Why Ada Lovelace is not a good choice to lead Great Britain

[TheGhostEnthusiast]

It is admittedly an imperfect analogy, but probably the closest I can think of among the currently revealed leaders.

I'd go with Machiavelli, his name also became a common adjective describing... the thing he was famous for contributing to? The wording feels odd no matter what I try, but I suppose it gets the point across.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I'd go with Machiavelli, his name also became a common adjective describing... the thing he was famous for contributing to? The wording feels odd no matter what I try, but I suppose it gets the point across.

Also a good analogy, although one might also claim that most of Machiavellian thinking was very much exactly what Machiavelli himself identified with, whereas I think there is more ambiguity as to exactly what "Sapphic" means now versus what female homosexuality was in Sappho's day.

But I'll take it. None of the analogies are going to be 100% perfect.

 

[untitledjuan]

-Only civ that have two sufficiently distinct leaders we can identify can even get in the game in the first place. Civilizations with no known leaders (Mississippian and other archaeological civilizations) and civilizations that lack additional easily identifiable and documented leader options (Macedon, Gran Colombia) are out, and so are their very well known and Worthy (tm) leaders.

Colombia, when its history as a whole is taken into account, not just the short historiographical period of "Gran Colombia", does have various i teresting leader choices, especially now that leaders are not always heads of State. Policarpa Salavarrieta, women spy and fighter during Colombia's independence, and Santander, Bolívar's VP and later president. Sadly, those won't happen, due to Bolívar being announced.

However, I do find likely that a future Colombia civilization is introduced later on, encompassing not only the Gran Colombia period (1819-1831), but its whole history (1810-present). After all, "Gran Colombia" was never a thing per se, it was just a name for a time period in the history of Colombia, the country never had that name and no one called it "Gran Colombia" until a few decades later, it was just Colombia, it never stopped existing, it just shrank in size, but it was the same Republic of Colombia, same capital, legal system, presidential list, etc. that still exists today and that has existed for 200 years (plus 300 years if you count its colonial history as New Granada).

Detaching Bolívar from it might allow a more culture and agriculture centred Colombian than its Civ6 militaristic portrayal.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Colombia, when its history as a whole is taken into account, not just the short historiographical period of "Gran Colombia", does have various i teresting leader choices, especially now that leaders are not always heads of State. Policarpa Salavarrieta, women spy and fighter during Colombia's independence, and Santander, Bolívar's VP and later president. Sadly, those won't happen, due to Bolívar being announced.

However, I do find likely that a future Colombia civilization is introduced later on, encompassing not only the Gran Colombia period (1819-1831), but its whole history (1810-present). After all, "Gran Colombia" was never a thing per se, it was just a name for a time period in the history of Colombia, the country never had that name and no one called it "Gran Colombia" until a few decades later, it was just Colombia, it never stopped existing, it just shrank in size, but it was the same Republic of Colombia, same capital, legal system, presidential list, etc. that still exists today and that has existed for 200 years (plus 300 years if you count its colonial history as New Granada).

Detaching Bolívar from it might allow a more culture and agriculture centred Colombian than its Civ6 militaristic portrayal.

he could also be a potential leader for panama, venezuela or ecuador civs—while venezuela is unlikely, panama or ecuador could also be interesting (panama particularly with a trade and industrial focus could be cool)

that being said, my best guess is bolivar will be standalone, and we will get argentina as the post-colonial spanish country.

 

[agamemnon_of_the-bronze_]

thanks for signing my rajendra chola for civ 7 petition. it’s clearly the most pressing concern in civ 7 since every civ should have a leader.

FYI, i think the fact there is no mughal emperor leader is even more disappointing. Cannot believe they did not take this opportunity to have Shah Jahan or Akbar.

 

[agamemnon_of_the-bronze_]

We’ve had multiple threads now fretting over the exclusion of England or GB in the base game, and now, it seems, we are doomed to endure further threads critiquing their inclusion in DLC. (Note: it is well understood that Lovelace is not tied to GB in DLC as leaders are separate from civs in VII)

Yeah, free speech yada yada, but I wish we could put a fork in this and move on.

She’s here (in March). She has a fabulous dress on and flowers in her hair, and she’s here to stay.

we just want an actual leader of GB to go with her. she is just not an appropriate choice as their only leader choice. the way they did US with Franklin/tubman should have been emulated here.

To be fully transparent, my concerns about her inclusion have been mollified significantly given Ed's comments about what looks to be a plethora of British Isles content in the pipeline. So it looks like those of us who would have preferred another leader will have our wish granted sooner rather than later.

 

[untitledjuan]

he could also be a potential leader for panama, venezuela or ecuador civs—while venezuela is unlikely, panama or ecuador could also be interesting (panama particularly with a trade and industrial focus could be cool)

that being said, my best guess is bolivar will be standalone, and we will get argentina as the post-colonial spanish country.

Venezuela would seem controversial in our current real-life history. In theory, Bolívar could be a leader for Ecuador and Panamá, however he ruled them as part of Colombia when both Ecuador and Panama were departments (aka. States) within Colombia. Both Ecuador and Panamá (as well as Venezuela) separated from the country that Bolívar wanted to create, which was (Gran) Colombia. It would be like having George Washington leading the Confederate States or Isabella leading Catalonia.

However, Bolívar did rule Perú and Bolivia as president of those countries, which were separate from Colombia, but subordinate to it during Bolívar's presidency. He was, from 1824 to 1827, president of Colombia, Perú and Bolivia, governing everything from Bogotá. Its was kind of a Republican personal union between (Gran) Colombia, Perú and Bolivia.

It'd be cool to finally see Argentina in Civilization, but it would also be great if, at the end of the game development years in the future, every leader got its corresponding civilization and we get to see a less militaristic portrayal of Colombia than the one we saw in Civ6.

(Btw, I guess this is waaay of topic for this thread, maybe we should start one about Simón Bolívar, or South America or whatever.)

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Venezuela would seem controversial in our current real-life history. In theory, Bolívar could be a leader for Ecuador and Panamá, however he ruled them as part of Colombia when both Ecuador and Panama were departments (aka. States) within Colombia. Both Ecuador and Panamá (as well as Venezuela) separated from the country that Bolívar wanted to create, which was (Gran) Colombia. It would be like having George Washington leading the Confederate States or Isabella leading Catalonia.

However, Bolívar did rule Perú and Bolivia as president of those countries, which were separate from Colombia, but subordinate to it during Bolívar's presidency. He was, from 1824 to 1827, president of Colombia, Perú and Bolivia, governing everything from Bogotá. Its was kind of a Republican personal union between (Gran) Colombia, Perú and Bolivia.

It'd be cool to finally see Argentina in Civilization, but it would also be great if, at the end of the game development years in the future, every leader got its corresponding civilization and we get to see a less militaristic portrayal of Colombia than the one we saw in Civ6.

(Btw, I guess this is waaay of topic for this thread, maybe we should start one about Simón Bolívar, or South America or whatever.)

both of peru and bolivia would also be really good choices considering the inca need a better path

 

[Leucarum]

I was surprised to see Bolivar since this felt like the Civ game where Gran Colombia was the best fit and, being honest I doubt we would get both him and (Gran) Colombia - unless Civ7 runs for a decade... Paradoxically I think his appearance makes Argentina far more likely, as we'll definitely get Brazil and probably one other post-colonial south american nation. Maybe the oft-requested Muisca could sub in for the gran colombian region.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I was surprised to see Bolivar since this felt like the Civ game where Gran Colombia was the best fit and, being honest I doubt we would get both him and (Gran) Colombia - unless Civ7 runs for a decade... Paradoxically I think his appearance makes Argentina far more likely, as we'll definitely get Brazil and probably one other post-colonial south american nation. Maybe the oft-requested Muisca could sub in for the gran colombian region.

fwiw, civ 7 feels more designed to last for a longer period of time. (and that’s not even considering that civ 6 was a 9-year game)

 

[RedCourtJester]

he could also be a potential leader for panama, venezuela or ecuador civs—while venezuela is unlikely, panama or ecuador could also be interesting (panama particularly with a trade and industrial focus could be cool)

that being said, my best guess is bolivar will be standalone, and we will get argentina as the post-colonial spanish country.

Three things:

1. I think there is a high likelihood most, if not all, leaders will have clearly associated civs. If not a perfect era match, then a clear continuity that follows from them (ala Confucius or Trung Trac). For Simon, Gran Colombia is begged by that logic.

2. If past Civ games are any indication, the devs have a high propensity of trying to "bring back" every civ. There have been "substitutes" occasionally, which doesn't rule out Argentina, but given that they haven't substituted many civs that does put the odds in favor of Gran Colombia.

3. New Granada extended as far as the Yucatan, so it's not wholly improper for Gran Colombia to involve the Maya. If anything, given the comparative independent streak the Mayan-speaking region is, I think it is quite fair to--if not give them three full eras of civs--conceptually "split" them between "New Spain" and "New Granada." Similarly, the Incan Empire's territorial conquest and Peru's relevance in the Argentinian war for independence allow for them to ride the line between Gran Colombia and Argentina depending on what the devs want to do.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Three things:

1. I think there is a high likelihood most, if not all, leaders will have clearly associated civs. If not a perfect era match, then a clear continuity that follows from them (ala Confucius or Trung Trac). For Simon, Gran Colombia is begged by that logic.

2. If past Civ games are any indication, the devs have a high propensity of trying to "bring back" every civ. There have been "substitutes" occasionally, which doesn't rule out Argentina, but given that they haven't substituted many civs that does put the odds in favor of Gran Colombia.

3. New Granada extended as far as the Yucatan, so it's not wholly improper for Gran Colombia to involve the Maya. If anything, given the comparative independent streak the Mayan-speaking region is, I think it is quite fair to--if not give them three full eras of civs--conceptually "split" them between "New Spain" and "New Granada." Similarly, the Incan Empire's territorial conquest and Peru's relevance in the Argentinian war for independence allow for them to ride the line between Gran Colombia and Argentina depending on what the devs want to do.

gran colombia definitely would not and should not involve the maya

 

[Kyriakos]

I certainly hope that Descartes will never be a leader. He belongs in Sweden, frozen to death ^^
He must have been one of the most (to use an anachronism) choleric web personalities ever.

 

[Patine]

New Granada extended as far as the Yucatan

When was this? I've seen all the old maps.

 

[Lord Shadow]

It'd be cool to finally see Argentina in Civilization, but it would also be great if, at the end of the game development years in the future, every leader got its corresponding civilization and we get to see a less militaristic portrayal of Colombia than the one we saw in Civ6.

Yes please! José de San Martin made a brief appearance in Civ4Col, and he'd be the ideal southern counterpart to Bolívar, hopefully along a Modern Age Argentina.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

One of the (many) reasons that ruined my hype. Who the hell was Ada Lovelace? Apparently she (help me, google...) was an "English mathematician and writer chiefly known for her work on Charles Babbage's (as if I'm suppoused to know who was he) proposed mechanical general-purpose computer, the Analytical Engine."

And that's it? Of all available English monarchs we got her? I have literally no desire to play against some "Ada Lovelace". It looks like classic "something new just for the sake of having something new" is a most likely reason to include her (and other similar "leaders" who've never lead the country) and I don't like it at all.

 

[The_J]

An English monarch would indeed have been better.
She is a very interesting person though. Essentially the first female computer scientist, and also the 2nd computer scientist of all times (right after Charles Babbage). She has an eternal spot in the history of this field.
I don't think that brings her to a good level for a civ game, but she's definitely a person of historical significance.

 

[untitledjuan]

When was this? I've seen all the old maps.

The furthest north that New Granada ever reached was the Mosquito Coast, in the border between modern-day Nicaragua and Honduras. Yucatán was always a colonial province under New Spain in Mexico City.

 

[agamemnon_of_the-bronze_]

An English monarch would indeed have been better.
She is a very interesting person though. Essentially the first female computer scientist, and also the 2nd computer scientist of all times (right after Charles Babbage). She has an eternal spot in the history of this field.
I don't think that brings her to a good level for a civ game, but she's definitely a person of historical significance.

well put.

 

[RedCourtJester]

When was this? I've seen all the old maps.

It does seem to depend on the map-maker, but there are a few maps out there which suggest that New Granada had some degree of influence over the Kingdom of Guatemala. This makes some sense to me given the placement of Merida as a center of operations in New Spain as early as the 1530s, while the gradual conquest and incorporation of New Granada took another two centuries to formalize.

Also, if we were looking for an antiquity "midpoint" that could suffice as an "origin" for both Mexico and Gran Colombia (in the same way Khmer is pulling the weight of the whole of SEA for now), the Maya are about the best you could do. At least until we get some sort of antiquity SA civ: maybe they can stretch the Muisca or Arawak a bit into a civ. Or, if people really are insistent on a Norte Chico antiquity civ, maybe they could at least pair it with an antiquity Guarani civ.