whoknows01 - C3C Training on Monarch - Conq/Dom

[Mach]

I'm at work, so I can't look at the save, but...

Along the river by the other wheat is a good spot. Also you could consider sw of Techno, somewhere along the coast -- that spot will be a low corruption core city. Maybe we should settle that one first, to get a military factory going. The wheat site toward the english would come next.

Would you like to post a new dotmap for us, lullaby? I could do one after work, if you don't...

 

[Lullaby]

I edited my former post with the first dotmap. Here's the second one with the area west of Tenoch.

Yellow dot: on BG, not good
Red dot: not on coast, next to a volcano, but could directly work both BG
Blue dot: on coast, could work both BG after expansion, but far away and would need roading through mountains

I tend to take the space closer to opposing civs to deny them the possibility to grow. But then I'm a builder, and here we might as well let them settle and take the land afterwards

I tend to use the yellow dot or the flood plane place from my first dotmap.

 

[Lullaby]

double post

 

[Mach]

Nice. I agree with the two red dots -- one by the wheat, one on a bg on the coast. I don't like wasting the bg either, but losing the bg is better than placing the city next to the volcano. The wheat city will have nice food, and will be a jumping off point for us against the english.

As far as which to settle first, I still prefer the coastal core city. It'll be productive for us once we get it up to size, and the earlier we settle it, the earlier it'll be productive. We should have another settler for the wheat spot soon enough. But I'll leave it up to you, Lullaby -- they're both good spots, I'll be happy whichever comes first.

 

[predesad]

IMHO, it is better to settle on a bg than next to a volcano, especially since this is a core city, if it was a corrupt city where we needed every shield we could get to get some production i might reconsider, but we're talking 4 tiles from the capitol and i dont think we can risk the havoc form the volcano. Also. one of my civ pet peeves is settling one tile from the coast, a harbor makes those coast / sea squares really good for commerce, although they could be worked by other cities.

the flood plains down there is also an excellent site for a city, just flip a coin, lullaby

i am disturbed by the "reluctance" to go to war and i will reiterate what I have already said, if lullaby or TCS (assuming he is back to play his turn) do not go to war then when i get the turn i am . I think we will be in plenty good shape by then. lullaby, no pressure to get things ready for me

 

[Lullaby]

Turn 1, 1225 BC revisited
Settler moving to BG west of Tenoch

IBT: nothing special

Turn 2, 1200 BC
Moving troops to the eastern border
Some scouting

IBT: nothing special

Turn 3, 1175 BC
Tenoch Warrior -> Warrior (at size 5 we can build them in 1 turn)
Teoti Warrior -> Archer
Texcoco Warrior -> Archer
Moving troops to the eastern border
Some scouting

IBT: nothing special

Turn 4, 1150 BC
Tenoch Warrior -> Settler
Founded Xochicalco west of Tenochtitlan. Production set to barracks, due in 10
Moving troops to the eastern border
Some scouting
Replaced spearman in Tenoch with warrior

IBT: finish road to horses
Korea wants 22 gold from us. I decline. They don't declare. Would've answered the question for our first victim.

Turn 5, 1125 BC
Calix Warrior -> Warrior
Traded with Vikings Map making and 10gp for Poly and HBR. Best trade I could make to get MM
Changed production in Teoti to Horseman
Some more troop movement towards the east

IBT: nothing special

Turn 6, 1100 BC
Tlaxcala Barracks -> Archer
Moving troops

IBT: research of Literature finished
Will research Republic next. We should be able to trade for Math and Republic will get us the rest.

Turn 7, 1075 BC
Trade Literature for Math and 80gp to Byzantines
Tenoch Settler -> Warrior
This Settler will move east to replace any chinese city that gets automatically razed
We now have 9 Archers and 1 Spearman ready at the eastern border. Time to get going.

By the way, a freaky white haired guy named Chichatoyotl spawned in our capital. Says he can build a Great Wonder in no time (well, short time).
Actual options:
Pyramids
Colossus
Lighthouse
Great Lib
Oracle
Artemis
Mausoleum

I'm for Artemis. This will automatically expand our borders and make keeping captured cities much easier. The Lib would be the other obvious choice.

 

[Mach]

a freaky white haired guy

Looks like a good job so far Lullaby!

Earlier we had agreed on not buliding AA wonders, and I think we should abide by that. As much as I would love Artemis...

So that leaves us with three options
1.) Save him for later, Sun Tzu, or even Leo's. But I think while we keep him, we can't get a military leader, which is bad. (I could be wrong about this, though. I'll try to look this up later...)
2.) Use him for that scientific golden age thing. I've heard this was broken, but early on in my playing I used this and I thought I saw some effect... Better than nothing.
3.) Disband him.

What does everyone else think?

 

[china444]

Definitely gonna keep track of this one, keep it up guys!

 

[predesad]

Great Library gives us little since we are nearly done with the AA, other than being able to turn research off and accumulate gold from now until education

c'mon guys, the obvious choice is to hook up ivory and build SoZ, but of course it is only 200 sheilds, so maybe not so obvious.

I would actually consider only the pyramids of those available, Artemis will expire shortly but could help, the pyramids is pretty powerful and saves the maintenance on already built granaries and i think it is the most powerful choice of those available.

i am against saving for sun tzu because although it would save the maintenance, a barracks is only 20 shields.

i am for Leo's because that is a very powerful wonder and would help us a lot, but if the no military leader thing is true I am against holding him.

i am also for keeping him until chivalry and building KT, if the military leader thing is not true.

i am completely against the scientific age thing, the pyramids is a much better choice and in the long run Leo's would prolly give a much bigger benefit in gold saved, IMHO.

so, to recap, I support: pyrmaids now; Leo's or KT if it will not prevent military leaders to hold the "freaky guy"

1) we need to verify about the military leader / scientific leader thing
2) after aforementioned verification we need to decide what is going to be done with the sci leader, i don't think an adequate decision can be made until this is verified

 

[Mach]

The Leader thing is confirmed. It works like this...an MGL can be created on an elite victory if you don't currently have any leaders of either type. SGLs can always be created.

There is a discussion at apolyton about it...here.

Edit: Oh yeah, I'm all for pyramids too, as long as everyone is ok with building an aa wonder when we said we wouldn't...

 

[rbird]

lurker's comment: The way I see it, getting a wonder via leader isn't much different from capturing the wonder (which I think you are allowing in this game). It doesn't take valuable production away from your cities (well, just one turn), which is the main problem with building them (and the big reason behind learning not to rely on them).

If it were my game, I'd either build the Pyramids (if going for sheer value of the wonder) or find my unhappiest core city and build the Mausoleum, simply because it doesn't give you any sort of huge advantage in the game, but it's moderately useful and allows you to get those military leaders you're looking for. Personally, I hate the ToA because its effects are only temporary. I only build it if I lose out on some other wonder and the shields would otherwise be wasted. The SoZ is nice, but I find it difficult to use the ACs effectively. Probably because I need to improve my warmongering skills (so get on with the fighting, already)!

Bob

 

[whoknows888]

Wouldn't TGL be best for us to catch up in research and stay ahead? Pyramids wouldn't be so bad either, or TAW or Leos. Whoever thinks would benefit us the most go ahead and use the SGL.

 

[predesad]

okay, with the leader thing confirmed i say build SOMETHING now, we don't want to be prevented fropm getting military leaders to build armies. of course, i vote pyramids.

@Mach - the thing about building AA wonders is it is no efficient, there are better things to do with all those turns, if you can capture one or use a sci leader that is a different matter altogether. i don't think the purpose of the game was to completely avoid aa wonders, just we are warmongering (conquest / domination goal) and so we dont need to waste turns / shields on a wonder

@ whoknows: are we behind in tech? maybe i haven't been paying attention, but i thought we were in pretty good shape. between trading and pointy stick research and self research i don't think we're going to have much of a problem keeping up as long as we remember to stop sometime to build libraries and markets

@Lullaby - the decision is pretty much yours and you dont necessarily have to do anything right away because we are not actually fighting, but i reccomend picking a wonder and building it in the most logical place (where cultural expansion would help, and it might be hard to get cities in like near where all those mountains / volcanoes are with the iron but also easy to defend) and park the leader in that city until it is done with its production, no need to waste any shields.

 

[Lullaby]

Fighting will commence in two turns.

As this is a training game, it is more about learning then about winning. Rushing a wonder could destroy at least some of the challenge that leads to learning.

Instead of rushing a wonder, we could rush a lib, horseman or something like that.

As for wonders in general, I usually don't build any of them in the AA, except when going for cultural victory. I learned my lesson at that point.

By the way, we don't have to catch up in science right now. We are equal to egypt and byzantines and while these two will propably research currency and construction, we should go for republic and trade the other two in.

 

[Lullaby]

Turn 7, 1075 BC revisited
Fortified SGL in Tenoch. A wonder should be built in Tlatelolco, close to the iron, and this city is occupied for 3 turns building a granary. Of course, if we were to pick the Pyramids, the efford woud be wasted. But as I make the decision , I think Artemis will be built then.

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 8, 1050 BC
Teoti Horseman -> Horseman, due in 4
DECLARED WAR ON THE CHINESE!
Moving troops into chinese territory near Shanghai
Some scouting
Lux to 10%, Science to 70%, gaining 1gpt

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 9, 1025 BC
Tenoch Warrior -> Warrior
Calix Warrior -> Horseman
Tlatelolco Granary -> Artemis
Hurried Artemis
Some scouting

Destroyed Shanghai killing 1 Spear, losing 1 Archer
We should rebuild it one step closer to us, directly claiming the BG

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 10, 1000 BC
Tlatelolco Artemis -> Worker
Left one Archer as additional garrison at the point where the new city should be built. Moved the stack NW on its way to Tsingtau.
Started building roads to the designated city. Also moved the settler that way.
Lux set to 0, Science to 100, losing 9 gpt per round. With 187 gp in the treasury we can afford that. Republic will come in in 18 rounds.

The next city should be founded within the red circle.
Tsingtau has great potential with two game and numerous BG. A perfect next target.

 

[Mach]

Nice job there Lullaby! I don't have much to say, except I agree with your city placement there.

It's not my place to decide, but I suggest we put TCS on permanent skip until he shows up. He didn't answer my pm, and he's only had one post in this thread, asking to join. But this is up to you, who.

Oh also, should we camp out and wait until Tsingtao grows to size 2 before we take it? With our free temples, the flip risk should be small, and it'll save us a settler. Anybody remember how long ago it was founded?

 

[Lullaby]

Should be at turn 1, 2 or 3 of my turn set. In turn 0 the settler was in that area.

 

[whoknows888]

If TCS1 does not show up within the next few hours or so go ahead and skip him. I don't know if he is still on a business trip or not, but if he does show up allow him to play his turn.

 

[predesad]

i will give him his 24 hours to show up and post a got it before i play, i think that is the right thing to do for now

 

[predesad]

@lullaby - i forgot to say good job on going to war, i pushed for it & IIRC you stated this was a weakness of yours so the archer rush might have been something you weren't really comfortable with

obviously i am upset about the choice of wonders . . . but i will get over it . . . maybe . . . if we capture the pyramids from somebody else soon

i don't think i will go after Tsingtao if i play next because when it does grow to size 2 China will prolly pop rush an archer or spear, so i think i will go after another city and then try to get Tsingtao in peace negotiations, that way i dont have to worry about the auto-raze