Why am I too stupid to understand corporations?

[mrt144]

But again, higher population in FM/Merc than in SP. Population = points, more GPP. That needs to be included in the balance.

SP also means: devoting time to constructing workshops instead of farms or cottages (or ripping up farms and replacing them with cottages when you switch.)

But corporations also means constructing the courthouses and losing a GP to do so. And SP also has the advantage of being conceptually 'easier'. There are a lot of factors to contemplate in making a corporation work properly. With SP, you know what you're going to get, and don't have to devote as much time to thinking through the strategy. A simple plan is probably superior to a complex plan because of the likelihood of it being implemented correctly and efficiently. At least, that's my gut reaction to all of this -- it's hard to quantify all the variables that go into a Civ game, of course.


I guess bottom line is that corporations are "viable" under the current rules -- in the right circumstances, assuming that you've laid the groundwork for it, and assuming you don't go crazy spreading it in your own cities, and assuming that no one else starts spamming your cities with corporations, and assuming you can spread it around in some friendly foreign civs/vassals (assuming they're not running and/or switch over to SP or Merc,) and assuming that whatever resource is provided is one that you definitely want/need to have in the quantities that it is provided. The problem is (to echo someone -- I think it was mrt,) I was expecting corporations to be desirable, generally, much like religion is. All the conditions applied to desirability of corporations...well, just aren't fun. Even if I don't found a religion or intend to follow a religion-based strategy, I don't mind when religions are spread to my cities -- it can be helpful to do so, even though the religion's founder is also benefitting. I was hoping that corporations would similarly echo this mutually-beneficial relationship far more than they seem to. I was expecting corporations to be something everyone should ideally want a piece of and if you can't get to them, or if you wanted to pursue a more militaristic/domination-oriented strategy and not worry about such things, here's the SP/CS synergy to give you a fighting chance. Instead, we have corporations which you can break even on if you're willing to juggle things to be just right. It's almost like corporations were designed by people who were overly enamored of existing strategies concerning the use of SP, and so sacrificed the desirability of corporations so that they didn't have to change their preferred strategy.

If Firaxis does not alter the corporate model at least a little, I will definitely be interested in seeing what evolutionary changes the mod community can come up with.

this sums up everything in a nice little package. corporations work in certain circumstances but have no huge advantage over SP when these circumstances are present. SP works in almost any circumstance that corps do, plus the ones it doesnt.

 

[mrt144]

Oh yeah, I forgot I said that. It's definitely fairest to pair it with US. Rush-buying is the obvious thing to do if we're running SP. Don't forget, though, that we could now drop the science rate so we're producing roughly the same number of beakers as under Merc, and use any extra gold to rush hammers. I imagine we'll have better production than Merc then (whether that's Merc with or without US), and my understanding was that production was our priority here. Discussing that further would get complex though, since we'd have to look at the rest of the empire more carefully - other cities might stand to gain or to lose from US, and it'd be complicated.

I'm pretty much in agreement that corps are working out okay for your empire.

I noticed the map settings. I wish we could have seen this on Normal Map setting or possibly even large because the effects of corps scale to map size.

 

[aelf]

I guess bottom line is that corporations are "viable" under the current rules -- in the right circumstances, assuming that you've laid the groundwork for it, and assuming you don't go crazy spreading it in your own cities, and assuming that no one else starts spamming your cities with corporations, and assuming you can spread it around in some friendly foreign civs/vassals (assuming they're not running and/or switch over to SP or Merc,) and assuming that whatever resource is provided is one that you definitely want/need to have in the quantities that it is provided. The problem is (to echo someone -- I think it was mrt,) I was expecting corporations to be desirable, generally, much like religion is. All the conditions applied to desirability of corporations...well, just aren't fun. Even if I don't found a religion or intend to follow a religion-based strategy, I don't mind when religions are spread to my cities -- it can be helpful to do so, even though the religion's founder is also benefitting. I was hoping that corporations would similarly echo this mutually-beneficial relationship far more than they seem to. I was expecting corporations to be something everyone should ideally want a piece of and if you can't get to them, or if you wanted to pursue a more militaristic/domination-oriented strategy and not worry about such things, here's the SP/CS synergy to give you a fighting chance. Instead, we have corporations which you can break even on if you're willing to juggle things to be just right.

I don't think so. In that game, I chanced upon the corp quite casually. As you can see from the screenshots, I had already settled a GE in my capital because I kept getting them and had no wonder to rush for a long time. Then I researched Railroads because I was going for Combustion and then Industrialism for tanks. And when I got another GE I realised that he could build Mining Inc. So I gave it a try and found that it added 11 hammers (I didn't have that many resources yet then) for 23 gpt in my designated Wall Street city. This was in 1806. Mining Inc. cut the full construction time of Wall Street from 26 to 16 turns immediately after that. I liked it, so I decided to spread it to my capital (which had the Ironworks) later.

Heh. I sound like I'm in an advert for Mining Inc.

 

[aelf]

I noticed the map settings. I wish we could have seen this on Normal Map setting or possibly even large because the effects of corps scale to map size.

It's actually worse on smaller maps.

 

[mrt144]

It's actually worse on smaller maps.

because of the benefit multiplier or because of the amount of resources?

 

[wayne07]

The 2 pop can be whipped if necessary And they give more flexibility because they can be assigned as specialists to fit whatever plan I have for the economy. Don't discount them completely.

I say the differences between FM and SP are so small at this stage of the game, they are quite negligible. Doesn't that prove that corps are a viable alternative? And when the corp was first founded, inflation wasn't so high. I took an example from a point where the game is almost concluded.

GPP from 2 specialists is not going to impact your GP growth greatly. But if you want to include that in, it is fine though.

I don't see it as small unless you show me the city income screenshot. 5 turn vs 3 turn ecology can mean 500+ beakers difference. 500+beakers vs production differences per turn. Assuming you switch to SP as soon as you have them, you can probably tech faster, produce maybe at 1-2 turn slower for some units/buildings... if this is the case, won't SP be better? and it gets better as time goes by because of the inflation factor....

Oh well, there is a lot of ifs. This game is not won by using solely SP or using corp anyway. Its by using superior military tactics.

Anyway, to clarify.... i hate corp because i now need to do so many things now for me NOT to use SP.

1. Need to try to get dominance earlier. I can't see surviving that corp cost if i have a smaller empire. I am used to some final warfare when i have tanks to get land. Now, with the slower speed to tanks.... i need to prioritised communism to avoid getting hurt by corp and to get a win before 1950s.

2. Need to try found as many corporation as possible to avoid it getting into AI hands. If the AI has it and is spreading while i do not have communism... i need to either close borders or switch to merc and losing my dearest trade routes....

3. I no longer include corp in my plans sadly because i need beakers more than hammers :-(

Sigh... so much to do.

 

[mrt144]

Anyway, to clarify.... i hate corp because i now need to do so many things now for me NOT to use SP.

1. Need to try to get dominance earlier. I can't see surviving that corp cost if i have a smaller empire. I am used to some final warfare when i have tanks to get land. Now, with the slower speed to tanks.... i need to prioritised communism to avoid getting hurt by corp and to get a win before 1950s.

2. Need to try found as many corporation as possible to avoid it getting into AI hands. If the AI has it and is spreading while i do not have communism... i need to either close borders or switch to merc and losing my dearest trade routes....

3. I no longer include corp in my plans sadly because i need beakers more than hammers :-(

Sigh... so much to do.

1. Corps might not be useful for all victories (but SP can be)
2. This is a flaw in the way things are calculated cost wise and the fact that the AI isn't spreading them or being clever with them. This wouldnt be a problem if foreign corps weren't so damaging.

This complaint only has merit on the basis that foreign corps in your lands is much more harmful than warrants at this point. The entire premise of the FM/Merc/SP/Closed borders debate should be a matter of "how much do i let them spread their corp before i want them to stop" vs. "should i even allow them in the first place (which it is now). and how do i stop them."

3. I want to try them out to see if there is a silver lining.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

because of the benefit multiplier or because of the amount of resources?

These are supposed to cancel out, so it is roughly the same on all maps. (However, if inflation is unaccounted for, it will probably skew badly in later years.)

 

[aelf]

These are supposed to cancel out, so it is roughly the same on all maps. (However, if inflation is unaccounted for, it will probably skew badly in later years.)

I heard that costs are multiplied more than they should in smaller maps.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I say the differences between FM and SP are so small at this stage of the game, they are quite negligible. Doesn't that prove that corps are a viable alternative?

do you mean the output difference is so small? Or that the difference of the benefits when considering the costs is small? Executives and founders aren't cheap either.


Also, you say 1934 is the end game. Well, maybe it is this time, but since the game goes on another 100 or so turns it strikes me as silly to argue that that settles it.
the question is, for most players, will they be likely to spend more time under corporations in the high inflation period some time after your screenshots, or the lower inflation period just before your screenshots?
I can't speak for most players, but I'd say later, personally, especially since spreading corporations takes time, so they will have more cities in the later period than the early one.
Until they learn that if they play late, they must plan ahead and forgo corporations and open borders with those who use them, or else inevitably switch to state-property. Sure, maybe this is one more bit of "strategy" to learn, but I still don't think it is the best way.

 

[jkp1187]

I don't think so. In that game, I chanced upon the corp quite casually. As you can see from the screenshots, I had already settled a GE in my capital because I kept getting them and had no wonder to rush for a long time. Then I researched Railroads because I was going for Combustion and then Industrialism for tanks. And when I got another GE I realised that he could build Mining Inc. So I gave it a try and found that it added 11 hammers (I didn't have that many resources yet then) for 23 gpt in my designated Wall Street city. This was in 1806. Mining Inc. cut the full construction time of Wall Street from 26 to 16 turns immediately after that. I liked it, so I decided to spread it to my capital (which had the Ironworks) later.

Heh. I sound like I'm in an advert for Mining Inc.

aelf,

Well, I've only taken one game to completion I also founded Mining, Inc. in that game. I ended up putting it in just two of my five cities. Unfortunately, due to a paucity of cities, I never got Wall Street (needed seven banks,) but I did have three colonies (it was the first game; I was Joao and went a little crazy creating colonies,) so I spammed their cities with the corporation. As expenses increased as the game went on, I kept spreading it to other civs -- trying to grow my way out of inflation. It did seem to work, even without Wall Street. Justinian founded Creative Constructions and spammed it throughout his empire and didn't seem worse for the wear. Mansa, however, spammed Mining, Inc. once I opened up a franchise and he was struggling to keep up in tech afterward. At one point, it was taking him 500 turns to research plastics. I don't know if he was trying for a cultural win (Timbuktu did achieve Legendary Status,) but whatever it was, it didn't work out for him. (The game went on to be a culture win by Pericles, who had a huge empire, and ran State Property throughout the entire 'corporate era'.)

EDIT: The tragedy of the game was that I desperately needed oil, and had to end up paying Chruchill 160 GPT just to get it -- all the while I was desperately hoping to pop a scientist so I could found Standard Ethanol. (Never happened.) I can't say that my corporate experience was bad necessarily.

I will continue to give corporations a whirl, just to see how things work out for now. I'm definitely interested in seeing how Sid's Sushi and Cereal Mills work. I am just worried at the posts indicating that, by the numbers, it's uncertain how often corporations may be the 'optimal' answer. I have two games going right now (one a succession game with a friend,) so I might try the inflation mod that someone posted recently and see how they compare.

 

[jkp1187]

How do Firaxis explain the maintenance expenses? Why would it cost the government to get domestic corporations in their cities? Even foreign corporations are usually beneficial for a country, aren´t they? Sure, Coca Cola and McDonalds may not represent good culture or healthy products, but I don´t think they have damaged the economy of cities/countries which they have established in.

Sure, there needs to be balance and trade-offs, but there must also be some kind of realism in a feature, right?

It's almost like they're modeling corporations as they would work if they were all owned and operated by the state.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I will continue to give corporations a whirl, just to see how things work out for now. I'm definitely interested in seeing how Sid's Sushi and Cereal Mills work. I am just worried at the posts indicating that, by the numbers, it's uncertain how often corporations may be the 'optimal' answer. I have two games going right now (one a succession game with a friend,) so I might try the inflation mod that someone posted recently and see how they compare.

Don't let these conversations prevent you from trying for yourself! You might find a good way to use them, or good evidence that a change would be better. Either way you'd have a better idea than taking someone's word for it.

 

[aelf]

Or that the difference of the benefits when considering the costs is small?

Yes, at that (late) point in the game.

Executives and founders aren't cheap either.

They aren't expensive either

Also, you say 1934 is the end game. Well, maybe it is this time, but since the game goes on another 100 or so turns it strikes me as silly to argue that that settles it.

It doesn't, but so far I have shown corps are not useless compared to SP, right?

the question is, for most players, will they be likely to spend more time under corporations in the high inflation period some time after your screenshots, or the lower inflation period just before your screenshots?
I can't speak for most players, but I'd say later, personally, especially since spreading corporations takes time, so they will have more cities in the later period than the early one.
Until they learn that if they play late, they must plan ahead and forgo corporations and open borders with those who use them, or else inevitably switch to state-property. Sure, maybe this is one more bit of "strategy" to learn, but I still don't think it is the best way.

I'm wary of opposing things that are counter intuitive at first glance. It's a bit like city/distance upkeep when Civ4 was still new. Before that, the strategy of the day was REX. Wasn't it a little counterintuitive that getting as many cities as possible quickly was harmful? Of course, this isn't the perfect analogy, but you get my drift?

I think corps definitely have a window of opportunity that you can make use of. However, you seem to be saying that most players will miss that window. That might be true, but most players also play on Prince and below, where inflation isn't that much of a problem. I suspect they are able to use corporations once they learn that they should just spread their own to a few selected cities while spreading it to as many foreign cities as possible.

 

[jkp1187]

I'm wary of opposing things that are counter intuitive at first glance. It's a bit like city/distance upkeep when Civ4 was still new. Before that, the strategy of the day was REX. Wasn't it a little counterintuitive that getting as many cities as possible quickly was harmful? Of course, this isn't the perfect analogy, but you get my drift?

I think corps definitely have a window of opportunity that you can make use of. However, you seem to be saying that most players will miss that window. That might be true, but most players also play on Prince and below, where inflation isn't that much of a problem. I suspect they are able to use corporations once they learn that they should just spread their own to a few selected cities while spreading it to as many foreign cities as possible.

aelf,

I agree with you generally (although I actually thought the nerfing of REX was quite intuitive, but no matter.) Once the 'window of opportunity' passes, however, what then? Does everyone end up in State Property (or Mercantilism)?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I'm wary of opposing things that are counter intuitive at first glance. It's a bit like city/distance upkeep when Civ4 was still new. Before that, the strategy of the day was REX. Wasn't it a little counterintuitive that getting as many cities as possible quickly was harmful? Of course, this isn't the perfect analogy, but you get my drift?

I think corps definitely have a window of opportunity that you can make use of.

Odd. Generally, I think the game should be as intuitive as possible, and this isn't really first glance.

Many people say they don't want corps to be "mindlessly spammed". Besides being a strawman, it's also kind of untrue, if it implies that you are against a "one perfect strategy", where deviation is impractical.

Because that's what is, at the moment. There is one way to use corporations effectively, and that is to hardly use them. One or two of your cities, as many rivals as you can afford. Make sure you have the right civics and buildings, and be prepared to abandon them later if you don't win soon enough. This strategy fairly unavoidable.

It's simply that you want to make sure the one workable strategy is not what people expect based on the hype surrounding corporations.

edit: I'll happily admit that you show a situation where mining inc is useful. And I find the feature fun! ... but not perfect, and possibly fatally flawed for my long-term enjoyment.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Out of curiosity, what if one considers the Food Producing corps? Increasing the amount of a food a city has access to is one of the most difficult things in the game; it's the aspect that most excited me about corporations. How much extra food can a city get, and will the extra tiles worked/specialists gained make up for the costs?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Depends on the resources you get how much food you get back, of course, but it isn't too hard to get 4-6 extra food. Whether Cereal Mills or Sid's Sushi will get you more depends on the map, since health resources are quite map dependant.
With that food you can work more mines or specialists. It's be easy enough to get 3*6, or 18 extra beakers under representation, maybe upped to 31 with the right buildings. Or you could use merchants or spies, or engineers if you have industrial parks, if you prefer.

The great merchant that founded that corporation could have gotten you an immediate 1200 or so gold, instead, so it will take awhile for the trade off to be worthwhile. (Less so if own the corporate HQ, which can get up to 15 gold per city) It also takes a bit of gold and hammers (not too much, I agree) for each executive you want to use to spread the corp.

Maintenance will eventually become more costly than what you earn by having these specialists in your city though (due, as has been said, to inflation) At that point you start to eat into what profits you've earned already, and probably want to change to SP. I'm not sure what this date is--this may make all the diffference.

 

[mrt144]

the easy way to state the problem is that domestic corps you own provide you 2:3 benefits to cost, corps you spread abroad that you own are 1:0, and ones that are foreign owned and in your territitory provide 1:3 benefits to cost.

within these aproximate ratios it's easy to see why spreading so many at home is a bad idea, why spreading them abroad is a good idea, and why foreign ones in your territory are really bad (and why the AI suffers horribly by spreading them themselves)

Im working on a large expanded equation that will hopefully resolve these issues (and ironically enough it might just be reducing inflation and bringing the costs to close to 2)

 

[homan1983]

Alright, I shall give you one with US + CS + SP:

No idea why the output is only 202 hammers now. Oh, well. It's nicely equal to the output under FM Research is also similar to that of Rep + FM, except with slightly less gpt. So there you go - corps are a viable alternative to SP + CS. I would say it is better at this point because you are not locked into a set of civics.

Great job aelf thanks.
I have no idea either why its lower either, however if I were to nitpick then I would dump the 3 farms and replace with workshops.

But you must undertand 3 things:
- even now expenses are dropped significantly and hence other sliders are different.
- corporation keeps getting worst and worst due to bad scalability but SP/CS stays the same
- according to your honourable self even, corporations should be selectively placed, but we also know that CS/SP will apply to all cities

As a counterpoint (yes I even argue with myself):

- not every city can have nice city plots for full workshops, those cities are pefect for either sid sushi or mine corp.

One thing that astounds me is people who are asking why I prefer CS over emancipation.
I assumed that it was self explanetary. There is real synergy between CS and SP, what would be the point of emancipation under a State Property government?

I would have thought it obvious that emancipation is best in cottage economies because of the cottage synergy.