Why am I too stupid to understand corporations?

[Nikis-Knight]

And aren't we talking about how corporations are only really expensive late in the game and on higher difficulty levels, since inflation is the cause of this? So it may be somewhat broken under specific conditions. That does not explain why you guys think that corporations are completely useless and not worth the effort.

Sure it does, if we want to play challenging games into the late game (which is what the expansion is about, after all.) Nobody is saying, or at least not me, "they have to remove corp maintenance", just, "it really seems like late game inflation screws over corps, which would otherwise be much fun."

 

[jkp1187]

edit: and as it was pointed out in another thread, don't use Advanced start to test corporations. I did this before, and thought they were quite effective. However, the inflation when you get corps using advanced start will be much less than you would otherwise, and it will make this arguement look silly. But corporations should be balanced for games starting from the beginning as well as renaissance era!

That makes me wonder if a coding error was made, where the rates that ordinarily should apply to advanced starts are applying to normal game starts as well?

And is the consensus that but for the deleterious effects of inflation toward the end, corporations are otherwise a fine addition to the game?

 

[klokwerk]

It just shows the typical way people choose to play. Now, though, you don't benefit from corporations under State Property, so you do have to think twice sometimes.

Actually it's wrong you benefit from corps under SP. You still earn gold for the FOREIGN cities (from civs who are not in State Property) where you expanded the corps YOU founded BEFORE you switched to SP

It just show the typical way people talk about things they didn't fully test.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

And is the consensus that but for the deleterious effects of inflation toward the end, corporations are otherwise a fine addition to the game?

I think the consensus is that but for this, they would be a valid strategy to use your own corporations domestically here and there, and *maybe* useful to spread foreign corporations sometimes as well. (depending on what exacctly was changed; what point on the inflation curve is the intended price?)

 

[wayne07]

Very similar based on what? Based on the way you think they should work or based on the way they do work? (As the work now, they are similar but with fundamentally different strategies and approaches.)

If the flaw at the very core of my logic is the assumption that when I pulled the game out of the box and installed it that it was complete and working-as-designed, then I am entirely guilty of just such a flaw.

If the flaw at the very core of my logic is that I use every means available to gain the most out of my Corporations, then I am equally as guilty of that flaw.


When I first started playing BtS, I liked the look of Corporations, so I first set out to determine how they work and how best to make them profitable.

Basically all I did before I made that post was figure out the mechanics so I could use them to my advantage.

In doing my research, I determined that for nearly every weakness in the current model, there is also a corresponding strength to act as a counterbalance.

So far, I haven't seen all the problems other people are seeing. I keep spies handy for necessary Civic-influencing, prioritize my small cities for incorporation and spread my corporations to Vassals & Colonies first.

Whether this is a flaw or not, I don't know. I wasn't on Firaxis' design team, so I have no clue what they intended to do with Corporations. All I know is that the game I picked up and took out of the box is so far treating my Corporations well.


And no, not every city has to be a self-sufficient microcosm. If this were the case, then we would never specialize any of our cities, because we would immediately see each microcosm of a city cannot sustain itself. Everything has had a balance in the past games, so I felt it safe to assume Corporations and the high Domestic costs also have a balance -- that balance being Foreign Offices.


I also never said the AI doesn't misuse or misunderstand Corporations. I honestly haven't paid enough attention to their Corporate (mis)use to feel like I can make a call either way, so I have said nothing about the way the AI spreads Corporations except that I haven't seen anything yet that would lead me to believe they are bankrupting themselves with Corporations.

In the end, I'm not really supporting or rejecting the current Corporate model. If it's wrong, great. If it's right, great. If they change it for the hell of it, great. I'm simply saying that based on my games so far and the research I've done into the mechanics, Corporations are not the demon they seem to have been made out to be this past week.


BTW, we've all had BtS about the same amount of time. Some have surely played more than others but we're all relatively in the same boat. So I have to ask, who are these "people without experience"? Are we not playing the same game?

What level are you playing at and are you winning the games you are talking about with corporation nicely figuring in your plans and not converting to SP because of the cost?

 

[aelf]

Sure it does, if we want to play challenging games into the late game (which is what the expansion is about, after all.) Nobody is saying, or at least not me, "they have to remove corp maintenance", just, "it really seems like late game inflation screws over corps, which would otherwise be much fun."

How about all that time before the late game when the first corporations become available? And how late is late?

Here are some screenshots from a game of mine:

I was paying 66 gold for 23 hammers in my capital. Do I think that that's a good investment? Looking at the list of recent wonders in the city, yes. And I'm researching Ecology so I believe this qualifies as late game. This is also on Emperor and I was playing on a small map. My research rate was not that bad, despite the fact that I was also paying quite a bit of distance maintenance since I was not running State Property.

A look at the economy overall:

Yes, inflation was a killer, but corporation payments weren't such a great deal. Of course, I didn't spread my corporation like crazy, only doing so in a few cities, but I did have a few Creative Constructions branches in captured cities (a full half of that cost is from them). As a factor of the overall cost, corporation payments were really quite manageable, even though this was late in the game. And the benefits were tangible.

Actually it's wrong you benefit from corps under SP. You still earn gold for the FOREIGN cities (from civs who are not in State Property) where you expanded the corps YOU founded BEFORE you switched to SP

It just show the typical way people talk about things they didn't fully test.

Alright, smartie. That is one thing that looks like it needs some fixing. I was under the impression that State Property abolishes everything that has to do with corporations Or at least that was the intention.

 

[wayne07]

There are 3 situations in which Free Market would be good:

- When the other founders of corporations are not beside you
- When you are more advanced than your opponents, such that they you are founding corporations earlier than them
- When you have founded all the non-competing corporations

To put it simply, there may be a golden window of opportunity in which Free Market would benefit you. This is worth considering, especially if you are Spiritual.

If you do not meet any of these 3 conditions or are starting to see foreign corporations spread rapidly within your neigbours' empires, your should run Mercantilism or State Property. Of course, if you have managed to be saddled with lots of foreign corporations, you would have no choice but to run State Property, but that is your fault.

hmmm, so you agree that you can't run away from state property if corporations are founded by AI? Isn't that an issue?

 

[klokwerk]

That makes me wonder if a coding error was made, where the rates that ordinarily should apply to advanced starts are applying to normal game starts as well?

And is the consensus that but for the deleterious effects of inflation toward the end, corporations are otherwise a fine addition to the game?

Exactly, this difference in inflation between advanced starts and normal games should be put in bug reports ! This is maybe the key to solve the problem...

And yes, I think that if not for the corp maintenance, corps are certainly a fine addition to the game.

 

[wayne07]

Aelf. I think you can hit much higher research with state property and complete that dam at the same time...... you should do a comparison.

Without and with state property....

10% production from state property pretty much give you some hammers as well

 

[mrt144]

How about all that time before the late game when the first corporations become available? And how late is late?

Here are some screenshots from a game of mine:

I was paying 66 gold for 23 hammers in my capital. Do I think that that's a good investment? Looking at the list of recent wonders in the city, yes. And I'm researching Ecology so I believe this qualifies as late game. This is also on Emperor and I was playing on a small map. My research rate was not that bad, despite the fact that I was also paying quite a bit of distance maintenance since I was not running State Property.

A look at the economy overall:

Yes, inflation was a killer, but corporation payments weren't such a great deal. Of course, I didn't spread my corporation like crazy, only doing so in a few cities, but I did have a few Creative Constructions branches in captured cities (a full half of that cost is from them). As a factor of the overall cost, corporation payments were really quite manageable, even though this was late in the game. And the benefits were tangible.



Alright, smartie. That is one thing that looks like it needs some fixing. I was under the impression that State Property abolishes everything that has to do with corporations Or at least that was the intention.

why isnt the AI putting corporations in your territory?

 

[aelf]

hmmm, so you agree that you can't run away from state property if corporations are founded by AI? Isn't that an issue?

That's not exactly what I said. I laid down the conditions very clearly.

Aelf. I think you can hit much higher research with state property and complete that dam at the same time...... you should do a comparison.

Without and with state property....

10% production from state property pretty much give you some hammers as well

Done.

Immediately after a switch to SP:

After Worldbuildering some workshops in to get production up to a comparable level:

City is seriously starving and we are still a few hammers short while losing some commerce. And all the gold saved contributed to decreasing the number of turns to research Ecology by one (increasing the science slider another 10% to cut another turn off would cost 75 gold a turn). Whoopdeedo.

I'm not saying State Property wouldn't be a good civic at this stage of the game. It's just that corporations are a viable alternative (not forgetting its cost, GE sacrificed and all) with its own benefits.

 

[aelf]

why isnt the AI putting corporations in your territory?

I didn't let them get to that point.

 

[mrt144]

I didn't let them get to that point.

why didnt they take ones you had in their territory and spread them back at you? they should have immedietly gone merc, created as many execs as possible in a 10-20 turns, and settled them in your cities.

 

[mrt144]

That's not exactly what I said. I laid down the conditions very clearly.



Done.

Immediately after a switch to SP:

After Worldbuildering some workshops in to get production up to a comparable level:

City is seriously starving and we are still a few hammers short while losing some commerce. And all the gold saved contributed to decreasing the number of turns to research Ecology by one (increasing the science slider another 10% to cut another turn off would cost 75 gold a turn). Whoopdeedo.

I'm not saying State Property wouldn't be a good civic at this stage of the game. It's just that corporations are a viable alternative (not forgetting its cost, GE sacrificed and all) with its own benefits.

3 turns for 3 georges extra but less research time or more commerce to spend on ESPIONAGE of corp using civs? how are these screenshots making a good example for corporations?

 

[aelf]

why didnt they take ones you had in their territory and spread them back at you? they should have immedietly gone merc, created as many execs as possible in a 10-20 turns, and settled them in your cities.

I was running Mercantilism. I did consider switching to Free Market, but the anarchy put me off it (I didn't have Cristo Redentor at that time).

Anyway, they wouldn't have that chance to do that because I captured all their cities with the only corporation founded besides mine before they could even spread it much. I simply didn't give them the chance because I didn't wait till late game to dominate them. That would make life extremely difficult on Emperor in many other ways that are worse than getting saddled with foreign corporations.

 

[aelf]

3 turns for 3 georges extra but less research time or more commerce to spend on ESPIONAGE of corp using civs? how are these screenshots making a good example for corporations?

Ugh. Can you look at the descriptions properly? Nevermind. For your benefit...

(A) With Corporations and not under State Property:

(B) Under State Property:

(C) Under State Property and reconfigured city plots to match production level in (A), with science slider adjusted:

 

[andrewlt]

The problem of corporations to me is that you need to be very judicious in spreading corporations to your own cities but spreading your corporations to AI cities is mostly a no-brainer.

 

[jkp1187]

That's interesting. The city is suffering massive starvation, and clearly won't be able to sustain all of those specialists...and yet, it went from +0 GPT to +656 GPT. That is not insignificant. Is it worth 656 GPT to maintain the population at the higher level?

 

[mrt144]

Ugh. Can you look at the descriptions properly?

did you switch to caste system?
you created an artificial system where you were measuring greater hammer output.
the growth was greater, empirewide research was the same, the commerce was higher...

you rigged the shots based on measuring hammer production for one city and ignored the entire benefit to your empire. and 3 extra turns for 3 gorges is something that doesnt hurt that much. it is an expensive project.

 

[aelf]

That's interesting. The city is suffering massive starvation, and clearly won't be able to sustain all of those specialists...and yet, it went from +0 GPT to +656 GPT. That is not insignificant. Is it worth 656 GPT to maintain the population at the higher level?

What is that 656 gpt worth? One or at most two turns off each technology. After all the Representation specialists have been lost due to starvation, the beakers gained would be even fewer. And why did I even bother founding Mining Inc. in this game? Because I needed production. At this point in the game, I was way ahead and aiming for domination. Hammers > beakers.