Why All The Hate?

[The_J]

Why would you not want the automatic updates? I find that to be extremely convienent. Sure it may ruin some mods, but can you really blame Steam for that? Patches are usually announced way in advance, giving modmakers enough time to start planning a new version of their mod.

Not every mod maker might be active anymore, and there might be people who really want to play that mod and don't want to update.
And even if the guy is active, it takes time to update a mod.

And as other parts: Ever played a PBEM or a DG here?
Takes months, for DGs years. And then you get an automatic update, and says "Sorry, you're screwed, start over again".

 

[Commodore]

Not every mod maker might be active anymore, and there might be people who really want to play that mod and don't want to update.
And even if the guy is active, it takes time to update a mod.

And as other parts: Ever played a PBEM or a DG here?
Takes months, for DGs years. And then you get an automatic update, and says "Sorry, you're screwed, start over again".

No I haven't played a PBEM or DG. I'm more of a singleplayer kinda guy. I'm not trying to be mean when I say the following: You can't really expect an entire industry to base it's future development and innovation on a minority of its customers. Because, in the end, modders and people who play the game in a unique way (such as PBEM) are the minority and will remain so in the foreseeable future.

Not to mention, things like automatic updates can be turned off. Of course then you won't be able to play the normal multiplayer of a game, but that's nothing new since a user has always had to have the latest version of a game to play online even before digital distribution.

 

[The_J]

No I haven't played a PBEM or DG. I'm more of a singleplayer kinda guy. I'm not trying to be mean when I say the following: You can't really expect an entire industry to base it's future development and innovation on a minority of its customers. Because, in the end, modders and people who play the game in a unique way (such as PBEM) are the minority and will remain so in the foreseeable future.

That's the point then the people say "XY doesn't care about their customers."
True, I'd say.

Not to mention, things like automatic updates can be turned off.

At least for Civ5 it's not true.

 

[Maniacal]

Yeah it doesn't work very well for Civ5 apparently, or it didn't a year ago. It works great for TF2 for me though, no more irritating constant updates.

 

[Commodore]

That's the point then the people say "XY doesn't care about their customers."
True, I'd say.



At least for Civ5 it's not true.

Bu they do care about their customers. It's just that, like a government, they can't please everyone all the time. The best they can do is to gear things so they benefit the largest number of people possible. Does this mean that certain segements of their customer base will be neglected? Sure, but I don't think that should mean that Steam and other distribution services should catch all the static they get for it.

As for the Civ5 not allowing auto updates to be turned off, that may indicate that such a thing is dictated by the developer, and not the distribution service. If that is the case, then again, that is another thing that Steam gets blamed for that really isn't their fault.

 

[Maniacal]

The automatic updates are through Steam and it is controlled in the options for each individual game (right click + properties). There have been many issues with the setting for Civ5 in particular getting reset, not saving, or simply being ignored. Although since it often works fine for other games and people, and it was a Firaxis/2K dev that confirmed it didn't work well with Civ5 it may be that Firaxis just didn't do a great job of implementing it.

 

[Antilogic]

I guess I just must be extremely lucky with offline mode then, because if I don't have an internet connection Steam doesn't even require me to login to go into offline mode. It just says something like "Cannot connect to Steam servers" and then it gives me the option to retry the connection or to start in offline mode and the offline mode works perfectly.

I don't get that option. I keep clicking the offline mode option when I'm in the program, but resets don't work. When I can't connect, I'm not always given the option to go to offline mode. I can't figure out what causes the option to appear or not, and it's really frustrating. I've given up on trying to solve it, I just play my non-Steam games more. And I don't want to buy any other crap that I have to load through Steam because of this problem. It doesn't matter if it costs $20 or $5, it's wasted hard drive space to me if I can't play it when I want to.

Why would you not want the automatic updates? I find that to be extremely convienent. Sure it may ruin some mods, but can you really blame Steam for that? Patches are usually announced way in advance, giving modmakers enough time to start planning a new version of their mod. As for patches not being released on Steam in a timely manner: Again, that's not Steam's fault. If the developer doesn't release the patch on Steam, there is nothing Valve can do about it except keep asking the developer to release the patch for it's users.

Paradox might be unique here, but they typically release beta patches to the community which are "unofficial", so Steam won't update to them. To apply the beta patch, you need to overwrite your game files with the patched file, which Steam will revert to the original [last-released] every time you start the game if you have automatic updates on. Some Paradox games have had different versions of beta patches out without official patches for literally months.

The only solution, as far as I can tell, is to make a second copy of the game on your hard drive outside of Steam, and then apply the patch to this copy. It's not uncommon for people to have two or three duplicate installations of these games on their computers. It's annoying, takes time to set up that could better be spent gaming, and takes up space on your computer.

Not all mod-makers have access to the patched files in advance to update their mods--they usually start when the patch is out, just like everyone else. In that case, I might want to play the original mod for another couple weeks instead of the patched base game, and then download the patched mod. Steam makes this an issue that it doesn't have to be.

 

[Commodore]

I don't get that option. I keep clicking the offline mode option when I'm in the program, but resets don't work. When I can't connect, I'm not always given the option to go to offline mode. I can't figure out what causes the option to appear or not, and it's really frustrating. I've given up on trying to solve it, I just play my non-Steam games more. And I don't want to buy any other crap that I have to load through Steam because of this problem. It doesn't matter if it costs $20 or $5, it's wasted hard drive space to me if I can't play it when I want to.



Paradox might be unique here, but they typically release beta patches to the community which are "unofficial", so Steam won't update to them. To apply the beta patch, you need to overwrite your game files with the patched file, which Steam will revert to the original [last-released] every time you start the game if you have automatic updates on. Some Paradox games have had different versions of beta patches out without official patches for literally months.

The only solution, as far as I can tell, is to make a second copy of the game on your hard drive outside of Steam, and then apply the patch to this copy. It's not uncommon for people to have two or three duplicate installations of these games on their computers. It's annoying, takes time to set up that could better be spent gaming, and takes up space on your computer.

Not all mod-makers have access to the patched files in advance to update their mods--they usually start when the patch is out, just like everyone else. In that case, I might want to play the original mod for another couple weeks instead of the patched base game, and then download the patched mod. Steam makes this an issue that it doesn't have to be.

I don't know what you're experiencing with the offline mode problem, I just know it works fine for me if I don't have a connection. Like I said, if I'm not logged into Steam and the internet goes down, Steam lets me start it up in offline mode without even putting in my login information. And this has been the case with every single game I have purchased through Steam.

The issue with Paradox, as you describe it, makes it sound like Paradox is the one you should be mad at. That method of patching games is highly unconventional and just doesn't work with the new direction distribution of games is taking. Again, this is the developer's fault, not Steam's.

Yes, the modding thing is a problem. There's no avoiding that fact, but like I said, the modders and the people who play them are a minority of the gaming community so it would make bad business sense to cater to the smaller portion of your customer base. This is especially true, if that catering means holding back new developments and innovations that make a dying industry come to life again. Because that's what going back to the old method of distribution would do to PC gaming, it would kill it.

The one advantage PC gaming has over console now, is the fact that it is easier to get the games and store them on your computer and take them with you anywhere you go if you have a laptop. Without that advantage, PC games, while they may be of higher quality, just won't be able to compete with their console counterparts. This was proven in those first few years when better consoles were coming out (PS2, Xbox, Gamecube) and there was no digital distribution. PC sales sagged every year during that time while console sales absolutely exploded. It got to the point where PC releases barely got a mention in any magazine that wasn't specifically dedicated to PC gaming. Once Steam came out and actually caught on with the masses, PC sales finally became comparable with console sales again, and developers, publishers, and the gaming media starting giving a damn about PC games again.

Digital distribution has brought PC gaming back from the brink of irrelevence, and to me that trumps any minor inconvienences that may exist with digital distribution.

 

[Disgustipated]

Steam is okay, I just hate the advertising windows that pop up when you close down the game (sometimes they even open while playing the game). Very annoying. But it does have it's convenience. I don't ever have to worry about my disk getting scratched, and failing. The downside is my internet is slow, and it takes forever to download a game. Much more time than the time it takes to drive to the store and buy one.

 

[Maniacal]

Steam is okay, I just hate the advertising windows that pop up when you close down the game (sometimes they even open while playing the game). Very annoying. .

You can turn them off in the settings menu...

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

I was there, man, I was there in 2004, when Half-Life 2 was released and we had to go through Steam to install and download it. Lemme tell you, when you see your friend break down after a 12 hour process* of just trying to get the game installed...you'll know what to do - remove Steam and never utilise it again.

Except we didn't, 'cos Valve kept working at it and fixing their mistakes. They introduced some incredibly useful features (the ability to chat to friends while playing games is my favourite...even if it does mean Maniacal sometimes says hi), a store with some very sensible pricing systems and (though I realise this may be just personal) some fantastic downloading speeds.

It's not a perfect system, but it's trying it's darndest to be and is still way ahead of most digital distribution systems. It's convenient, it's simple and it's pretty darn brilliant.

*I originally thought it was an 8-hour installation hell, I checked with him and was soundly corrected. Apparently it's still a sore point of his gaming history.

 

[Rub'Rum]

They introduced some incredibly useful features (the ability to chat to friends while playing games is my favourite...even if it does mean Maniacal sometimes says hi)

You mean Maniacal goes like

Maniacal: hey
Maniacal: I'm eating yummy rice
Maniacal: What?! *insert link here*
Maniacal: This rice
Maniacal: is really
Maniacal: delicious
Maniacal: At some point I really cared about this game
Maniacal: but now it's like
Maniacal: glorified flash game
Maniacal: don't care anymore
Maniacal: but this one though
Maniacal: I'll be in my bunk

*Rubrum turns off sound alarms in Steam*

 

[Antilogic]

I don't know what you're experiencing with the offline mode problem, I just know it works fine for me if I don't have a connection. Like I said, if I'm not logged into Steam and the internet goes down, Steam lets me start it up in offline mode without even putting in my login information. And this has been the case with every single game I have purchased through Steam.

The issue with Paradox, as you describe it, makes it sound like Paradox is the one you should be mad at. That method of patching games is highly unconventional and just doesn't work with the new direction distribution of games is taking. Again, this is the developer's fault, not Steam's.

Yes, the modding thing is a problem. There's no avoiding that fact, but like I said, the modders and the people who play them are a minority of the gaming community so it would make bad business sense to cater to the smaller portion of your customer base. This is especially true, if that catering means holding back new developments and innovations that make a dying industry come to life again. Because that's what going back to the old method of distribution would do to PC gaming, it would kill it.

The one advantage PC gaming has over console now, is the fact that it is easier to get the games and store them on your computer and take them with you anywhere you go if you have a laptop. Without that advantage, PC games, while they may be of higher quality, just won't be able to compete with their console counterparts. This was proven in those first few years when better consoles were coming out (PS2, Xbox, Gamecube) and there was no digital distribution. PC sales sagged every year during that time while console sales absolutely exploded. It got to the point where PC releases barely got a mention in any magazine that wasn't specifically dedicated to PC gaming. Once Steam came out and actually caught on with the masses, PC sales finally became comparable with console sales again, and developers, publishers, and the gaming media starting giving a damn about PC games again.

Digital distribution has brought PC gaming back from the brink of irrelevence, and to me that trumps any minor inconvienences that may exist with digital distribution.

So I should be mad at Paradox because the "offline mode" and "disable automatic updates" in Steam don't work as advertised?

I've compared PC gaming to console gaming as craft beers against your Bud Light/Miller/Coors before. I care little if gamers wanting to play FPS decide to buy them on consoles over PCs, thus swaying a large market share to the consoles. They can have the watered-down tasteless stuff. PC gaming has always been the home of niche markets that simply will not disappear unless personal computers themselves disappear (highly unlikely). Games like those that Paradox or AGEod produces don't work well with console controls--you can't put them on a console and retain the same quality as the PC version. I'd also say you can't put Civ4 on a console. Fake edit: don't bring up Revolutions, it is a pathetic substitute and proves my point.

I also think you underestimate the modding community. A small community may make them, but even mainstream games like (yes, I know I'm reaching back a little here) Rome: Total War or Battlefield 1942 have very successful mods out that a sizable fraction of the community plays.

 

[croxis]

First, a history lesson:

Games required activation for a very long time. The early drm in cdrom games would check the disk name or a couple of files every time the game started up. Once consumer cd-r drives started proliferating more robust checks were used. Safedisk, securerom, and some others used some interesting techniques such as hidden, illegal, or "bad' sectors on the cd that couldn't be replicated easily in a simple rip-burn copy. Not all cd drives or drivers were able to detect these drm tricks, especially older drives, forcing users to plop down $50-100 for a new cd drive just to play they game they bought. One, named Starforce, was reported to actually physically damage and brick some cd rives.

It is also somewhat funny how all these complaints about steam parallel the old ones:

New: "I travel alot so I don't have internet access on the plane"
Old: "I travel alot and don't want to carry all these cd cases around and have the disk checking waste my laptop battery." (optical drives are some of the big battery suckers)

New: "I don't want to lose access to my game is steam goes under."
Old: "I don't want to lose access to my game if my disk breaks, I can't even make a backup!"

New: "I don't want to pay for internet just to activate my single player game that I bought."
Old: "I don't want to pay for a new cd-rom drive just so I can play the game that I bought."

 

[PhroX]

The only real issue I have with Steam is the ridiculous prices they charge for new games - I can usually get a physical copy from somewhere like Amazon for about a tenner less. So I only buy stuff from Steam if it's on sale.

 

[Maniacal]

The only real issue I have with Steam is the ridiculous prices they charge for new games - I can usually get a physical copy from somewhere like Amazon for about a tenner less. So I only buy stuff from Steam if it's on sale.

You should be happy that you can get it on Amazon.uk for less than on Steam. Most of the prices in Canada & the USA I've checked are more or less the same.

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

You mean Maniacal goes like...

...*Rubrum turns off sound alarms in Steam*

I see you don't reply to him either.

 

[Akka]

Simple Question: Why does there seem to be so much animosity toward Steam?

It's an intrusive DRM that tramples your rights.
If that's not enough to justify the hate for someone, then he's just another example of short-sighter people who don't look past superficial conviencen, or he's been brainwashed by the industry into believing they have all rights and he's just a peon to be abused.
Both cases aren't really something to be proud of.

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

It's an intrusive DRM that tramples your rights.

What rights?

'Cos you know you had to agree to give up your freedom of speech to join this very site, right? And that (whisper it) you don't actually have to buy games that has DRM you disagree with?

 

[PhroX]

You should be happy that you can get it on Amazon.uk for less than on Steam. Most of the prices in Canada & the USA I've checked are more or less the same.

Wow...Over here, it's not just online retailers who undercut Steam (although they are the cheapest)...even bricks and mortar stores are usually £5 less. Steam sells games at their RRP usually, but the gaming retail industry here has always sold things for less than that...

Basically, games have sold for £30 for ages (though I can remember when they were £25), with online retailers knocking £3-5 more off that, then along comes Steam and basically says "we want you to pay more, and we're not even going to give you a physical copy". Kinda annoying...