[GS] Who will be buffed in the next update?

[AntSou]

He's still working on it. It's nearing completion.

So that's why Firaxis are taking so long. They are waiting on pokiehl to release his mod so that they can release an update the following day and break it

 

[bengalryan9]

I think FXS did a much better job making America (after some tweaking)

I find America to be a pretty boring civ TBH. A bit too vanilla for me.

but the immunity from Delcare War makes the game less interesting.

Maybe to some, sure. As someone who prefers to play as a builder, I find the inevitable early AI zerg rush on Deity to be even less interesting, but that's just my opinion.

Only Canadian camps get more food. They can build farms on the tundra but this isn't really viable before replaceable parts. All those +1's canada gets to improvements are already given to Russia for free. And russia gets faith. And more importantly, Russia is looking for dance of the aurora, district gameplay. Canada is actually geared towards working these tiles with the improvements and hockey rinks being a central focus.

And I get that, but here's what I'm saying:
1) Canada doesn't get extra food... but they still get more than Russia does from those same tiles. If people are going to cite a lack of food as being crippling towards Canada (and I'm not saying that's my opinion, just what I've seen tons of people say), why don't people say the same thing about Russia?
2) Dance of the Aurora is just as good for Canada as it is for Russia, and if I'm Canada I feel pretty confident about my chance at getting it in any game that doesn't have Russia in it. Holy Sites are another way for Canada to boost appeal for national parks, too, so I can benefit from them that way as well.
3) The instant +1 production from tiles Russia gets over Canada is a nice advantage for sure, but it's not like you're not going to mine or build lumbermills on all those tiles eventually anyways. Obviously it's a huge plus for Russia early on and early advantages tend to be the most impactful, but Canada can squeeze out that builder while Russia is training troops.
4) The faith from worked tiles is nice... but how many tiles are you going to be working with no food?

Not saying Russia isn't better than Canada (they are), I just think the issues with Canada are a bit overstated. I think there are a lot of players that don't like Canada simply because they don't like Canada being in Civilization, TBH. I do appreciate the feedback, though.

 

[Leucarum]

Hmm... So my two favourite civs (Canada and Mapuche) are both being highlighted on this thread I guess maybe I prefer weaker civs...

I find myself agreeing that tundra farms for Canada are a bit of a pain. One problem that a lot of people haven't really brought up is that feudalism-era farm diamonds/triangles compete with space and suitable land for your national parks. It makes the available options for their signature strategy far fewer than they would otherwise be on most maps. Giving a flat bonus to food on tundra seems a bit bland though and part of the fun (for me) in playing Canada is turning barren lands into something useful.

As for Mapuche I think their initial design was around loyalty but it didn't pan out and now their abilities all feel a bit disconnected. The golden age ability and chemamull are both really fun, I'd just like it if they felt more unified...

 

[enKage]

I still think the Cree should get a free starting scout. Their scout is too expensive, which makes the Cree actually worse at early scouting. A free scout would fix that, because on a "net" basis they'd end up cheaper overall, and it would be a cool and super unique ability. I honestly don't know why this isn't already a thing.

This would make Cree too strong in terms of early rush and nearly guarantee golden are, so it would require lowering base strenght of okhis. They are more expensive (max 3? turns more to build) BUT free promotion so no penalty on either hills or woods, so they quickly level with others in terms of exploration. Cree are perfectly balanced civ now and no reworks here please

I think Khmer and Georgia are first to fix as all their uniques are bottom half, followed by Mapuche Zulu and Scotland.
The latter two because these are no doubt the 2 most boring civs ever, you basically always do the same. Taking a little from main bonus and adding sth to other area would fix it and make them more enjoyable and flexible.

 

[steveg700]

Khmer have good design but need some better numbers. Give them 50% production to acqueducts. Let their farm adjacency stack if there's another acqueduct as well (so it's not limited to +2 food, you get +4 food or more). Jayavarman's bonus should get bumped up some too. Or maybe +1 faith adjacency for river tiles. Something along those lines.... They need some buffs..

To my mind, the unique leader and civ abilities feel like something I could get from a modded civ. Tacking on some extra yields for aqueducts next to rivers is very basic, and doesn't really make me play them any differently than I would any other civ. Everyone likes to build cities by rivers.

Baray should be a unique replacement for the aqueduct that provides fresh water as a regional effect. The Khmer aren't notable for settling cities the same places everyone else settles cities. They're notable for producting huge populations in jungles and marshes where supplying potable water would normally be a kiss of death (the water infrastructure breaking down is probably what did them in, but in this franchise we don't deal with the pesky elements of civilization in decline).

And maybe something like they can use religious unit charges like they were military engineers, to get those aqueducts built faster.

Also, lower cost on domreys. No point in having a beefy unique unit and then upscaling the cost of that unit so the player won't actually get to build many of them before they're obsolesced.

 

[Jkchart]

Overall, I think the Civs are well balanced. So any balance changes are really playing at the edges.

I don't know how the Mapuche get fixed. They currently work really well as an AI Civ - I've had some really cool games where the Mapuche have just abused me with their Golden Age bonus. It's very cool. But as a human player Civ, yeah, I don't know what to do with them. Maybe they just stay as they are, and we all accept they sort of suck a little bit.

I still think the Cree should get a free starting scout. Their scout is too expensive, which makes the Cree actually worse at early scouting. A free scout would fix that, because on a "net" basis they'd end up cheaper overall, and it would be a cool and super unique ability. I honestly don't know why this isn't already a thing.

I think England's bonuses could use another look. They don't need a buff or de-buff, but there bonuses do just feel a bit of a mess. Personally, I think they should lose the free ships and free melee unit for Pax B, and instead just get a flat discount building naval units and melee units in Cities on foreign continents. I think they could also just get a flat +% to Industrial Zones and their buildings (rather than just for the buildings), with maybe the trade-off being their Coal Plants pollute more in the Industrial and Modern Era. My only nervousness about suggesting any changes is that England has gone through so many rounds of just "suck" to get them where they are now - i.e. pretty fun - that I'm nervous about FXS playing with them again.

Spain and (before someone mentions them) Georgia are fine. I hope FXS don't touch them. I think they would more benefit from just Religion getting another balance pass. France's UI still sucks, but that would surely only require a very minor tweak to improve.

Khmer could maybe use a buff. I play Khmer a bit, and they are really fun. But I do think they're sort of underpowered. They maybe just need some better bonuses around their Aqueduct, although I don't know what.

I think Korea, China and America all suffer from being a bit boring. Balanced, yes. Fun? Meh. But they are balanced, and maybe the issue is more they just don't appeal to me. I think both Korea and China could benefit from having a second unique unit, just so they could be slightly more active Civs, but that's beyond the scope of a patch. I think America's problem is just that Teddy is quite a quirkly leader. The US could probably use an Alt Leader that's a bit more military / industry focused, so you can actually play the US as more of a Military super power. But again, way beyond the scope of a patch.

I have no idea what to do with Mapuche either. Cree absolutely should get a free Okitchitaw.

I think England is fine and we shouldn't fix a Civ that FINALLY works, and works well. Sure it's a bit all over the place, but it's finally an interesting civ that has some interesting synergy.

I also agree that Spain and Georgia are fine. I had a fantastic game as Georgia after they were updated. The only thing that doesn't work for them is the Khevsur, but really we know WHY that is...

Korea is a bit stale, but strong. It's been awhile since I've played China or America.

 

[Jkchart]

Many of you must not play Cambodia often. Khmer suffer from having their synergies locked behind getting a pantheon. The river goddess pantheon and reliquaries belief are essential to winning as Jayavarman. Without a strong backbone to start hording works, the game is over. Ideally, once a city is founded, they should be able to select a pantheon, or, perhaps they can get a pantheon once they found a holy site. I can’t tell you how many times I have had to restart because someone took river goddess or reliquaries and ruined my chance at victory. The Khmer are one of my favorite civs due to the challenge they present much akin to Georgia, but both are in dire need of buffs.

I agree that Khmer is wonderful if challenging

 

[steveg700]

Spain and (before someone mentions them) Georgia are fine. I hope FXS don't touch them. I think they would more benefit from just Religion getting another balance pass. France's UI still sucks, but that would surely only require a very minor tweak to improve.

I would go so far as to say Spain falls into that same category as Mongolia and America as having overpowered combat bonuses. I've actually had to make a point of setting aside a Prophet until I could actually wipe out Spain because their combat bonus would have made it impossible to fend them off. Very aggravating when playing a religion-focused civ. A civ should not have across-the-board bonuses to combat over other civ's.

Georgia? Well, they don't seem interesting enough to play, but when I think of a civ that has enjoyed a never ending golden age I gotta say, Georgia does not rise to the top of the list. So, it's one of those civ's where the unique ability is just a mechanism representative of nothing.

Having said that, I would like to see heroic ages nerfed so they only provide two dedication bonuses. Then, let Georgia have an extra dedication bonus for golden and heroic ages.

 

[Jkchart]

I would go so far as to say Spain falls into that same category as Mongolia and America as having overpowered combat bonuses. I've actually had to make a point of setting aside a Prophet until I could actually wipe out Spain because their combat bonus would have made it impossible to fend them off. Very aggravating when playing a religion-focused civ. A civ should not have across-the-board bonuses to combat over other civ's.

Georgia? Well, they don't seem interesting enough to play, but when I think of a civ that has enjoyed a never ending golden age I gotta say, Georgia does not rise to the top of the list. So, it's one of those civ's where the unique ability is just a mechanism representative of nothing.

Having said that, I would like to see heroic ages nerfed so they only provide two dedication bonuses. Then, let Georgia have an extra dedication bonus for golden and heroic ages.

Georgia is actually a top tier Diplo Victory player when done right. I stopped playing Tamar as a religion victory contender and used religion as a supplement to DV with culture as a backup. I had something like...16 diplo points from playing well with CS allies before there were even Diplo Victory votes in the congress? I do like your idea though for Georgia.

I also agree on Spain. Spain can be very OP if they have a religion.

 

[acluewithout]

This would make Cree too strong in terms of early rush and nearly guarantee golden are, so it would require lowering base strenght of okhis. They are more expensive (max 3? turns more to build) BUT free promotion so no penalty on either hills or woods, so they quickly level with others in terms of exploration. Cree are perfectly balanced civ now and no reworks here please .

Fair enough. Reasonable minds will differ, but I don’t think Cree having a starting Scout would be unbalanced. It’s not all that different to Aztec starting with an Eagle Warrior (albeit I’m saying Cree would get both their starting Warrior and their Scout). On higher difficulties, the free unit would wash out. For multi-player, I’d be surprised if one unit made that much difference at least as compared to starting next to Monty or War Carts.

To my mind, the unique leader and civ abilities feel like something I could get from a modded civ. Tacking on some extra yields for aqueducts next to rivers is very basic, and doesn't really make me play them any differently than I would any other civ. Everyone likes to build cities by rivers.

Baray should be a unique replacement for the aqueduct that provides fresh water as a regional effect. The Khmer aren't notable for settling cities the same places everyone else settles cities. They're notable for producting huge populations in jungles and marshes where supplying potable water would normally be a kiss of death (the water infrastructure breaking down is probably what did them in, but in this franchise we don't deal with the pesky elements of civilization in decline).

And maybe something like they can use religious unit charges like they were military engineers, to get those aqueducts built faster.

Also, lower cost on domreys. No point in having a beefy unique unit and then upscaling the cost of that unit so the player won't actually get to build many of them before they're obsolesced.

I’m okay with Khmer and play them a bit. I wouldn’t say their bonuses are “bland” - they are fun to build tall with - but yes, their bonuses could be a bit punchier. And their Aqueduct thing does sometimes feel a bit like a poor full-price version of Roman Bath.

Spain can be very OP if they have a religion.

I’m loving Spain!

Just a thought, but buffs aside I could see some Civs, particularly Religious Civs, being indirectly buffed if FXS rebalance Religion in the next patch (which I think they might) or depending on any new mechanics a future DLC etc introduce.

 

[ehecatzin]

I agree with everybody on the civs that could use a buff to keep them fun:

Mapuche
I'd honestly wouldn't go into giving them better partisans, good spies is France's thing, however, as other have noted the raid and unit killing is hardly ever enough to make a city rebel (unless it was already on the way to rebelling), If anything I'd like to further the raiding playstyle sort of what they did for Norway, just make pillaged improvements gain a new tick of loyalty loss for every turn they stay pillaged (could be exponential), that way you can actually play a war of attrition with the Mapuche, sure loosing a couple of units might not be a problem...but those loyalty ticks could amass fast if you don't take control of your frontier.

Georgia
I don't think they need a buff either, It's the awkardness of renaissance walls, make them avalaible earlier and cheaper.The other thing is also how bad is the game at informing you what are your CS up to, I've always found it so awkward how a protectorate war is not automatically declared if somebody attacks a CS you are suzerain off, at least give us the option to warn other civs that an attack on your vassals...I mean allies means war.

Khmer
How about giving them faith per turn for a city founded on fresh water? just to make sure they get to the pantheons / beliefs they need.

Canada
Honestly haven't played them enough...they seem so bland, other probably got better ideas on how to fix them

 

[bengalryan9]

Canada
Honestly haven't played them enough...they seem so bland, other probably got better ideas on how to fix them

Here's something a little outside the box... but what if they were kind of like Sweden, only they make special emergencies available instead of special competitions. Any game that has Canada in it has a list of 3-4 new emergencies they can call for once they've met Canada. Since Canada benefits from emergencies and they can't always be counted on to occur, this might be an interesting buff for them.

Maybe... an emergency when tiles are lost to coastal flooding? Emergencies when someone get X number of techs/civics behind? Espionage emergencies?

 

[Bitterman]

Your would have to balance those new emergencies with the ones from Sweden, in case they both are in the same game.

 

[bengalryan9]

Your would have to balance those new emergencies with the ones from Sweden, in case they both are in the same game.

Good point, though that would make for a very crazy/active game where things were probably always going on.

 

[ThunderLizard2]

Who said there's going to be another update? Looks to me like Civ VI is done as far as Firaxis goes. My question is when will they release the dll code so modders can fix the AI for them?

 

[Matthias Corvinus]

Who said there's going to be another update? Looks to me like Civ VI is done as far as Firaxis goes. My question is when will they release the dll code so modders can fix the AI for them?

Not likely due to what the developers have said and recent updates on steam DB. Furthermore, this thread is for the discussion of civ buffs/wishes for buffs and assumes there is going to be an update in the future.

Also, I just played a game as Georgia to see how weak they really were - they definitely still need a buff, like most religious civs. I think adding starting techs akin to civilization 4 would help out religious nations a lot since many of then rely on pantheon bonuses to sync with their abilities.

 

[steveg700]

I agree with everybody on the civs that could use a buff to keep them fun:

Mapuche
I'd honestly wouldn't go into giving them better partisans, good spies is France's thing, however, as other have noted the raid and unit killing is hardly ever enough to make a city rebel (unless it was already on the way to rebelling), If anything I'd like to further the raiding playstyle sort of what they did for Norway, just make pillaged improvements gain a new tick of loyalty loss for every turn they stay pillaged (could be exponential), that way you can actually play a war of attrition with the Mapuche, sure loosing a couple of units might not be a problem...but those loyalty ticks could amass fast if you don't take control of your frontier.

Georgia
I don't think they need a buff either, It's the awkardness of renaissance walls, make them avalaible earlier and cheaper.The other thing is also how bad is the game at informing you what are your CS up to, I've always found it so awkward how a protectorate war is not automatically declared if somebody attacks a CS you are suzerain off, at least give us the option to warn other civs that an attack on your vassals...I mean allies means war.

Khmer
How about giving them faith per turn for a city founded on fresh water? just to make sure they get to the pantheons / beliefs they need.

Canada
Honestly haven't played them enough...they seem so bland, other probably got better ideas on how to fix them

Canada is no longer considered a weak civ by most accounts, I think it's safe to say. Some say they're tier-1. They're all right in my book, mechanically. Thematically, don't get me started on Mounties and hockey rinks.

As for Protectorate Wars, you can declare a Protectorate war immediately after denouncing (no five-turn wait), so that seems to offer most of the utility of auto-DOW'ing (and offers the significant advantage of it being at our discretion, not the aggresor's). Agreed that civ's should be able to ask for a promise to not attack their suzerained CS's. And highly problematic that allied civ's can perform grievance-inducing actions while their allies have to just suck it up and wait for the alliance to expire.

The thing about the Khmer, in regards to keeping them thematic, is that they had fresh water (or at least, potable water) problems due to their location (swampy jungles). They're notable for overcoming them via engineering. If they actually "need" specific pantheon beliefs to be viable, I tend to think that's what begs addressing.

 

[Ziad]

I won't complain if they reduce the cost of Move Capital by 25-50%.

It's fine for balance right now but it would open up some more fun strategies if it were lower.

 

[steveg700]

I advocate Government Plazas being a per-continent district rather than per-civ. That would be a boon for Phoenicia. Then maybe Phoenicia gets a cheap project to switch capitals to where another plaza is.

 

[The googles do nothing]

There are a couple of abilities I would swap.. Roosevelt's +5 home continent bonus would be swapped with Curtin's 100% receiving war declaration production bonus. Canada get's Russia's blizzard immunity. Russia blizzard immunity is replaced with the ability to move their capital during wartime to a city with a lava with a 1 turn project.