the line of loyalty, the same way as spanish missions.
I don't know. Extra Missionary charges and extra pressure from trade routes. And your Cities get faith and amenities from other religions and you get the benefit of multiple religious beliefs. And that's on top of the extra housing and faith from the UI and the killer Hefalumps you've already mentioned.
If you look at the Steam win % stats, Gandhi is bottom for the Vanilla civs and Chandra for the R&F civs. Is that because they are hard to win or because people take one look and think boring? I finally made myself play Gandhi the other day and went for a small map so I could get it over with quicker!
It doesn’t help that religious victory is one of the dullest victory types.
The amusing thing to do with India is to focus a bunch of trade routes against a Holy City and convert it, then you're engaged in a religious emergency.
I actually didn't even realize they updated Dharma with GS. Sadly it's still reliant on people spreading the faiths into you - and most beliefs aren't that good. If this was civ5 that ability would be rockin'!
Satyagraha similarly has some reliance on other civs (namely that they have a religion) but I think if it were like, +5% faith instead of just +5, that would be a whole different story.
I don't know how you represent India with just one civ ability that isn't bonus spaghetti, though. Pretty much anything is better than "population growth," as fun as that was.
FWIW I was pretty underwhelmed with India and Dharma until I actually played them. Dharma is really, really good and I think a lot of people are sleeping on it. When you have Holy Sites with Choral Music, Feed the World, and Jesuit Education in all of your cities... that's obviously really strong.
Now I will say that the strength of the ability probably varies a lot depending on the settings a person plays with. On the settings that I play on (small maps) I have a pretty good chance of getting all four religions (and thus all four follower beliefs) in my cities. On larger maps where the beliefs I want my spawn really, really far away and could be eradicated before I get them it obviously isn't going to be as good.
One thing that does hurt Dharma a little bit is that the follower beliefs always seem to get taken in the same order by the AI - Warrior Monks and Divine Inspiration always seem to get taken early, and at least to me those are nowhere near as appealing as some of the others. So in a game with less religions being founded, you're probably getting stuck less desirable beliefs.
The chateau needs something even just removing its adjacency limitations along rivers.
Canada needs something like +1 to all lumber mills
Played a few Khmer games and they are OK, I’d give their Domreys a couple of plusses but otherwise I like em. Most times I play them without pushing relics, they do great just with phat cities.
Georgia also needs something.
The way they really cut the power of the chateaux and the missions by splitting their bonuses to other sources was kinda unfortunate. Pairidaeza (sp?) do what chateaux do only better.
Ive tried Canada a couple times but what I keep coming back to is they need +1 food on tundra. Russia gets +1 production (and faith,) making their tundra like plains. If Canada had tundra like grassland, they would immediately open a huge niche where all their bonuses would suddenly synergize. They tried to do it by giving them tundra farms but that simple isn’t viable early game- the better play is always to just go farm actual grassland. The extra hammer from various improvements is only making up for tundra not being plains!
The only actual advantage is that double extraction rate, but that’s far more a late game thing.
The thing to remember about Canada is that Blizzards add yields at a pretty good rate. So tundra isn't as bad as it looks on paper once a couple blizzards have passed through.
The thing to remember about Canada is that Blizzards add yields at a pretty good rate. So tundra isn't as bad as it looks on paper once a couple blizzards have passed through.
That's true, but Russia gets that as well, AND lots of yields on the tundra, AND blizzard immunity. Canada should at least get some kind of blizzard protection even if they don't get more yields.
Personally, I think Canada should not get a flat tundra yield bonus like Russia does; however, I think their tundra FARMS should get an extra food.
Anyway, Canada aside, the change I want isn't a balance change. In fact it's probably anti-balance. But what I want is... polders to also go on Marsh, like civ 5. In fact, give the Dutch a unique dam district while we're at it!
What about giving Canada bonuses to districts if they're on snow or tundra. Like +25% production on districts and buildings in them when placed on snow or tundra. Or provide a minor adjacency bonus for tundra and snow for campuses, commercial hubs, theater squares, harbors, and industrial zones.
Canada are so terrible I just ignore them in these sorts of discussion.
Canada could really use a big overhaul. The issue isn’t power level - they are probably okay in terms of just sheer power. But I just think they’re a mess, and boring, and do a poor job of feeling particularly Canadian or even just fun.
What’s wrong with? Well, the bonuses are all over the place. Tundra farms are silly. Mounties are way too meme and make no sense as a military unit (they’re police ie civilian not military) - Canada need a more straightforward military unit, with the Mountie maybe being a second unit replacing the Naturalist. And the surprise war thing is way too cute by half.
In concept, Canada should be like Mali for snow. The buff to strategic resources in tundra was a good change, and the Civ should go in that direction way more.
That's true, but Russia gets that as well, AND lots of yields on the tundra, AND blizzard immunity. Canada should at least get some kind of blizzard protection even if they don't get more yields.
Personally, I think Canada should not get a flat tundra yield bonus like Russia does; however, I think their tundra FARMS should get an extra food.
Anyway, Canada aside, the change I want isn't a balance change. In fact it's probably anti-balance. But what I want is... polders to also go on Marsh, like civ 5. In fact, give the Dutch a unique dam district while we're at it!
Canada could really use a big overhaul. The bonus are all over the place. Tundra farms is silly. Mounties are too meme - Canada need a more straightforward military unit, with the Mountie maybe being a second unit. And the surprise war thing is too cute by half.
In concept, Canada should be like Mali for snow, The buff to strategic resources in tundra was a good change, and the Civ should go in that direction way more.
I don't understand why people think Russia is so much better on the tundra than Canada is. Russia gets +1 production and +1 faith from tundra tiles, while Canada gets +1 production from any mine and lumbermill they build +1 food to farms. This came up in the science elimination thread, but everyone's knock on Canada is that they're food poor... yet they get more than Russia does from the same tiles? Why do people believe so much more in Russia's ability to grow in tundra compared to Canada?
Is it purely because of Feed the World? While I can certainly see the value in that, everyone in that elimination thread was citing Jesuit Education as the obvious choice for Russia players, and TBH I can get Feed the World fairly easily as Canada just by building a Holy Site and running the prayer project non stop (since with Canada I can bypass building the army I need to defend myself against the inevitable AI surprise declaration on higher difficulties). So I don't know if I really buy that TBH... the only way I'm missing out on the Aurora pantheon or Feed the World belief as Canada is (coincidentally enough) if Russia is in the game. Aurora normally seems to stick around and Feed the World won't go until after the AI takes Warrior Monks, the wonder/faith belief, and I think Jesuit Education (that seems to be the order the AI always chooses them?).
The only answer I seemed to get in that thread was that Russia should settle outside of the tundra for food... but so can Canada, so that doesn't really work either. I must be missing something that makes Russia perfectly serviceable with a tundra start (and let's be honest, Russia is more than serviceable) while it's a death sentence for Canada. Maybe I'm an idiot, but at the same time nobody's bothered to point out an answer either.
I get that I'm one of the few Canada defenders on the forums but I think they're fine, I really do. They're not top tier or anything, but I don't think they're anywhere near as weak as others make them out to be. People shrug off their immunity to surprise war declarations (mostly because they really want the ability to declare surprise wars or conquer city states themselves), but that allows you to get away with a lot that you might not be able to otherwise (like pushing religion early while everyone else is churning out warriors and slingers to defend themselves). I think the mountie is one of the more interesting unique units in the game - gasp, a unique unit that's not for combat! - and planning out national parks and hockey rink setups can be fun. I will give you that they went full-on cliche with Canada... but they kind of do that with a lot of civs in the game to some extent anyways.
If you absolutely have to buff Canada... maybe something trade related? Something like "Trade routes receive +1 food for every _________ (camp? tundra farm?) in a city's radius" similar to the Cree's ability might work.
I don't understand why people think Russia is so much better on the tundra than Canada is. Russia gets +1 production and +1 faith from tundra tiles, while Canada gets +1 production from any mine and lumbermill they build +1 food to farms. This came up in the science elimination thread, but everyone's knock on Canada is that they're food poor... yet they get more than Russia does from the same tiles? Why do people believe so much more in Russia's ability to grow in tundra compared to Canada?
Is it purely because of Feed the World? While I can certainly see the value in that, everyone in that elimination thread was citing Jesuit Education as the obvious choice for Russia players, and TBH I can get Feed the World fairly easily as Canada just by building a Holy Site and running the prayer project non stop (since with Canada I can bypass building the army I need to defend myself against the inevitable AI surprise declaration on higher difficulties). So I don't know if I really buy that TBH... the only way I'm missing out on the Aurora pantheon or Feed the World belief as Canada is (coincidentally enough) if Russia is in the game. Aurora normally seems to stick around and Feed the World won't go until after the AI takes Warrior Monks, the wonder/faith belief, and I think Jesuit Education (that seems to be the order the AI always chooses them?).
The only answer I seemed to get in that thread was that Russia should settle outside of the tundra for food... but so can Canada, so that doesn't really work either. I must be missing something that makes Russia perfectly serviceable with a tundra start (and let's be honest, Russia is more than serviceable) while it's a death sentence for Canada. Maybe I'm an idiot, but at the same time nobody's bothered to point out an answer either.
I get that I'm one of the few Canada defenders on the forums but I think they're fine, I really do. They're not top tier or anything, but I don't think they're anywhere near as weak as others make them out to be. People shrug off their immunity to surprise war declarations (mostly because they really want the ability to declare surprise wars or conquer city states themselves), but that allows you to get away with a lot that you might not be able to otherwise (like pushing religion early while everyone else is churning out warriors and slingers to defend themselves). I think the mountie is one of the more interesting unique units in the game - gasp, a unique unit that's not for combat! - and planning out national parks and hockey rink setups can be fun. I will give you that they went full-on cliche with Canada... but they kind of do that with a lot of civs in the game to some extent anyways.
If you absolutely have to buff Canada... maybe something trade related? Something like "Trade routes receive +1 food for every _________ (camp? tundra farm?) in a city's radius" similar to the Cree's ability might work.
I think the problem might be you're assuming Russia wants a lot of food. Usually when I settle in tundra as Russia it's to play wide, with 7ish pop cities. So after 1-2 good food tiles I'm more concerned about other yields then food.
Second Russia's bonus on tundra is active immediately. No investment in making buildings to improve tiles. Thats a big gap. Even if the yields were net the same then they wouldn't be even close in potential due to the turn 1 vs turn 25ish difference.
Third Russia's faith gets them one of the earliest pantheons, which offers lots of early game flexibility that Canada will lack.
Extra food on a tile barely worth working that costs an improvement isn't even close to the extra production and faith on the same tile Russia would have. I'll admit the other half of their ability increasing production is better, but I circle back to my second point and say turn 1 yields >> turn 25 maybe yields.
I get that I'm one of the few Canada defenders on the forums but I think they're fine, I really do. They're not top tier or anything, but I don't think they're anywhere near as weak as others make them out to be.
Canada could really use a big overhaul. The issue isn’t power level - they are probably okay in terms of just sheer power. But I just think they’re a mess, and boring, and do a poor job of feeling particularly Canadian or even just fun.
As I said, I think Canada are okay power-wise. Bonuses for resources and Lumbermills are good. The declare war thing is powerful.
I just think the current build is lame. They don’t feel particularly Canadian. I don’t think the mechanics are fun. The Mountie is anachronistic. The Tundra Farms are silly. I don’t mind they can’t Declare Surprise War, but the immunity from Delcare War makes the game less interesting. I like the Lumbermills and Strategic Resources and Hokey Rink, and the Diplo Buff is fine, but that’s it.
I think FXS did a much better job making America (after some tweaking), Australia and Brazil flavourful and cool to play. But if people like Canada as built, hey, go for it.
I don't understand why people think Russia is so much better on the tundra than Canada is. Russia gets +1 production and +1 faith from tundra tiles, while Canada gets +1 production from any mine and lumbermill they build +1 food to farms. This came up in the science elimination thread, but everyone's knock on Canada is that they're food poor... yet they get more than Russia does from the same tiles? Why do people believe so much more in Russia's ability to grow in tundra compared to Canada?
Only Canadian camps get more food. They can build farms on the tundra but this isn't really viable before replaceable parts. All those +1's canada gets to improvements are already given to Russia for free. And russia gets faith. And more importantly, Russia is looking for dance of the aurora, district gameplay. Canada is actually geared towards working these tiles with the improvements and hockey rinks being a central focus.
This leads to the exact same issue as the mali: just because you get bonuses in marginal terrain doesn't mean it isn't better to go work good terrain. Sugubas work just as well in grassland as desert. Normally this ability to just "go settle actually good land" works for every civ, except canada is leaving almost all of its bonuses on the table if they do that, where a civ like mali keeps sugubas, mine gold, etc.
And Canada's tundra bonuses aren't even bad, they just aren't as impactful until late game when more strategics show up in the tundra and you have the farm technology to make it work.
For what it’s worth, I’d suggest Canada get tweaked as follows.
Four Faces of Peace. Keep it as is, but other Civs can Declare Surprise War against you (ie Canada prevented from Declare SW, but others aren’t), but you get +Diplo Favour if someone Declares Surprise or Formal War on you or an Ally. Make FFOP the Leader Ability, not the Civ ability.
Last Best West. Make this the Civ Ability. Keep as is, but: get rid of Tundra Farms, and instead City Centre just gets additional Food and Housing from adjacent Tundra or Snow Tiles; LBW gives you the Mountie Unit as a direct replacement for the Naturalist (still bought with production or gold, not faith), and give Canada a more general bonus for National Parks (maybe Tundra, Snow and Mountains have higher base appeal).
Unique Unit. Give Canada a proper Melee or Heavy Cav Military Unit (bit like the digger) or a unique Industrial Era Scout, so they get two units in total, and the Mountie doesn’t feel so much like a Meme.
Hockey Rink. Fine as it is.
Yeah. I’d play that. You’d still be at risk of getting attacked at higher levels, and no surprise wars is still a limitation, but attacking Canada is more interesting because it could potentially buff them by giving them DF, and more so if they then get an Emergency or the back of it. You’d also hopefully reduce some of the silliness of Canada, ie Mounties and Tundra Farms.
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's canada gets to improvements are already given to Russia for free. And russia gets faith. And more importantly, Russia is looking for dance of the aurora, district gameplay. Canada is actually geared towards working these tiles with the improvements and hockey rinks being a central focus. 
