Why are Great Scientists, Engineers and Merchants still on the same counter?

[Alzadar]

This seems like a pretty big oversight by the BNW team. They made the very smart decision to not only split GWAM counters from the other three, but also to make each of Musician, Artist and Writer have their own counter as well.

This is a much better system - if I want a Great Artist I've fill Artist slots, and I don't need to worry about a Great Musician being born somehow delaying the Great Artist.

But for some reason Engineer, Scientist and Merchant are still shackled to each other, which basically means that unless you're Venice you never ever want a Great Merchants. Very unfun system.

 

[chazzycat]

engineers would be OP if there was no tradeoff with scientists.

 

[Simplicity2]

On the other hand, you shouldn't be like "Oh a Great ... Merchant. DAMMIT!"
The tradeoff is a little too large there, I think. I'd prefer these guys on separate counters as well. Even if it meant that they needed some power reduction.

 

[FeiLing]

the tradeoff is that you still need to put specialist in there to get them... it's just 1 accidentally spawned engineer/merchant won't make your next scientist impossible.

Most importantly though are the "free" great persons from liberty finisher, maya long count, porcelain tower, mean tower of pisa which absolutely aren't free at the moment as they will increase the counter. That of course may stay, but if engineers, scientists and merchants were off different counters it would greatly enhance the experience of getting a free great person as it then actually would feel like it was 'free'. (could choose an engineer for e.g. without increasing scientist counter).

Most annoying thing though is with puppets - they can easily cause a great merchant to appear because they ll always build markets/banks and immediately assign specialists there all the time. Hate it.

 

[Montov]

engineers would be OP if there was no tradeoff with scientists.

Just having the Great Merchant on a separate counter would be an answer to that, and it would make GM not a drag anymore.

 

[troublmaker]

Weird my puppets always go for science. Must be based on what type of civ you have or something along those lines.

I personally feel like there are too many great people in these games and the effects of all the great people wonders diminish so heavily because of just how many you seem to get.

 

[chazzycat]

Just having the Great Merchant on a separate counter would be an answer to that, and it would make GM not a drag anymore.

hmm, I see the GM counter basically as a balancing tool for puppets. But they got hit pretty hard with the 5% tech penalty, maybe it's not needed anymore.

 

[EscapedGoat]

Sadly, the guys at Firaxis don't seem to understand "fun" all that much. Of course having them on separate counters would be great and increase player options! Rebalance if needed.

The "free" GPs are another example - making them increase the GP counter is just plain not fun. The Babylonian free GS at writing is actually free (does not increase counter) so it is possible to do it within the game engine.

 

[CraigMak]

I think that the GE and GS are both so strong that getting one should deter the other. However the GM should not affect them. That way getting a GM would not be the worst thing ever. Also the free GP you get from liberty or leaning tower, porcelain tower etc. should not reset the GP count. Some times it's not even worth it to build those wonders because your GP is 5 - 10 turns away.

As for Maya, they're way strong and deserve the detriment when they get free GP.

 

[Alzadar]

I think the best would be to split all the counters, slightly nerf hammer rush and bulbing and also buff Customs Houses and Manufactories. More Great People, but with actual choices about what you do with them.

 

[Kopiok]

Weird my puppets always go for science. Must be based on what type of civ you have or something along those lines.

I personally feel like there are too many great people in these games and the effects of all the great people wonders diminish so heavily because of just how many you seem to get.

There definitely are too many great people spawns. The other problem is that there are too many of the same great people spawns because there's no incentive to diversify you specialists or great people generation priorities. If spawning a great merchant is going to decrease the number of great scientists you get, then there's no reason to ever go for a great merchant given how powerful the scientists are. Then you end up with 5 great scientists waiting around to science bomb while getting nothing out of any other great person.

A solution I would propose is to separate the great person counters and increase their cost to ~200 points with ~200 points added per spawn (of course, those numbers would need to be balanced in testing and wouldn't necessarily be 200 exact).

That way you actually have meaningful choices to make when choosing specialists, rather than just throwing them all at great scientist point. You may say "I can throw them all at and get a GS in 50 turns, or I could split them between and and get a GE in 40 turns and some /turn, and a GS in 70 turns while missing out on some /turn". You may also be able to arrange it so that you get a GE right when you are able to build a key wonder later in the game, rather than never using them at all. With fewer singular type great people spawns there would also be fewer instances of other players science-boosting and less of an obligation for you to do the same just to keep up. You'd be obligated to time when your GP spawns to play to a certain advantage, getting a GE early for a early wonder vs. late for a late wonder or getting a GS early to get ahead in science for early UB/UU/UI vs. late to get a larger lump-sum science.

The overall change being that people get roughly 1-2 of each Great Person throughout the game, but when they need them most for their particular situation rather than everyone rushing GS all game every game.

 

[Browd]

I wouldn't confuse putting GWAMs on separate counters with the continued bundled treatment of GE/GS/GMs.

Since each civ is limited to 2 specialist slots for each GWAM, putting them on the same counter would REALLY limit cultural victory and place an even greater emphasis on faith buying of GWAMs (already pretty important) and getting "free" GWAMs from the Liberty finisher and Leaning Tower.

In contrast, a player can have as many as 4 specialist slots for each type of GE/GM/GS and can spam those specialist buildings across all of their cities.

 

[EscapedGoat]

I wouldn't confuse putting GWAMs on separate counters with the continued bundled treatment of GE/GS/GMs.

Since each civ is limited to 2 specialist slots for each GWAM, putting them on the same counter would REALLY limit cultural victory and place an even greater emphasis on faith buying of GWAMs (already pretty important) and getting "free" GWAMs from the Liberty finisher and Leaning Tower.

In contrast, a player can have as many as 4 specialist slots for each type of GE/GM/GS and can spam those specialist buildings across all of their cities.

Yes, that sounds reasonable in theory, but in practice, great scientists dominate the game, and we all know this! Why generate a great merchant.... Ever? Excluding Venice of course...

Now, Firaxis are never going to be able to balance these great people, so making separate counters so you can utilize them all would be great.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well to balance the Great merchants, they should all be given the 2x trade mission that Venice 's MoV get (maybe reduce the gold a little.. say make it 50% boost)

 

[Vidszhite]

Well to balance the Great merchants, they should all be given the 2x trade mission that Venice 's MoV get (maybe reduce the gold a little.. say make it 50% boost)

OR you can get full Commerce and suddenly Great Merchants are amazing (2000 gold trade missions, can buy an army with that), AND you can faith buy merchants that don't increase your GSEM counter. Commerce isn't even bad if you go to war often, since it makes your Caravans better than 80% of your cargo ships, makes puppet empires with trading post spam worth a mint, and caravans are easier to defend besides. Even better, the AI rarely goes Commerce, so you get Big Ben all to yourself.

Merchants of Venice are supposed to be better, because Venice can only produce things in their capital, and are 100% reliant on gold. Venice can't win ANY of the World Congress competitions, and there's no way to build anything else while constructing a wonder. Regular Great Merchants aren't even bad, they're not not as game-changing as Scientists and Engineers... unless you have full commerce.

 

[Antarion]

merchants are great if u have alot of diplomacy around. settle 2-3 down as long as you make your way through the commerce tree and let your trade routes start in this town with the high gold output. caravans can do nearly that effective as cargo ships if u have every tile improved with an gold generatings improvement. (settle the merchants especially on tiles which normally cant improved to offer you gold like iron, horses, stones and so on).


the problem with money aka gold is its not that straight forward as science or production. its the jack ass of all trades (rush buying, city states, research agreements)

 

[PhilBowles]

This seems like a pretty big oversight by the BNW team. They made the very smart decision to not only split GWAM counters from the other three, but also to make each of Musician, Artist and Writer have their own counter as well.

This is a much better system - if I want a Great Artist I've fill Artist slots, and I don't need to worry about a Great Musician being born somehow delaying the Great Artist.

But for some reason Engineer, Scientist and Merchant are still shackled to each other, which basically means that unless you're Venice you never ever want a Great Merchants. Very unfun system.

They did more with artists that just split them off, though. They tied production to a national wonder, with a cap of 2 specialists. They'd have to revise the other GP systems along similar lines if they wanted to split them - Great Works of Science in place of the current science specialist slots, for example. All three are on the same counter because they're all generated in the same way. Being able to fill 4 specialist slots per city for each GP type, and be able to do that for three different GP types, would be excessive.

 

[VSorceress]

Hmm I'm learning some fascinating stuff here... just one quick question.

Is the counter for the Scientists/Engineers/Merchants the same counter for each City or overall empire?

 

[Vidszhite]

Hmm I'm learning some fascinating stuff here... just one quick question.

Is the counter for the Scientists/Engineers/Merchants the same counter for each City or overall empire?

Overall empire, I'm pretty sure, otherwise Wide players would be ramming out great people much faster than usual.

 

[evilcat]

It is not a major problem for me. It could be probably done better, but nothing to complain. What is annoying that Great Scientist and Engineer are much better than Great Merchant. Which results in hit to commerce, while buff for tradicion. Im not sure if nerfing GS and GE will do better, since that would hit other stuff like Order space part rush.

Probably just great merchant should be on separate counter, and just admit it is a inferior. And make liberty finsher free. Mayas do not need to. Some other aproach is to nerf hurry bubling. So we will be more tempted to plant them down.